STID's plot holes unrivaled?

[WarpFactorZ]

what instrument was keeping them afloat at the low altitude of 200,000 km up to that point?

Plot, I guess.

As for the TWOK issue and stranding him on Regula One, I went through this entire thread and I don't think I saw anyone actually quote Khan's speech to Kirk (paraphrasing from memory):

"Perhaps I no longer need to try. [beams up Genesis]. I've done far worse than kill you, Kirk. I've hurt you. And I wish to go on hurting you. I shall leave you as you left me -- as you left her -- marooned for all eternity at the center of a dead planet, buried alive."

So, yeah, he changed his mind because he realized he could grab Genesis and no one would know he had it. Then he could learn how it worked, build an arsenal of Genesis torpedoes (maybe 72 of them...), and in the words of NuKhan: "... continue the work my people started centuries ago."

 

[CorporalClegg]

So, yeah, he changed his mind because he realized he could grab Genesis and no one would know he had it.

Assumption.

Then he could learn how it worked,

Assumption.

build an arsenal of Genesis torpedoes (maybe 72 of them...), and in the words of NuKhan:

Assumption.

"... continue the work my people started centuries ago."

Assumption.

For a guy who's supposed to be so smart, he's taking a lot on blind faith.

This is, of course, after his previous assumptions that: A) The Enterprise was mortally wounded, and B) that Kirk was "marooned at the center of the dead planet." The fact was, even had Kirk been marooned there, he'd be stuck in paradise left to spend the rest of his days with his family and one his his best friends. What a dreadful fate...

Really not the poetic justice Khan thought it was because he was (again) assuming shit.

 

[Set Harth]

in the words of NuKhan: "... continue the work my people started centuries ago."

When does he say that?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

in the words of NuKhan: "... continue the work my people started centuries ago."

When does he say that?

It was a paraphrase. I haven't had 31 years to commit STiD to memory. The exact quote is:

Khan: Continue the work we were doing before we were banished.

Spock: Which as I understand it involves the mass-genocide of any being you find to be less than superior.

 

[Khan444]

Nemesis had more plot holes than STID easily, in fact the entire plot was a plot hole. The thing about Khan in TWOK was that he was obsessed with killing Kirk, the suddenly wasn't and just left him trapped inside a planet. Then, during the climax, he was suddenly obsessed with killing Kirk again, so much so that he walked into the most obvious "its a trap" situation imaginable. It isn't really a plot hole per se, just odd.

 

[Belz...]

STID's plot holes aren't 'unrivaled'. But with all those plot holes websites nowadays, I guess people simply notice them more. Of course, older movies are already known to us so we tend to forgive their own problems.

Maybe we're all being a bit too critical.

 

[M'Sharak]

STID's plot holes aren't 'unrivaled'. But with all those plot holes websites nowadays, I guess people simply notice them more.

There are websites devoted to nothing but plot holes?

Edit:

Huh, I guess there are. Crazy.

Some of their "plot holes" aren't really plot holes, though.

 

[Sindatur]

The Board has 23,000+ Members, and only 5 or 10 at most, make a daily habit out of taking every single opportunity (Even in unrelated threads) to express their extreme dislike for The Bad Robot Trek Films and/or The Bad Robot Team?

Now, I'm not saying the rest of the members of the board love the films. It's certainly true that many do express flaws that exist in the films, and they often end up being lumped in as "Abrams Apoligists"

But out of 23,000+ members, only 5 or 10 of them has such intense hatred for the films and Bad Robot personnel that they regularly post that extreme dislike.

Does it really make sense to slam, bait and namecall the posters on a regular basis who don't agree with those 5 or 10

 

[Belz...]

There are websites devoted to nothing but plot holes?

Plot holes and "tropes". It's interesting but maybe it has a negative impact on how one sees new movies.

 

[Mountie1988]

The Board has 23,000+ Members, and only 5 or 10 at most, make a daily habit out of taking every single opportunity (Even in unrelated threads) to express their extreme dislike for The Bad Robot Trek Films and/or The Bad Robot Team?

Now, I'm not saying the rest of the members of the board love the films. It's certainly true that many do express flaws that exist in the films, and they often end up being lumped in as "Abrams Apoligists"

But out of 23,000+ members, only 5 or 10 of them has such intense hatred for the films and Bad Robot personnel that they regularly post that extreme dislike.

Does it really make sense to slam, bait and namecall the posters on a regular basis who don't agree with those 5 or 10

I get your point, but do yourself a favour and do not make assumptions regarding the number of Abrams-haters, or else they will slam, bait and namecall you on a regular basis

 

[suarezguy]

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Kirk violates regulations and refuses to raise shields and thus fails to protect his crew of training cadets.

He had become rusty and, ironically, overly trusting. OTOH Khan's sarcastic comment that they were all "one happy fleet" suggested a norm of high trust was typical.

Star Trek: First Contact
The TNG crew monitors the Romulan Neutral Zone, then agrees to disobey orders and get involved with the Borg after the battle at 001 already has started, but manages to arrive in time while it still lasts. That's what I call Transwarp Drive Baby.

I believe the battle the crew heard about was not at 001 but far from Earth. It's questionable but not unbelievable that some ships or different ships in multiple waves would hold out for a while.

First Contact Again
The Borg first fly to Earth, then go back in time. Why not the other way round without the Federation noticing?

And First Contact One More Time
Enslave mankind when it was most vulnerable. 21st century? Really? I don't think Mitochondrial Eve would have been up to the fight (Then again, she was half Cylon...)

Not flaws at all. The Borg felt attacking in the present would work and be most valuable and when they were shown to be wrong they felt just pre-FC would give them the best outcome comparing resources gained to the level of resistance.


Not really a plot hole but a contrivance: I hated how in both TSfS and ID the plot depends so much on the Enterprise being crippled after being fired upon a small number of times (there was some attempted explanation in both but it wasn't enough).

 

[BillJ]

Not really a plot hole but a contrivance: I hated how in both TSfS and ID the plot depends so much on the Enterprise being crippled after being fired upon a small number of times (there was some attempted explanation in both but it wasn't enough).

The Enterprise in Into Darkness took quite a beating. In The Search for Spock, you had a ship normally crewed by four-hundred plus being operated by three people.

Neither seemed contrived to me. They both seemed in line with how the Trek universe operates.

 

[Kemaiku]

The Enterprise in TSFS was already going to be scuttled from the beating she took, or beatings plural since her damage increased 2.5 fold to the hull between movies, for no reason, so when a photon torpedo hit them with practically no shields it destroyed the automation center.

Which meant that even if her systems were still operable, there was literally no computer connection to them or way to make them work.

 

[OpenMaw]

So, yeah, he changed his mind because he realized he could grab Genesis and no one would know he had it.

Assumption.

Not an assumption at all. That's what happens, and that's why it happens. Khan was jamming long range communications. Enterprise, and the science team, had no way to communicate with Starfleet. Nobody would know who had taken Genesis once Khan had destroyed Enterprise. No one.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Not an assumption at all. That's what happens, and that's why it happens. Khan was jamming long range communications. Enterprise, and the science team, had no way to communicate with Starfleet. Nobody would know who had taken Genesis once Khan had destroyed Enterprise. No one.

It's an assumption.

 

[SeerSGB]

So, yeah, he changed his mind because he realized he could grab Genesis and no one would know he had it.

Assumption.

Not an assumption at all. That's what happens, and that's why it happens. Khan was jamming long range communications. Enterprise, and the science team, had no way to communicate with Starfleet. Nobody would know who had taken Genesis once Khan had destroyed Enterprise. No one.

Assumption and a bad one too:

- Starfleet knows there's an issue at Regula 1. An outpost housing high value research

Now add to that:

- Reliant goes off the grid
- Enterprise goes off the grid
- Regula is off the grid.

Starfleet (unless they're completely brain dead) is going to send another ship to see what happened. Kirk still has a full rig of landing party gear. So if a ship did pass by, and he's sending out an SOS that'd be picked up. Plus we don't know what other sort of gear is stored in the Geneis tunnels.

Plus: as a weapon, Genesis is worthless to Khan. He pops off on torpedo...then what? He pretty much gets his ass handed to him. Even the threat is worthless.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Plus: as a weapon, Genesis is worthless to Khan. He pops off on torpedo...then what? He pretty much gets his ass handed to him. Even the threat is worthless.

Khan had a starship as well which, at the time, was basically in top-notch condition. All he'd need to do is pop into orbit above Earth (we know they have no defenses...), deliver the Genesis device, and warp out before anyone is the wiser.

It's not a useless weapon at all if it inflicts mass chaos and terror, even as a once-off. Need I cite examples from Earth's (recent) history?

 

[BillJ]

Plus: as a weapon, Genesis is worthless to Khan. He pops off on torpedo...then what? He pretty much gets his ass handed to him. Even the threat is worthless.

Khan had a starship as well which, at the time, was basically in top-notch condition. All he'd need to do is pop into orbit above Earth (we know they have no defenses...), deliver the Genesis device, and warp out before anyone is the wiser.

It's not a useless weapon at all if it inflicts mass chaos and terror, even as a once-off. Need I cite examples from Earth's (recent) history?

It works better as a threat than an actual weapon.

Because once you use it, every starship in the Federation is going to be on the hunt for you and you're then at a distinct disadvantage.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

It works better as a threat than an actual weapon.

Because once you use it, every starship in the Federation is going to be on the hunt for you and you're then at a distinct disadvantage.

Presumably Khan saw the potential to build an arsenal of Genesis devices, just as did the Klingons. He didn't just want the device, he wanted the specs too. That clearly indicates his intentions.

It's probably the case that he got the files, but not the hardware. Ransacking Regula I was likely to find the torpedo, not to find files on a computer.

By stealing the torpedo, he was either planning on reverse-engineering it, or he was going to use it. Either way, the Reliant would be hunted down, so your last paragraph holds true regardless of what happened with Genesis.

 

[SeerSGB]

It works better as a threat than an actual weapon.

Because once you use it, every starship in the Federation is going to be on the hunt for you and you're then at a distinct disadvantage.

Presumably Khan saw the potential to build an arsenal of Genesis devices, just as did the Klingons. He didn't just want the device, he wanted the specs too. That clearly indicates his intentions.

It's probably the case that he got the files, but not the hardware. Ransacking Regula I was likely to find the torpedo, not to find files on a computer.

By stealing the torpedo, he was either planning on reverse-engineering it, or he was going to use it. Either way, the Reliant would be hunted down, so your last paragraph holds true regardless of what happened with Genesis.

Given that the secret of Genesis is (implied in STIII) not to be part of the official record, he's still got a one off weapon.