STID: The Ethics of the Ending

[Gaith]

Bob Orci did say in his interview with the Mission Log guys that Khan was supposed to be frozen, but awaiting trial, at the end of the movie.

Huh - I heard that interview, but must have missed that bit. Cheers.

Bob Orci did say in his interview with the Mission Log guys that Khan was supposed to be frozen, but awaiting trial, at the end of the movie.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, Mr. Orci. Frozen to await trial as opposed to being incarcerated? Odd.

Yeah, it makes no sense at all. Time in stasis is time denied him to coordinate with his attorneys. I'm pretty sure the writers wanted the Raiders callback first and foremost, and threw in their not-at-all-onscreen "awaiting trial" nonsense second.

As a wussy liberal, I see the difference as being that he's NOT.DEAD.

I assume he's got no pulse and no brain function while in cryo stasis. Even if the possibility of reviving him exists, that sounds pretty "dead" to me, and therefore ethically unacceptable on the authorites' behalf.

 

[Set Harth]

Maybe the trial was before the re-freezing.

I sentence you to re-freezing!

 

[Ovation]

Total speculation here:

Trial occurs (as is happening in the comics). Court concludes Khan is suffering from an illness for which there is no cure (his "savage nature") at present and proposes re-freezing him until such time he and his fellow travellers can be "cured". Protests (legal and, perhaps, social) ensue about the "barbarity" of such a sentence but the court stands firm based on a lack of death penalty and based on the devastation wrought by one augment. It's an uncomfortable solution, but the best they feel they can do.

 

[DonIago]

We shouldn't ignore the possibility that Khan -asked- to be refrozen.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Typically criminals don't get to pick their sentencing though. If he told them he wanted to die, they probably wouldn't allow that either.

I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).

 

[DonIago]

I'm not suggesting any judiciary would freeze him just because he asked, but it might have been a mitigating circumstance in their decision. Just sayin'.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I assume he's got no pulse and no brain function while in cryo stasis.
Even if the possibility of reviving him exists, that sounds pretty "dead" to me, and therefore ethically unacceptable on the authorites' behalf.

1) There is no "even if" on reviving them seeing as he was in cryo when they found him and they mentioned IN THE FILM that they can revive him.

2) Are you seriously saying that its immoral to use stasis tech, and that it qualifies as murder despite that fact that the person is STILL ALIVE, seeing as they shoved Kirk into a cryo tube TO KEEP HIM ALIVE.

So no its not murder to re-freeze him.

And its probably safer to keep him on ice for the time being seeing as the two times the whole lets dump the extremely dangerous egomaniac augments on a planet and forget about them they escaped the moment a starship showed up.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The way I see it, the biggest moral issue with re-freezing would not be any perceived similarity to the death penalty, or even discomfort for Khan (he won't actually feel anything, anyway). It would be the fact that the Federation is sort of just absolving themselves of dealing with him at all, maybe even risking that he might do the same damage to another generation sometime in the future.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The way I see it, the biggest moral issue with re-freezing would not be any perceived similarity to the death penalty, or even discomfort for Khan (he won't actually feel anything, anyway). It would be the fact that the Federation is sort of just absolving themselves of dealing with him at all, maybe even risking that he might do the same damage to another generation sometime in the future.

So basically you don't like the sealed evil in a can trope.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The way I see it, the biggest moral issue with re-freezing would not be any perceived similarity to the death penalty, or even discomfort for Khan (he won't actually feel anything, anyway). It would be the fact that the Federation is sort of just absolving themselves of dealing with him at all, maybe even risking that he might do the same damage to another generation sometime in the future.

So basically you don't like the sealed evil in a can trope.

Not saying I dislike it as a story - but considering he's already been unleashed once to disastrous results, I think a truly 'ethical' solution in terms of what the Federation should do with him would have to include some consideration of the possibility that re-freezing could eventually lead to another escape, possibly in a time where no one has the ability to stop him.

Of course, having him imprisoned also runs the risk of escape, so it would be a question of which risk is viewed as most acceptable.

Personally, for me, I think it's entirely possible the most ethical option here very well could be execution, but I agree the Federation would never really be able to accept that.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I can't imagine him consenting to be frozen again

Frozen to await trial as opposed to being incarcerated? Odd.

Actually, given his motives in this movie, I think it's not unbelievable that he asked to be re-frozen with his cohorts, waiting for the Federation to find a way to deal with them.

 

[Jeyl]

I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).

Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.

 

[Gaith]

Are you seriously saying that its immoral to use stasis tech, and that it qualifies as murder despite that fact that the person is STILL ALIVE, seeing as they shoved Kirk into a cryo tube TO KEEP HIM ALIVE.

Dude, chillax with the shouting - you're not so beautifully brilliant it demeans your honor to participate in this thread. The simple truth is that scientific definitions of life vary, and individuals in fictional states of stasis presumably fail several definitions of being alive. Furthermore, I should think the moral disctinction between indefinitely freezing someone you don't want to deal with and very temporarily doing the same for that person's immediate survival obvious.

And its probably safer to keep him on ice for the time being seeing as the two times the whole lets dump the extremely dangerous egomaniac augments on a planet and forget about them they escaped the moment a starship showed up.

I addressed the need for surveillance way back in the OP.

considering he's already been unleashed once to disastrous results, I think a truly 'ethical' solution in terms of what the Federation should do with him would have to include some consideration of the possibility that re-freezing could eventually lead to another escape, possibly in a time where no one has the ability to stop him.

That's a great point - indefinite freezing, by definition, means that some sort of unforseen disaster could free him at an unsafe time.

All that said, for sake of Pete, he's an augment, not a Q - he may be smart and strong, but Kirk Prime beat his ass with a stick, and nuSpock outwitted him. There's absolutely no basis for believing the UFP couldn't safely lock him up for the duration of his natural life span.


... And as for the aforementioned canon comics, if a trial follows the freezing, I guess that answers that. Still some pretty sloppy moviemaking.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).

Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.

I would think that's rather obvious: massive violence, just the same way Spock stopped Khan this time around. The only difference is that 20th century earth would have no qualms about executing a man like Khan once they had him in their power.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I took the ending as a pseudo-nod to Raiders of the Lost Ark: he was being studied by top men.

Exactly.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).

Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.

I would think that's rather obvious: massive violence, just the same way Spock stopped Khan this time around. The only difference is that 20th century earth would have no qualms about executing a man like Khan once they had him in their power.

That plus the fact that bullets don't have a stun setting.

 

[Kemaiku]

Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.

I would think that's rather obvious: massive violence, just the same way Spock stopped Khan this time around. The only difference is that 20th century earth would have no qualms about executing a man like Khan once they had him in their power.

That plus the fact that bullets don't have a stun setting.

Yup, a 50. Cal to the chest will put an Augment down just as fast.

 

[Franklin]

I can't imagine him consenting to be frozen again

Frozen to await trial as opposed to being incarcerated? Odd.

Actually, given his motives in this movie, I think it's not unbelievable that he asked to be re-frozen with his cohorts, waiting for the Federation to find a way to deal with them.

That makes good sense. I posted months ago (I'm still talking about this movie? Egads, what am I doing with my life?) that I thought the way Khan was dealt with was actually more or less an act of mercy. I thought I saw a peaceful and serene look on Khan's face in the cryo tube, as if to convey he was there at his wish.
So whether it was before or after a trial, he probably requested that he be allowed to rejoin his family by being refrozen, and the request was granted. Fits in with the theme, too.

 

[Sindatur]

Do we know if there was indeed an "if/when" clause to "fix" The Augments? If their intention is to leave them frozen forever, that really is no different to execution.

But, yea, if there is no agreed Sentence Period and it's completely arbitrarily forever, then you can be sure, one day they'll escape (Even if it's not for thousands of years), and they'll be pissed with good reason. If there's an agreed sentence period or ability to deal with them, then there's hope for a rehabilitation (Though are they proud of who they are, and don't want to be neutered? We don't even neuter Pedophiles)

 

[Franklin]

Do we know if there was indeed an "if/when" clause to "fix" The Augments? If their intention is to leave them frozen forever, that really is no different to execution.

But, yea, if there is no agreed Sentence Period and it's completely arbitrarily forever, then you can be sure, one day they'll escape (Even if it's not for thousands of years), and they'll be pissed with good reason. If there's an agreed sentence period or ability to deal with them, then there's hope for a rehabilitation (Though are they proud of who they are, and don't want to be neutered? We don't even neuter Pedophiles)

Rehabilitation, huh? Another twist in their possible fate.

You know, maybe it was by accident, but it's obvious from this thread that the vague way Khan was dealt with at the end of STID really does raise one of those "big questions" good "Star Trek" is said to have dealt with.