State-run health care

Those opposing UHC should try the thought experiment by Rawls called veil of ignorance. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to complete this without at least admitting that you'd also strive for some sort of security, which UHC could offer. Remember, you wouldn't know where in society you'd stand. You could all of a sudden be in need for medical treatment without being able to find a job to support this.
I think it beautifully brings out the morally right choice.

 

Me-Ike, I don't think you'll find hardly anyone HC reform. It's the government taking over 1/6th of the economy and turning into a bureaurcratic trainwreck that most tax-paying Americans have a problem with.

Those that don't pay taxes? Sure, they'll take anything for free. Yet another reason Obama got voted in. He promised free things in exchange for votes. What these folks don't get is that nothing is ever free.

Anyway, we need reform. That much is certain. Portability, tort-reform, pre-existing conditions, security between jobs, oversight. No problem there at all.

 

You're right on #3, RJ. I should have said "if someone takes what is not theirs they are not a moral person" without actually calling quark himself immoral.

 

Imo it is hilariously hypocritical of people to claim the government has a right to send your kid to die in some foreign country, the government has a right to put you in prison and even execute you, the government has a right to use your money to build a road hundreds of miles away from your home, to listen in on your phone calls, take away your house if you don't/can't pay your bills, etc., but the government does not have a right to give you health care.

 

Um, seeing as 93% (or so) of blacks voted for Obama it's safe to say they got him elected. No problem there.

Black folks on average earn 40% less per household than whites do. So generally speaking, middle income Americans will pay for less affluent Americans, who by the numbers voted for Obama. And YES, UHC IS FREE if you're not paying for it.

Isn't free stuff fun?!!!!!

 

I don't know about you btu I've never felt entitled to ANYTHING. Some people may feel differently however.

Let me guess, you feel that if you can't pay your mortgage you should be able to keep your house? Is home ownership a right now as well?

 

Arguments against this reasoning have been made several times in this thread so I won't type it out yet again. I love my time.

Just wanted to throw Rawls out there, for all those morally undecided.

 

I'm not necessarily arguing against any of the examples I made there, I was just listing some things that came to mind spontaneously that are far more infringing upon one's individual liberty than health care in my opinion.

 

They also voted for Kerry. It was white, suburban independents that elected Obama.

 

And I thought it was the American people who did, silly me.

 

Herself.

 

Hmm, I didn't hear them saying..."Kerry's going to pay my mortgage and put gas in my car! I help him he's gonna help me!"

 

Luke 10:25-37

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.
31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him.
35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."


Mathew 25: 31-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

I would argue that people have a right to shelter. Actually OWNING a home is not a right; it's something to work for.

I haven't chimed in yet, as I've found this whole thread just a fascinating read. The one thing I've noticed that pretty much sums up the arguments is this:

What is the government's job?

I'd argue that the government's primary job is to keep its citizens safe. Any other job the government does is meaningless if the citizens are not cared for on the most basic level: In my mind, this includes being treated for illness.

If a person can't afford food or shelter, the government has ways to help out. How is being sick any different?

 

Yes yes...those foolish blacks.

 

I'd say we have finally reached the real reason TLS is against universal health care.

 

And this shows CLEARLY why we each need to give to our neighbors charitably from out hearts. Not as a mandate for a political power grab.

 

Yep.

 

I agree, and someone who is sick can get immediate medical care at no cost to them. Revamp the system properly and they will be able to pay for their own healthcare out of their own pocket.