Stealing Trek Literature

[David R. George III]

If I may interject into this, Mr. George, I think some may have this view (downloading copies of what one has purchased) because of software licenses. Software licenses absolutely do allow users to make a back-up copy of software, in case the original disc is lost. I think some may have downloaded copies of books they already physically own because they may be confused as to the difference between software licenses and other IP rights.

"Mr. George?" Does my grandfather post on this board? Please, call me David.

In the case of software licenses that allow making copies of software for the purpose of creating a backup, such copies are obviously legal. If an ebook has such an allowance, then there would be no issue of theft. I know that in some cases, some booksellers do not permit backup copies to be downloaded, but should you lose the ebook, you can always download it again at no additional cost.

In fairness, some of the movies on DVD and Blu-Ray are now coming with a digital copy as well as the movie on disc. Perhaps, at some time in the future, there will be a way to get a digital copy of a book as well when you purchase a dead tree edition.

And that would be perfectly fine with me, so long as people employed those digital copies as backups.

I can't abide book thievery, but I don't see the fault in buying a copy of a book from a store, then downloading a vritual version of it "just in case". This is not something I'd do, because I don't like virtual books, but I don't see the difference between this and buying a CD, then making a copy of it on my computer in the event that the disc is scratched.

If downloading a copy of a book is not permitted by the publisher, then doing so is stealing, regardless of any attempt to justify such an action. And if such downloading is not permitted, then utilizing a website that allows this supports that website and helps support the illegal action.

This is not the same as buying a magazine from Wal-Mart, accidently ruining it, and then walking back into the store to swipe another. Cars (to reference David R. George's earlier example) and magazines are physical objects, tangible. If I take another one, I am removing it from the shelf. It is no longer physically possible for someone to buy that car, or that magazine, once I have made off with it. This is not the case with intellectual property. By copying a CD or by obtaining a pdf version of a book for backup or convenience, I am not depriving anyone of additional sales. I am simply preserving or increasing the usability of the property I bought. Take music CDs again: should I buy a CD, and then buy 12 mp3s, just so I can listen to the same music in my CD player and in my mp3 player? Sounds silly -- so I don't.

As I said, my analogy was not exact, but neither is yours. If one purchases a music CD, then patronizes some website to download free copies of the music, that's stealing, just as it is if one buys a physical book and then employs a website to download am electronic copy of the book. By doing so, one is supporting the operation of the website in downloading free copyrighted material, and thereby allowing people to acquire it without previously having bought the physical book.

Now, if you downloaded the books, printed them, and then sold them -- that's questionable, because you're making money off of someone else's work.

This notion that you do the owners and creators of intellectual property harm if and only if you profit from their work is erroneous. Enabling a website that permits illegal downloads of intellectual property by patronizing it is itself harmful.

Apologies to the authors who find this stance offensive, but intellectual property isn't bound by material property's rules. I grew up in a world that recognizes that, one that is trying to understand which rules apply and which do not. I've made my own rule (in regards to thinking about the consequences), and am determined to do right by the musicians, authors, and PC gaming firms whose work I enjoy.

And again, it's a moot point in regards to Treklit -- I have no use for electronic books.

I don't find your stance offensive; I find your reasoning flawed and your conclusions immoral. You don't download ebooks because you don't like them, but you'd be completely justified in doing so if you liked ebooks? As an owner of copyrighted material myself, I choose whether or not people can have free electronic copies of my work. If I say no, and people then make copies of that work, they are explicitly violating my rights as owner of that material, and stealing it from me.

You simply can't guilt people out anymore in such a world. And even if you could, you think that a star trek book is the place to start?

Foolish.

Not foolish at all. Just because an immoral action may be widespread does not justify such an action. This is Scott's first book, and he's found that somebody is stealing it from him, actually cheating him out of money he's earned? He should be upset, and so should anybody else who finds out about it.

It's not really the case that it's illegal so therefore it is wrong.

Absolutely right. As an extreme example, slavery was once the law of the land.

That said, are you arguing that the illegality of downloading copyrighted material is immoral? I don't agree. While some posters here are arguing, perhaps reasonably, that they should be permitted to make free digital backups of physical books they purchase, what's also--and I would argue predominantly--happening is that people are downloading copyrighted material without first purchasing it.

 

[AN_D_K]

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the side of the angels and don't pirate because it's naughty. I'm a videogame developer and I'm annoyed when the top google hits for my games are for torrents.

But I'm also wise to the fact that just saying tut-tut isn't going to do a damn thing. It's like finding money in the street and not handing it in to the police. That is an offense. Tut all you want but that fiver is now mine and most would pocket the money up to a certain amount.

That certain amount is different for different people. The line on what's worth the effort to be good or a little naughty. I'm not just nicking the fiver because I'm evil... But because I'm not going all the way down the the police station to hand it in.

Make it easier for me to hand the money in and the line changes. That's what ebooks should be doing.

 

[Turtletrekker]

If you disagree with a law, then you try to change it within the system.

Sounds great. Go tell Rosa Parks she was doing it wrong.

Exactly the point I was going to bring up.

 

[AN_D_K]

That said, are you arguing that the illegality of downloading copyrighted material is immoral? I don't agree. While some posters here are arguing, perhaps reasonably, that they should be permitted to make free digital backups of physical books they purchase, what's also--and I would argue predominantly--happening is that people are downloading copyrighted material without first purchasing it.

I think that some people feel they have a moral right to do so, and only do so via. illegal means because that is the only method to do so short of scanning the book.

Another extreme example is abortion. A lot of people think it's fine morally but for a long time only illegal means were possible. Good people sent other good people to expensive, dirty & very illegal backrooms.

If people had better alternatives then I'm sure they would rather use them than go to the dirty backrooms. Offering a better service would cut their more moral support.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it easier for me to hand the money in and the line changes. That's what ebooks should be doing.

They should be doing what to "make it easier"?

Seems to me the people who are downloading bootlegged eBooks do it because it's seemingly free (and punishment-free if they don't get caught), not because it's easier on a torrent site than a publisher's eBook download site.

 

[Peak]

Regarding libraries and ebooks:

Here in Sweden we have one company that makes e-books (eLib). Through them online stores can sell un-drm:ed epubs (they are "watermarked", which inself is pretty pointless because it's just to convert the file to text, remove the text, and reconvert back if you really want to get rid of the lines (read: not worth it really).

For libraries, they have time-locked epubs. They work for 30 days or so and then becomes inactive. You can only borrow three books/week. This is due to the fact as it's set up at the moment the libraries pay eLib 20 SEK (about $1.50) for each loan. The libraries don't like this but this is apparently the "best way" to make sure that the right holders get some money from the library loans.

On the other hand - i tried just on a whim to borrow one book and run it though an un-DRM-program for epubs. It worked like a charm, and I found myself with an unlocked book that I've got for "free" from the library. And my city (libraries are financed through the city) paid for it to eLib.

I believe the biggest problem for ebooks and other downloadable content is that it's not a viable business model. Too many people have been converted to believe that "everything on the internet should be free, or at least a lot more cheaper than a physical item".

 

[Scott Pearson]

I think that some people feel they have a moral right to do so, and only do so via. illegal means because that is the only method to do so short of scanning the book.

Another extreme example is abortion. A lot of people think it's fine morally but for a long time only illegal means were possible. Good people sent other good people to expensive, dirty & very illegal backrooms.

If people had better alternatives then I'm sure they would rather use them than go to the dirty backrooms. Offering a better service would cut their more moral support.

Holy crap, did you just compare a woman exercising what she believes should be her inviolable right to control her own body to pirating jackweeds who steal books because they feel inconvenienced by DRM?

You're putting the burden on the wrong people here, as if pirates have a right to steal until the people they're stealing from bend over backwards to service the pirates' laziness and self-involvement.

 

[Daddy Todd]

(S)ome of the movies on DVD and Blu-Ray are now coming with a digital copy as well as the movie on disc. Perhaps, at some time in the future, there will be a way to get a digital copy of a book as well when you purchase a dead tree edition.

I'd expect this to become the norm. Well, the reverse will be the norm: the ordinary edition will be the e-book; the limited-edition-collectible version will come with a snazzy printed hardcopy dead-tree-format BOOK book.

I expect to see this within 5-10 years.

 

[Christopher]

If you disagree with a law, then you try to change it within the system.

Sounds great. Go tell Rosa Parks she was doing it wrong.

Don't you dare compare these pirate scum to such a great lady. Don't you dare.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, the reverse will be the norm: the ordinary edition will be the e-book; the limited-edition-collectible version will come with a snazzy printed hardcopy dead-tree-format BOOK book.

I expect to see this within 5-10 years.

The publishing industry is already anticipating this, I think.

On a related topic, the New South Wales Board of Studies, here in Oz, no longer publishes print versions of any school syllabuses. For several years now, all departmental documents have to be downloaded locally as (free) PDFs. An advantage of this, of course, is that they can always update a single page without reprinting the whole slightly-revised book.

Similarly, we recently bought a new TV set and DVD recorder/player for an elderly woman. Not only did we have to try to show her how to understand two new sets of instructions just to change channels, but the instruction manual was only available as a downloadable set of PDFs. The woman's house doesn't have an internet connection, of course, so we had to travel back to my place just to read the instructions for setting up her new machines. Of course, she had no hope of learning the new tech. She kept looking for some dials to twiddle, even though her two previous video recorders have had remotes.

Oh well, she passed on the other day. The new tech has outlived her, but for how long. It's scary that we probably can't even imagine what entertainment media might be capable of over the next decade. I don't blame the publishers for being reluctant to go overboard with the future possibilities for eBooks. The tech itself will always outrace the commercial aspects.

Sadly, though, scalpers and bootleggers always take full advantage of the inevitable lag between new tech and possibilities for effective prosecutions.

 

[Technobuilder]

It seems the torrent has been deleted. I find that amusing. Good work team.

 

[AN_D_K]

Holy crap, did you just compare a woman exercising what she believes should be her inviolable right to control her own body to pirating jackweeds who steal books because they feel inconvenienced by DRM? .

To be fair, David started it by mentioning slavery :P

As for what could be done to make things better to make more people pay how about : -

Better edited and formatted ebooks. Most of the ones I've bought so far have had errors, that a quick update would fix but won't because publishers still think in editions. the star trek ones are terrible for not showing the breaks. Gaps don't work on ebooks! Pirates actually take pride in fixing it.

Trading in paper books to charity for the rights to the ebook version.

Selling the rights to access to the ebook when you buy a book (or just the ebook)

Realise that the current valuations of ebooks don't match paper books. Printing may only be a small cost in the grand scheme but people don't realise that. Whack the prices down after a few weeks ...see a lot more sales on something that has no more costs after release (unlike print)

Fair play to amazon for making buying books very easy now. That's an important step. It hasn't killed piracy but they're making enough money to not care as much.

Edit: forgot one. Authors, if they really want their royalties, should be giving more of themselves online to build up a fanbase. Like here ...love you guys

 

[David R. George III]

To be fair, David started it by mentioning slavery

I did, but let's recall the context. I agreed that just because something is illegal does not make it immoral, and that if something is legal, that does not necessarily make it moral. I was not comparing pirating copyrighted works to slavery.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the limited-edition-collectible version will come with a snazzy printed hardcopy dead-tree-format BOOK book.

And if that book is about chickens, it will be a "BOOK BOOK BOOK!"

 

[DimesDan]

the limited-edition-collectible version will come with a snazzy printed hardcopy dead-tree-format BOOK book.

And if that book is about chickens, it will be a "BOOK BOOK BOOK!"

I've not really got much to say on the matter and what I asked earlier was indirectly answered, I'm with Scott, David, Greg and Christopher on this matter.

But you know what, in a thread that is pretty serious and is very thought provoking subject, that is a pretty retarded and far from funny comment to come out with Mrs Laser Beam and I hope I'm not the only person who thinks so.

 

[elaithin]

Oh, come on Dimesdan. Really?

 

[DimesDan]

Oh, come on Dimesdan. Really?

Really what exactly? I felt it was retarded and it was an unfunny joke, and in this kind of thread, an attempt at so called humour of Mrs Laser Beams style is totally uncalled for.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And if that book is about chickens, it will be a "BOOK BOOK BOOK!"

But... not necessarily going cheep.

Edit: Ooops, and now I see we aren't meant to attempt humour in this thread. Oh dear.

 

[cmdr_forst]

Why is there such outrage over downloading Star Trek novels but not Star Trek scripts and show bibles? And no one seemed to mind all that much when Michael Piller's unfinished, unpublished book was leaked. Honestly, I am not trolling. I realize there are huge differences between scripts/bibles and novels. But some Trek scripts have been published (I own two of the collections) so there is a market of sorts. And it is all copyrighted work, right?

 

[Greg Cox]

And if that book is about chickens, it will be a "BOOK BOOK BOOK!"

But... not necessarily going cheep.

Edit: Ooops, and now I see we aren't meant to attempt humour in this thread. Oh dear.

Hey, I'm certainly not going to begrudge any attempt to go for a cheap laugh . . . .

Life is too short not to laugh at chicken jokes.