Stigma - Loved It!
- Thread starter seigezunt
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Meh. I thought it was a bit too ham-handed. Not to mention that T'Pol wasn't "forced" to do the meld in Fusion.
She consented out of curiosity. Of course, Tolaris should have stopped when she told him to, but the bottom line is that it was OK with her at first. And she was well aware at the time melding was considered a perversion.
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The writers of Fusion [oops, I mean Stigma] conveniently ignore all of that because that would make T'Pol at least partly at fault for her condition. And we couldn't have that.
Just as later on in S3, she feels sorry for herself because mainlining trellium has consequences.
As for Stigma, I liked the B-plot more.
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Tolaris manipulated T'Pol, but she did agree initially to the meld. When he tried to extract more emotion from her, she had to fight him to break the meld.
I liked it, too! I thought it was a nice episode that had some good writing. Thumbs up here too.
Neither were wrapped up, were they? That might be my only complaint about trellium *and* the mind meld. I liked:
* Mindmelds have a direct correlation to like Spock's mindmelds, and it fits with the Vulcans as they are in Enterprise vs. TOS
* Nice moments of Archer fighting to keep his first officer around, a la Kirk and Spock
* Phlox being a doctor, rather than a pimp, a voyeur, etc.
* A schizm in the Vulcans about mindmelds (and nice work on Soval in the Vulcan trilogy)
Neither were wrapped up, were they? That might be my only complaint about trellium *and* the mind meld. I liked:
* Mindmelds have a direct correlation to like Spock's mindmelds, and it fits with the Vulcans as they are in Enterprise vs. TOS
* Nice moments of Archer fighting to keep his first officer around, a la Kirk and Spock
* Phlox being a doctor, rather than a pimp, a voyeur, etc.
* A schizm in the Vulcans about mindmelds (and nice work on Soval in the Vulcan trilogy)
And that's not even the only discontinuity between Fusion and Stigma... There was never any indication in Fusion that mind-melds were forbidden - if they had been, certainly T'Pol would have been aware of it, and said something like "But it is forbidden", or looked shocked, or whatever? Instead, the impression I got was that mind-melds were an obscure and forgotten practice that T'Pol wasn't even aware of.
The whole 'only a minority can initiate a mind-meld, and it is a forbidden practice' thing was obviously made up for Stigma in order to fit the story they were going for, but they contradicted Fusion in the process.
Hmmm. I forgot about T'Pol not knowing what a meld is. Of course, I don't watch this episode much because I hated the ridiculous idea that melding was a perversion.
Case in point:
Spock told Kirk that in betrothal ceremonies the couple would touch each other to feel each other's thoughts -- sounds suspiciously like a meld -- thus creating a bond between them that would compel them to return to their homeworld to marry.
Whoa...that's still being forced. Lets look at this situation from the perspective that it is paralleling.
A guy and a girl start to make out. It gets a little hot and heavy. The guy starts to "go for more". The girl says "No, stop." The guy continues and starts to force himself on her until she is able to pull him off.
From what you are suggesting, the guy should have stopped, but it was her fault that she got a disease because she was okay with it when it started. That's not right.
I understand what Jinx is saying. And to make it less "eww," let's not use sex as a metaphor -- I think it makes it more difficult. Let's use doing drugs as our metaphor. So, Tolaris offers T'Pol some drugs and she says, "Okay." She injects herself with a little and starts to feel weird and then Tolaris says, "Here are more drugs." She says, "No thank you. The small bit I've already done is enough and I'm done with drugs."
Yes. Tolaris should've stopped. I don't think Jinx is saying "T'Pol had it coming to her." What Jinx is saying, and I agree with though, is that T'Pol already did "drugs" and claiming someone forced her isn't quite correct. No one forced her in the beginning. She did it of her own volition. She was curious.
So, having T'Pol claim she was forced doesn't feel quite right. She was curious and decided to try it out. She felt weird, wasn't sure she liked it and asked to stop. Tolaris made her continue. What he did was wrong and T'Pol should've been able to stop when she wanted to. But that doesn't change the fact she already agreed to the meld and did it a little because she was curious. Tolaris didn't force her to become curious enough to do the meld.
Nah. Then Spock "married" Kirk, Scotty, McCoy, a horta and a few others in his days on TOS. And we know, this isn't the case. Instead, he explained, as Soval did, the meld is personal and hence why he's selective about when he does so.
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First of all, I agree, Tolaris should have stopped when T'Pol told him to stop. However, as far as I could tell, the only reason she wanted him to stop was because he was trying to force more emotions from her.
Had he stuck to the simple, unintrusive meld, I believe she would have gone through with it to the end (and T'Pol still would have ended up with panaar syndrome. As we learn in the Vulcan arc, the syndrome is not caused by forced melding, it's caused by melding with improperly trained Vulcans).
Carrying over your parallel to Stigma:
T'Pol's initial willingness to meld with Tolaris is buried. The writers paint her as Total Victim.
It's as if she was making out with her boyfriend, he got carried away, and she had to fight him off.
Then she tells the police he raped her.
The issue of T'Pol consenting to the meld vs. being forced has become a touchy subject in past threads. Your opinion will line up with how you interpreted the scene.
In the later Archer-Tolaris confrontation, Archer tells him, "You assaulted one of my officers!" Based on that line, I would guess that the date-rape metaphor might be more what the writers intended, as opposed to the drugs metaphor.
Also there's the parallel of a girl agreeing to do something intimate with a guy, but the intimate activity reaches a level she's not comfortable with, so she asks him to stop, but he refuses to stop, and forces her to continue the activity against her will. That seems to fit the "Fusion" meld, and date-rape, but it doesn't quite line up for me with drug-taking or boozing... unless the guy forces more drugs or drink into her, in which case it would be a physical assault.
I agree that the writers retconned "Fusion" in order to tell the story they wanted to tell in "Stigma." Archer conveniently forgets what a mind-meld is, and T'Pol focuses on the assault aspect of her meld with Tolaris, rather than the initial-consent part, which is understandable for an assault victim to do. But the tweaks weren't earth-shatteringly jarring for me (Archer's amnesia stood out more than T'Pol's characterization of the forced meld), so I didn't mind.
I do like the issues that were explored in "Stigma," about trust and loyalty and prejudice and persecution. Setting aside the parallels to AIDS, the whole idea that TPTB on Vulcan were motivated at some point to re-define the mind-melding common in Surak's time as a detestible act, and to maintain that Pa'nar is something one "catches" after engaging in this unmentionable activity, is fascinating because it's propaganda, and one can speculate as to why they wanted to make the populace believe it.
And yes, it's a very cool setup for Soval in the Vulcan trilogy. I loved how his character evolved.
In the later Archer-Tolaris confrontation, Archer tells him, "You assaulted one of my officers!" Based on that line, I would guess that the date-rape metaphor might be more what the writers intended, as opposed to the drugs metaphor.
Also there's the parallel of a girl agreeing to do something intimate with a guy, but the intimate activity reaches a level she's not comfortable with, so she asks him to stop, but he refuses to stop, and forces her to continue the activity against her will. That seems to fit the "Fusion" meld, and date-rape, but it doesn't quite line up for me with drug-taking or boozing... unless the guy forces more drugs or drink into her, in which case it would be a physical assault.
I agree that the writers retconned "Fusion" in order to tell the story they wanted to tell in "Stigma." Archer conveniently forgets what a mind-meld is, and T'Pol focuses on the assault aspect of her meld with Tolaris, rather than the initial-consent part, which is understandable for an assault victim to do. But the tweaks weren't earth-shatteringly jarring for me (Archer's amnesia stood out more than T'Pol's characterization of the forced meld), so I didn't mind.
I do like the issues that were explored in "Stigma," about trust and loyalty and prejudice and persecution. Setting aside the parallels to AIDS, the whole idea that TPTB on Vulcan were motivated at some point to re-define the mind-melding common in Surak's time as a detestible act, and to maintain that Pa'nar is something one "catches" after engaging in this unmentionable activity, is fascinating because it's propaganda, and one can speculate as to why they wanted to make the populace believe it.
And yes, it's a very cool setup for Soval in the Vulcan trilogy. I loved how his character evolved.
There's no doubt in my mind that the parallel was intended to be to a date-rape, not a drug or alcohol situation. However consensual (and perhaps enjoyable, if scary) the meld started out to be, Tolaris intruded too far and actually hurt her to the point where she passed out - not counting the lasting effects of Panar Syndrome.
HR is right, we come at this episode with our own interpretations, from a legal point of view, what you've described, Jinx, is rape, or more technically, sexual battery or indecent assault. Under most US law, a person has to consent to each stage or act, and if at any time he or she says stop, and the other person does not, it is an assault, a battery, and a crime. The problem is that the continuum is very fluid, and there are no clear lines of demarcation between this act and that one. Put simply, if a girl (for example) consents to kissing, and does not consent to a guy touching her inside her pants, that is indecent assault and/or sexual battery. Whether it's successfully prosecutable or not (and that totally depends on a wide range of circumstances), it's still a criminal act.
Coming at Stigma from that point of view, I think T'Pol is justified in saying she was forced (to go as far with the mind meld as she did, which is what caused the injury), and Archer's understanding of it (from Phlox's and T'Pol's reports of it) is that it was an assault.
On another front, it doesn't seem to me that T'Pol and Koss had the kind of betrothal bond that Spock described with T'Pring. She could barely look at the guy, and practically took a shower after touching fingers with him. Perhaps the betrothal-as-a-child ceremony, which created this bond that brings the two together at the appointed time, was not used during T'Pol's lifetime. Perhaps it came back into fashion when T'Pau, a melder, came into power. That would explain why she was unfamiliar with the intimacy of a mind meld. It seemed to me that her engagement to Koss was a late occurring thing, not a mystical childhood connection.
Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm typing in English.
My argument re: Stigma is that T'Pol's explanation for having panaar syndrome is that someone forced a meld on her. Period. That is disingenuous on her part.
I am NOT defending Tolaris (I have always considered him a total sleazeball and could not fathom why she took any interest in him in the first place) and I am not "blaming" T'Pol when he forced her to continue the meld.
My argument re: Stigma is that T'Pol's explanation for having panaar syndrome is that someone forced a meld on her. Period. That is disingenuous on her part.
I am NOT defending Tolaris (I have always considered him a total sleazeball and could not fathom why she took any interest in him in the first place) and I am not "blaming" T'Pol when he forced her to continue the meld.
number6
Vice Admiral
But you ARE denying that she was attacked. There is nothing wrong with MY reading comprehension here.Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm typing in English.
My argument re: Stigma is that T'Pol's explanation for having panaar syndrome is that someone forced a meld on her. Period. That is disingenuous on her part.
I am NOT defending Tolaris (I have always considered him a total sleazeball and could not fathom why she took any interest in him in the first place) and I am not "blaming" T'Pol when he forced her to continue the meld.
That's the problem with this forum. The people who like the show are forced to defend arguments as weak and ridiculous as this.
Apparently there's something wrong with your memory.But you ARE denying that she was attacked. There is nothing wrong with MY reading comprehension here.Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm typing in English.
My argument re: Stigma is that T'Pol's explanation for having panaar syndrome is that someone forced a meld on her. Period. That is disingenuous on her part.
I am NOT defending Tolaris (I have always considered him a total sleazeball and could not fathom why she took any interest in him in the first place) and I am not "blaming" T'Pol when he forced her to continue the meld.
T'Pol consented to mind meld with Tolaris. AND YES!!!! She was attacked and Tolaris should have been stripped naked and shoved out an airlock.
But we're talking about "Stigma." And in Stigma, T'Pol takes the "principled" stand of refusing to denounce those who are melders while at the same time failing to admit that she initially consented to the meld that preceded her injury.
I take it that when you say "people who like the show" you're referring to "Stigma."
number6
Vice Admiral
No. I am referring to the show in general. Everytime someone starts a thread extolling the virtues of one episode or another, the thread is instantly barraged by people who think that the episode:
Sucked
Was an abomination
Assasinated the character of_______
Was poorly written
etc.
etc.
People who like the show are constantly being put into the position of defending themselves against people who can't be happy until they've persuaded everyone who will listen as to how much and to what degree the show sucked. As a fan of the show, I am sick of it.
As to Stigma:
T'Pol was forced against her will to continue the mind meld.
T'Pol wasn't a "staight edged" Vulcan by any stretch. Despite her coldness to Archer and the mission, she was prone to experimentation, which was encouraged by Archer's distrust of Vulcans and episodes which proved their hypocrisy. The events of The Andorian Incident was a prime example that all was not right with the Vulcan way of life. That's one of many reasons why T'Pol was attracted to situations that would allow her to explore more than what the Vulcan society would consider normal. That's what attracted her to Tolaris and why she was so easily manipulated by him. That's why she experimented with her emotions by injecting herself with trellium and that's why she stood by Archer's side when the Vulcan Council wanted to stop Earth's mission of exploration. There is more than enough motivation here for her to protect the identity of Tolaris, even though the meld went too far to the point where she was being raped.
There is nothing wrong with my memory and there is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. If you're uncomfortable with my opinion that's fair game, but please don't insult me. It demeans us both and I like you.
Sucked
Was an abomination
Assasinated the character of_______
Was poorly written
etc.
etc.
People who like the show are constantly being put into the position of defending themselves against people who can't be happy until they've persuaded everyone who will listen as to how much and to what degree the show sucked. As a fan of the show, I am sick of it.
As to Stigma:
T'Pol was forced against her will to continue the mind meld.
T'Pol wasn't a "staight edged" Vulcan by any stretch. Despite her coldness to Archer and the mission, she was prone to experimentation, which was encouraged by Archer's distrust of Vulcans and episodes which proved their hypocrisy. The events of The Andorian Incident was a prime example that all was not right with the Vulcan way of life. That's one of many reasons why T'Pol was attracted to situations that would allow her to explore more than what the Vulcan society would consider normal. That's what attracted her to Tolaris and why she was so easily manipulated by him. That's why she experimented with her emotions by injecting herself with trellium and that's why she stood by Archer's side when the Vulcan Council wanted to stop Earth's mission of exploration. There is more than enough motivation here for her to protect the identity of Tolaris, even though the meld went too far to the point where she was being raped.
There is nothing wrong with my memory and there is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. If you're uncomfortable with my opinion that's fair game, but please don't insult me. It demeans us both and I like you.
I like you, too. I just think T'Pol should have been more forthcoming about the circumstances of the meld. In fact, I think it would have been even more principled than her refusal to denounce melders.
number6
Vice Admiral
How so? T'Pol saw the council as trying to advance an appalling agenda and decided that she was not going to help them further that agenda by naming names or volunteering testimony.
I think the AIDS allegory is a little overstated with regards to this episode. I think McCarthyism is a little more appropriate..perhaps a combination of both.
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I didn't say that. I'm saying from *our* (the audience) point of view, using drugs makes it more understandable; using sex makes it seem like Jinx consents with a rapist. Nothing could be further from the truth.
In other words: I'm concerned that Jinx's point of view is boiled, otherwise, down to: T'Pol had it coming to her. That's just not the case.
And Jinx agreed, Tolaris assaulted her. But I believe the point is: T'Pol experimented with a meld before that happened. It's simple and understandable; T'Pol was curious.
