Stigma

[borgboy]

In this episode T'Pol implies ( or possibly flat out says ) that she only mind-melded when she was forced. The way I remember it she initially agreed to mind-meld willingly, and it was only when her "partner" tried to push the emotional issue that she attempted to end the meld and he forced it to go deeper. So am I remembering it wrongly or did TPTB try to slip a rewrite in that T'Pol really was "innocent" of breaking the Vulcan taboos against mind-melds. I really like T'Pol in this episode, and she's great as always when dealing with Vulcan intrigue. Her noble insistance on refusing to reveal she was forced on moral grounds is great ...except I don't think she was forced, was she?
Scott Bakula did a great job railing against bigotry in this episode, and my girl Jolene was also great in dealing with her illness and the social problems caused by the taboo, but it does annoy me that TPTB had the nerve to make such a stand while still refusing to even acknowledge that gay people exist, with the possible exeption of a couple of hot bi-curious Trills on DS9. Overall I like the episode but the hypocricy of TPTB really rubs me the wrong way, although I will grudingly give my adroval that at least Archer gets to say that all human bigotry was left behind in the last century.

 

[JiNX-01]

In this episode T'Pol implies ( or possibly flat out says ) that she only mind-melded when she was forced. The way I remember it she initially agreed to mind-meld willingly, and it was only when her "partner" tried to push the emotional issue that she attempted to end the meld and he forced it to go deeper. So am I remembering it wrongly or did TPTB try to slip a rewrite in that T'Pol really was "innocent" of breaking the Vulcan taboos against mind-melds. I really like T'Pol in this episode, and she's great as always when dealing with Vulcan intrigue. Her noble insistance on refusing to reveal she was forced on moral grounds is great ...except I don't think she was forced, was she?
Scott Bakula did a great job railing against bigotry in this episode, and my girl Jolene was also great in dealing with her illness and the social problems caused by the taboo, but it does annoy me that TPTB had the nerve to make such a stand while still refusing to even acknowledge that gay people exist, with the possible exeption of a couple of hot bi-curious Trills on DS9. Overall I like the episode but the hypocricy of TPTB really rubs me the wrong way, although I will grudingly give my adroval that at least Archer gets to say that all human bigotry was left behind in the last century.

Yes, in Fusion T'Pol does agree to the meld out of curiosity but it would appear that T'Pol didn't know what exactly caused the p'naar syndrome and probably blamed her condition on the forced meld when Tolaris refused to break the link. Based on what we learn in Stigma, it would seem that little was known about what exactly causes p'naar and we'll learn in the Vulcan arc that it's caused by melding with someone who has not been properly trained (quite likely the case with the "rebel" Vulcans in Fusion).

 

[borgboy]

Thanks for the info.
Actually to correct my earlier post, she was definitely forced to continue the meld, but she still agreed to the inital meld which still broke the taboo.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Yes she agreed to the meld at first but once it changed nature and Tolaris refused to stop when asked, her view of the incident changed. As the victim she's not really compartmentalising the event into two seperate points - while I was agreeing and while I wasn't - but the whole event becomes more about the traumatic part in her mind. Although i do think T'Pol does blame herself to some degree.

 

[borgboy]

That does make sense to a degree , that T'Pol isn't compartmentalising the incident. Since she was attacked, she sees the whole incident as being nonconsensual. I can see the sense in that, in a way, although in another way she did still consent to a mind-meld all the same.

 

[gblews]

That does make sense to a degree , that T'Pol isn't compartmentalising the incident. Since she was attacked, she sees the whole incident as being nonconsensual. I can see the sense in that, in a way, although in another way she did still consent to a mind-meld all the same.

Well actually, it wasn't "in another way", as you say. She consented to the meld -- straight, like that. That she wanted to stop before Tolaris did is also true.

With respect to Stigma; I suspect that the writers thought it was much more dramatic to have T'Pol inaccurately state that she was forced. They just gambled that most people either hadn't seen Fusion or didn't remember it correctly. I Don't blame them, though. Stigma needed as much help as it could get. I thought it was one of the most heavy handed Trek "message" episodes I'd ever seen.

The public service messge at the end almost made my eyes roll out of their sockets. Stigma was not one of my favorites.

 

[JiNX-01]

That does make sense to a degree , that T'Pol isn't compartmentalising the incident. Since she was attacked, she sees the whole incident as being nonconsensual. I can see the sense in that, in a way, although in another way she did still consent to a mind-meld all the same.

Well actually, it wasn't "in another way", as you say. She consented to the meld -- straight, like that. That she wanted to stop before Tolaris did is also true.

With respect to Stigma; I suspect that the writers thought it was much more dramatic to have T'Pol inaccurately state that she was forced. They just gambled that most people either hadn't seen Fusion or didn't remember it correctly. I Don't blame them, though. Stigma needed as much help as it could get. I thought it was one of the most heavy handed Trek "message" episodes I'd ever seen.

The public service messge at the end almost made my eyes roll out of their sockets. Stigma was not one of my favorites.

I didn't care for the beat-me-over-the-head AIDS story either, but I did enjoy the Feezal-Trip-Phlox subplot.

 

[Pensive]

^yeah they could have milked that tension for DAYS and it wouldn't have gotten old. Seeing Trip squirm like that...priceless!

 

[JiNX-01]

^yeah they could have milked that tension for DAYS and it wouldn't have gotten old. Seeing Trip squirm like that...priceless!

^I do like the way you think!

 

[Pensive]

^ peas in a pod, luv

 

[gblews]

I didn't care for the beat-me-over-the-head AIDS story either, but I did enjoy the Feezal-Trip-Phlox subplot.

I always forget this was the B plot. Yeah it was interesting seeing the Denobulans acting like Denobulans. And Feezal did have a rather compelling MILF-ishness about her. But I think my reaction would have been the same as Trip's. She was married and her husband was right there for godsake.

 

[commodore64]

Borgboy, I too thought the distinction about the meld was vague. You know when she wants to be released, but I always wondered if the damage had already been done. She'd agreed to the meld, which means she may've been already exposed to the virus.

And I liked this story. I've seen a lot of "beat me over the head" stories in ENT, but I think covering an important social issue like this in the way that they did was good stuff. Furthermore, I also liked Jolene and Scott in this one. Jolene played a great *Vulcan* who deals with some tough issues while being a little vulnerable without being -- in my opinion -- weak.

The Phlox/Trip/Feezal plot was cute for sure. A nice tension breaker and part of what I thought Trip and Reed did best: provide comic relief.

 

[JiNX-01]

I didn't care for the beat-me-over-the-head AIDS story either, but I did enjoy the Feezal-Trip-Phlox subplot.

I always forget this was the B plot. Yeah it was interesting seeing the Denobulans acting like Denobulans. And Feezal did have a rather compelling MILF-ishness about her. But I think my reaction would have been the same as Trip's. She was married and her husband was right there for godsake.

I would have had Trip's reaction, too -- odd that Phlox wasn't so cavalier when Cutler showed an interested in him -- but it was still fun watching him, especially when Feezal was getting too close while Phlox was in the room and the scene where he's awkwardly trying to tell Phlox that Feezal has been hitting on him was hilarious.

 

[bluedana]

I honestly don't see the inconsistency here. Tolaris basically says, I want to show you how to access your emotions, and T'Pol agrees to try it. She's uncomfortable with what he's actually doing (the mind meld), and asks him to stop. He doesn't, she resists. In Stigma and later the Vulcan arc episode, we find that this force injures her (by causing her Panar Syndrome). This is no different from a more experienced person, let's say an older man for simplicity, telling an inexperienced person, let's say a teenaged girl, something like, Let's do this, it'll feel good. She agrees, but becomes uncomfortable and wants to stop. He doesn't, and she resists. That's rape.

From T'Pol's perspective, the whole thing becomes an attack - and Archer (not understanding what exactly a mindmeld is) assumes it's a physical attack. I don't think it's inaccurate to say she was forced.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

In the scene where Archer calls Phlox and T'Pol in and they finally tell him about the Pa'nar, Archer reacts to the term "mind-meld" as something new, even though he was aware of it in "Fusion," so yes, that's a bit of dramatic license being taken by the writers. But he does remember that she was attacked, which was the basis for his confrontation with Tolaris in that episode.

In "Stigma," the Vulcan who helps T'Pol on the sly, Yuris, says at one point to her, "You were coerced." I think that line is a kind of bridge between the two episodes. It could be argued that Tolaris did set T'Pol up, consciously or unconsciously, by identifying her vulnerability (her curiosity about emotion), setting out bait (persuading her to dream), then luring her into the trap (offering to mind-meld so he could share her dream).

 

[miriel68]

I think the problem of cohesion between Fusion and Stigma (T'Pol being forced/ agreing to mind meld) is a minor one, comparing to lack of cohesion between Stigma and Kir' shara, when we learn that Pa'nar sindrome can be cured simply by a new, well executed mind meld. Surely Yuris would have known it, being a member of minority, too? So what's all this thing about scientific reasearch and searching a cure?
Of course, it is just that in the season 4 they were far more concerned with continuity with Star Trek general canon than with Enterprise "canon"

 

[bluedana]

I think the problem of cohesion between Fusion and Stigma (T'Pol being forced/ agreing to mind meld) is a minor one, comparing to lack of cohesion between Stigma and Kir' shara, when we learn that Pa'nar sindrome can be cured simply by a new, well executed mind meld. Surely Yuris would have known it, being a member of minority, too? So what's all this thing about scientific reasearch and searching a cure?
Of course, it is just that in the season 4 they were far more concerned with continuity with Star Trek general canon than with Enterprise "canon"

Yuris knows that he can mindmeld but sees it as some fluke that puts him in the minority. T'Pau treats is as something every Vulcan can do, and she does it all the time. That's why she's skilled enough to access Surak's katra with a human - who by definition can't actively participate in the meld himself. So it's reasonable that Yuris doesn't know enough about the link between Panar and faulty melding, whereas T'Pau, who's more knowledgeable and more skilled, does.

 

[trj]

first time i saw this ep i was pissed at archer for letting tolaris go,it was a assault that happened on his ship.but then again he was protecting tpols privacy and rep,but then again this guy tolaris will do this again to someone else in the future,tough call

 

[JiNX-01]

first time i saw this ep i was pissed at archer for letting tolaris go,it was a assault that happened on his ship.but then again he was protecting tpols privacy and rep,but then again this guy tolaris will do this again to someone else in the future,tough call

Archer let Tolaris go in Fusion in season 1. Stigma was a followup episode in season 2.