Spoilers Strange New Worlds Episode 7 - Those Old Scientists

[Noname Given]

Damn. I was wrong. "Woman" is BAD you say?

No no no no no. The "breaking canon" is not that the Gorn no longer look like Ted Cassidy in a lizard suit. (YES I know he wasn't in the suit! This is NOT my first rodeo. I've BEEN to Vasquez Rocks. For NEARLY HALF AN HOUR!)

The breaking of canon is Kirk's befuddlement at "something called a Gorn". From what we've seen so far (and who knows what's coming next) the very name "Gorn" should have produced a reaction more like "HOLY Q - er, HOLY TRELANE! That's the thing that nearly killed SAM!" Or even "Hey! Gorn! Those buggers are always sneak attacking human bases and outposts. Doesn't that just figure!"

For all we know Ted Cassidy In a Suit was some misshapen defective Gorn that would fit perfectly in line with the SNW Gorn life cycle. Totally fine.

And I don't even care about the breaking canon bit. It's just annoying when there are people (some of them even WOMEN*) who say "Oh no, it all still lines up. It's fine." For one thing, if it all lined up we wouldn't have the writers telling us "Story is more important than canon."

Hey, isn't it cool that Orions have science vessels?

(* The reference to "women" here is in a purely satirical context. Star Trek has a diverse fan base with obsessive nutters of all races and sexes.)

Or... Kirk was confused because what he knows of the actual Gorn from Starfleet reports conflicts with what he's experienced in the episode.

(And IMO, the actions the Gorn were able to take in TOS S1 Arena pretty much indicate they must have encountered Federation ships and personnel prior to their assault on Cestus III. About the only question I would have is why if Federation Command knew about the Gorn, it wouldn't disseminate that information more widely throughout the fleet.)

 

[Farscape One]

Or... Kirk was confused because what he knows of the actual Gorn from Starfleet reports conflicts with what he's experienced in the episode.

(And IMO, the actions the Gorn were able to take in TOS S1 Arena pretty much indicate they must have encountered Federation ships and personnel prior to their assault on Cestus III. About the only question I would have is why if Federation Command knew about the Gorn, it wouldn't disseminate that information more widely throughout the fleet.)

Considering the Gorn were not only able to fake the Commodore's voice and say enough in those communications to fool Kirk, the Gorn definitely encountered Starfleet before "ARENA".

One does start to wonder if Cestus III was another P'Jem monastery situation...

 

[Tallguy]

One does start to wonder if Cestus III was another P'Jem monastery situation...

That's an ENT reference, right? Enhance, please.

 

[Farscape One]

That's an ENT reference, right? Enhance, please.

Yes, from "THE ANDORIAN INCIDENT" in season 1.

The Vulcans were using an old monastery on P'Jem to conduct secret long range surveillance and spying on the Andorians. The equipment was well hidden, but Archer found out it and had T'Pol scan it with her tricorder and gave it to Shran, who was there searching for what he and the Andorians believed was a spy facility... and he was right. (He did keep Archer, T'Pol, and Tucker captive while searching the monastery, though.) It was the start of the friendship of Archer and Shran.

I was wondering, given what SNW presents us with, could Cestus III have been Starfleet having a secret surveillance facility to keep an eye on the Gorn? Kirk may not even have known about it.

 

[Tallguy]

Yes, from "THE ANDORIAN INCIDENT" in season 1.

The Vulcans were using an old monastery on P'Jem to conduct secret long range surveillance and spying on the Andorians. The equipment was well hidden, but Archer found out it and had T'Pol scan it with her tricorder and gave it to Shran, who was there searching for what he and the Andorians believed was a spy facility... and he was right. (He did keep Archer, T'Pol, and Tucker captive while searching the monastery, though.) It was the start of the friendship of Archer and Shran.

I was wondering, given what SNW presents us with, could Cestus III have been Starfleet having a secret surveillance facility to keep an eye on the Gorn? Kirk may not even have known about it.

(All because someone called Mariner "the woman"! Thank goodness Irene Adler didn't show up!)

An interesting idea. But that wasn't the Gorn captain's complaint. It was strictly territorial. Whereas in ENT it was the express suspicion that the Pointies were spying, right?

It's fine. I have a sneaking suspicion that we're going to be talking about this more next week in a more appropriate topic. Unless April's tidbit in the opening episode is playing for episodes that we won't see for years at this point.

I haven't watched this week's episode yet and as a rule I don't watch previews.

 

[Farscape One]

(All because someone called Mariner "the woman"! Thank goodness Irene Adler didn't show up!)

An interesting idea. But that wasn't the Gorn captain's complaint. It was strictly territorial. Whereas in ENT it was the express suspicion that the Pointies were spying, right?

It's fine. I have a sneaking suspicion that we're going to be talking about this more next week in a more appropriate topic. Unless April's tidbit in the opening episode is playing for episodes that we won't see for years at this point.

I haven't watched this week's episode yet and as a rule I don't watch previews.

I don't do spoilers, either. Everything I mentioned is from a previous series or season 1 of SNW.

And while the Gorn in "ARENA" was pissed at it being a territorial issue, I was thinking that a possible reason why Starfleet would help establish a colony there in the first place was for covert spying, whether the Gorn suspected it or not.

And since I do know what the title of the season finale is, this is pure speculation...

Spoiler: Season 2 finale speculation

The episode is called "Hegemony", which is what the Gorn call themselves. Seems like the Gorn will feature here.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

(All because someone called Mariner "the woman"! Thank goodness Irene Adler didn't show up!)

She's THE Woman. Completely different thing.

 

[Tallguy]

I don't do spoilers, either. Everything I mentioned is from a previous series or season 1 of SNW.

To be clear, that was a random shout since we were moving into not yet watched / not afford territory. Certainly nothing directed at anyone. But thanks for understanding. All good. I need to stop reading the internet now.

 

[Farscape One]

To be clear, that was a random shout since we were moving into not yet watched / not afford territory. Certainly nothing directed at anyone. But thanks for understanding. All good. I need to stop reading the internet now.

No worries. I didn't take your statement as being directed at me. I'm also of the mentality of avoiding spoilers as best as possible. (In this era of the internet and commercials, it's increasingly difficult to stay spoiler free.)

 

[jackoverfull]

I was wondering, given what SNW presents us with, could Cestus III have been Starfleet having a secret surveillance facility to keep an eye on the Gorn? Kirk may not even have known about it.

forgetting for a moment about SNW, Arena had some peculiar implications.

First and foremost, it’s clear that Kirk and at least the enterprise bridge crew have no clue about the Gorn. Which is an issue with SNW, as at least Uhura and Spock should know about them (and Kirk too, as it’s unlikely he didn’t know about his brother’s dealings with them).

Secondly, it’s on the other hand obvious that the Gorn know A LOT on the federation, enough to lure the enterprise with a believable fake transmission.


Which brings to the point that the moral implications at the end may be not as straightforward as intended: if they know that much about the federation they should know that they are also peaceful. Of course this may bring to the different moral sensitivities in different societies, which is also interesting.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Plus there seem to be at least 3 different subspecies of Gorn (TOS/LDS, ENT, SNW) and not just one monolithic empire. Makes sense, as there are now canonically different Klingon and Romulan types, so why not different Gorn types? All quite deadly in different ways.

 

[Farscape One]

Plus there seem to be at least 3 different subspecies of Gorn (TOS/LDS, ENT, SNW) and not just one monolithic empire. Makes sense, as there are now canonically different Klingon and Romulan types, so why not different Gorn types? All quite deadly in different ways.

True.

I still think "ARENA" hasn't quite been retconned... at least, not yet. The Gorn weren't identified until Kirk was on the planet, and the bridge crew had no way of seeing them until the Metrons allowed it much later during the chase on the planet.

Spock not being able to identify the ship as Gorn immediately could simply be it was a brand new class of ship... or one not seen by Starfleet yet, anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

True.

I still think "ARENA" hasn't quite been retconned... at least, not yet. The Gorn weren't identified until Kirk was on the planet, and the bridge crew had no way of seing them until the Metrons allowed it much later during the chase on the planet.

Spock not being able to identify the ship as Gorn immediately could simply be it was a brand new class of ship... or one not seen by Starfleet yet, anyway.

I've gone over the episode and don't see the retcon in the same way, save for Kirk's line about "a creature called the Gorn." Which apparently according to many here, should cause bowel loosening terror, unless there has been other reports indicating something else than just the youth problem.

Regardless, I don't take it as a full retcon as such nor as a problem for continuity as it stands.

 

[Farscape One]

I've gone over the episode and don't see the retcon in the same way, save for Kirk's line about "a creature called the Gorn." Which apparently according to many here, should cause bowel loosening terror, unless there has been other reports indicating something else than just the youth problem.

Regardless, I don't take it as a full retcon as such nor as a problem for continuity as it stands.

Regarding that line by Kirk...

He may never have encountered them, or read any reports about them. So far, Starfleet seems to be keeping them as a classified species, so it's quite possible Kirk just didn't have high enough clearance during the events of SNW, and his postings between now and TOS never put him in a scenario where he would be in contact with the Gorn. Even up to his assignment as CO of the Enterprise, Starfleet might not have deemed it necessary for him to be briefed about them yet.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Starfleet seems to keep a lot of things classified that shouldn't be, I've noticed. Keeping things classified from getting out into the general public or potential enemies' intelligence collection systems is one thing. Keeping things secret from their own people within their own chain of command is stupidly dangerous.

for example, the events in DSC involving the sentient AI Control, the Mirror Universe and other related incidents was simply a plot device to maintain the awkward rifts in continuity that would otherwise occur, but should probably still be known by all starship captains (The Omega Directive comes to mind here). If tactical and strategic information on the Gorn were discovered and subsequently classified for undisclosed reasons, the blood of the Cestus III colonists are on the hands of the Admiralty, as well as any consequences for not informing its captains of the threat they were dealing with once the inevitable future confrontations ensued from border expansion.

 

[cooleddie74]

And that goes all the way back to before the founding of the Federation. After the NX-01 returns from the mission to stop the Xindi superweapon from being used Starfleet Command and Admiral Forrest are all like, "WHAT Delphic Expanse? What happened to you in there never officially happened."

 

[Farscape One]

Starfleet seems to keep a lot of things classified that shouldn't be, I've noticed. Keeping things classified from getting out into the general public or potential enemies' intelligence collection systems is one thing. Keeping things secret from their own people within their own chain of command is stupidly dangerous.

for example, the events in DSC involving the sentient AI Control, the Mirror Universe and other related incidents was simply a plot device to maintain the awkward rifts in continuity that would otherwise occur, but should probably still be known by all starship captains (The Omega Directive comes to mind here). If tactical and strategic information on the Gorn were discovered and subsequently classified for undisclosed reasons, the blood of the Cestus III colonists are on the hands of the Admiralty, as well as any consequences for not informing its captains of the threat they were dealing with once the inevitable future confrontations ensued from border expansion.

To be fair, it seems Starfleet keeps more things classified in the 23rd century than the 24th. Either a shift in philosophy, leadership, the fact the Federation has expanded FAR more in those 100 years, or any combination of the above made them a bit more relaxed about classifying things down the road.

 

[fireproof78]

I believe the phrase in the intelligence and classification community is "need to know."

 

[Phoenix219]

So after 2x03, and now this one, I think we can safely say that this is 100% not the TOS timeline.

Time travel was unknown, impossible, and there were no temporal agencies, temporal rules or any understanding that any of this was even possible, in Kirk's time, let alone a decade earlier. Now, we have something almost identical to the Guardian of Forever being found years earlier among many other retcons that are in direct conflict of TOS. This show is set after the Temporal Cold Wars, and everyone knows about time travel.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So after 2x03, and now this one, I think we can safely say that this is 100% not the TOS timeline.

Time travel was unknown, impossible, and there were no temporal agencies, temporal rules or any understanding that any of this was even possible, in Kirk's time, let alone a decade earlier. Now, we have something almost identical to the Guardian of Forever being found years earlier among many other retcons that are in direct conflict of TOS. This show is set after the Temporal Cold Wars, and everyone knows about time travel.

Nope