Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard

[Kamen Rider Blade]

My headcanon is that the Zheng He type is Starfleet's primary tactical starship circa 2399, and deployed in force as a response fleet to confront potential hostile armadas. Yes, some designs like the Akira, Sovereign, and other late TNG-era designs are still around, but those are dedicated to other tasks. Because I'm quite sure that Starfleet learned the follies of having Mirandas and Excelsiors still in heavy conflict. Starfleet had learned that the hard way starting with Wolf 359 and especially with the Dominion War.

In Space, having multiple starship types may be aesthetically appealing, but may not be as tactically or strategically effective. With a fleet of largely one design plus variants, the ships may be better at coordinating formations, fighting cohesively, and working together. In other places, I have mentioned the example of the Standard Type battleships, which despite increasing armaments, were very similar in appearance, and also had similar handling characteristics. As well, during the age of sail, often the most effective fleet were those comprising dozens of similar ships, most notably the 74-gun which was well regarded for balance speed, firepower and cost.

In a confrontation like in the finale, it may be more tactically sound to have a fleet of Starfleet's most powerful, toughest tactical starship, as that means you are sending in a force with maximum firepower, manoeuvrability, and durability. No more sending spontaneously-combusting Mirandas and Excelsiors and other kitbashes in small waves. Instead, a whole bunch of heavily armoured starships armed to the teeth warping in en mass.

Vessels like the Defiant, Akira, Yeager may be used for general-purpose defence, but might not hold up when dealing with a massive enemy fleet. But perhaps, the Zheng He is more suited for fleet engagements, and act as the 24th/25th century version of the ship of the line. Meanwhile, older designs are elsewhere continuing their exploration and scientific missions.

TL, DR: The Zheng He-types are designed primarily to serve in tactical fleet operations like a classic ship of the line.

I see it as more of a reflection of the modern day Naval Ship design.

BattleShips / BattleCruisers are obsolete.

The Cruiser is the king of Ship Types and given the advantage of FirePower and Modern Weaponry, Cruisers offer that balance of Size, Power, Defense, and Quantity.

 

[Dukhat]

Sure, list them all.

Dukhat, I preferred it when you actually had Gul Dukhat as your user portrait instead of Unicron. =D

I never had Gul Dukat as my avatar. I had Dukhat from Babylon 5.

And to my knowledge, there is no canon energy limitations for Transwarp anything.

 

[Arpy]

I think it prudent to remember the conceit of Star Trek. That it's navy ships on the Final Frontier. It may be a victim of its own imaginings here with us who keep track of them. It has more modes of propulsion and weapons and so on than it makes adequate use of. But maybe it does not make use of them because they're so far past the Final Frontier. Trek inspires us to get out there, but easy jumps here and there, and there and here not being all that bizarre, makes the overall pursuit less enticing than exploring inwardly the depths of cyberspace and other Earthly wonders we're more excited about today.

Plus, we're well past the need for the kind of naval warfare Trek presents. Galactica is an aircraft carrier, and maybe the next big sci-fi figures out how to make drone-strikes interesting. By the time we get into real space, it's going to be AI probes doing the Trek stuff. Trek does cruisers and warp because it's good camp fun.

 

[Arpy]

On trans-warp beaming specifically, if it were possible for one guy to do it a century earlier, whole civilizations would pour surreal resources into making it [near] commonplace by the 24th-25th centuries. And it would be used more in the 23rd too. That's an arms-race if I ever heard of one. It's a game-changer. At least these other transwarp techs have the benefit of being from far off or opaque civilizations. Even for those I can imagine a series of novels about the great crusade by different local powers to acquire them.

And I can see how a 25th/26th Century series could use, say, quantum coaxial slipstream transwarp (again, often shortened to "warp") to get to different parts of the galaxy that would have taken decades in the 23rd/24th centuries but still ultimately tell the same kinds of stories -- ships going into deep space, new worlds around every corner, etc. I feel like a galaxy-spanning Federation always has to be a century or three just ahead of us. Or until we discover warp in the real world and need a new "Final Frontier."

 

[Tarek71]

Well JJ and his current and former people came in. For various reasons they decided on prequels. Simultaneously they wanted to introduce new tech. So rather than wait for 2399 to bring in time travel suits, interstellar beaming and instantaneous jump drive over 50,000 light years, they decided to say that the Federation of the 2250s can do these things.

My rationalization was that the Borg bodies and Borg wreckage from ENT "Regeneration" are studied for decades after, and over time, radical breakthroughs occur thru reverse engineering and research. ST: FC and "Regernation" changed the timeline. And that is the changed timeline that JJTrek and Disco exist within. That would be an easy, breezy thing to establish if they wanted to.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I never had Gul Dukat as my avatar. I had Dukhat from Babylon 5.

Even better =D

And to my knowledge, there is no canon energy limitations for Transwarp anything.

Not in TV/Movie cannon, but for Transwarp Beaming, it was limitations set in the Novel. And it's not a "Hard Limit" so much as the energy requirements for Transwarp Beaming "1 person" is ridiculous compared to just moving a StarShip and it's contents to the destination, and strain on existing reactors for one high energy burst for "Transwarp Beaming" is ridiculously high.

That's the problem with Khan MacGyvering his solutions.

 

[Timo]

Then again, it's not just a matter of rationalizing why the Federation gets to develop its own high tech at timepoint T1 instead of T2. It's an uphill battle, up the slippery vertical face of Matterhorn without an ice pick no less, to rationalize why the Federation doesn't yet possess the godlike technology it could get from all the gods of Star Trek.

Somebody else in the Trek universe has already invented everything and then some. And our heroes get to meet this somebody easily enough. Ever since the adventures of Kirk, they find fallen gods who could easily be robbed of their divine technology. They interact with their betters in many other ways, too, sometimes even merging with them. So what happens to all the tech they meet? Some they could just pilfer. Some they might reverse engineer. Some they might be inspired to develop on their own when they see it in action. But they just plain don't.

An internal mechanism where high tech gets suppressed, more or less successfully, to protect the Federation from itself... Is surprisingly appealing. Call it S31 or whatever. But postulating that it exists is a pretty good idea in the end!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Or until we discover warp in the real world and need a new "Final Frontier."

The thing about the "Final Frontier" and space is that space is expanding constantly. and we need newer faster methods of FTL just to keep pace, if we intend to cross the vast cosmos, especially between galaxies, we're going to need it. There are also multiple dimensions / parallel universe, time travel to the past to learn from it, time travel to the future and setup structure to make sure the UFP stays around for as long as possible. Time Travel will help with that so that we ensure that the UFP lineage is intact for millenia to come.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

An internal mechanism where high tech gets suppressed, more or less successfully, to protect the Federation from itself... Is surprisingly appealing. Call it S31 or whatever. But postulating that it exists is a pretty good idea in the end!

Timo Saloniemi

I think it's more of budget / VFX issue / not pushing the timeline foreward past the 24th century.

We know that by the 31st Century, Time Pod's can literally be like the TARDIS where it's bigger on the inside then on the outside.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Earth_vessel_(31st_century)

But that technology doesn't appear until way into the future.

 

[Arpy]

An internal mechanism where high tech gets suppressed, more or less successfully, to protect the Federation from itself... Is surprisingly appealing. Call it S31 or whatever. But postulating that it exists is a pretty good idea in the end!

Section 31 is supposed to be secret...at least in some time periods -- I've lost track of when to care about that part. This would require a specific Technological Directive or something. Otherwise, there'd be too many questions. But even then, that's the Federation. Why haven't the Klingons made use of some forgotten Metron stronghold to conquer half the galaxy? Or even the Andorians? Absolute power having the tendency to corrupt, and all that. Even Section 31. This would be their Prime Directive: to seek out such technology for the Federation. Or to conquer it themselves. Because they care, of course.

The thing about the "Final Frontier" and space is that space is expanding constantly. and we need newer faster methods of FTL just to keep pace, if we intend to cross the vast cosmos, especially between galaxies, we're going to need it. There are also multiple dimensions / parallel universe, time travel to the past to learn from it, time travel to the future and setup structure to make sure the UFP stays around for as long as possible. Time Travel will help with that so that we ensure that the UFP lineage is intact for millenia to come.

I guess I just think Trek is about more local space exploration to appeal to our real world yearning to get out there in a (somewhat) realistic way. Once we go Galactic Federation, I think it passes a certain threshold of real world general appeal. The tales you start to tell then are Star Wars or Asimov's Foundation. Right now, you can constantly re-stage Trek with a new century and a new frontier. I think at the next level you have to reinvent it to explore other galaxies and universe.

Though, you know what? Maybe a Galactic Federation Trek wouldn't be so bad. If it flops or if you want to re-stage it on a smaller scale again in the following series, you could set it in a parallel universe. But maybe the way the world is now, with any country or destination easy enough to get to by the masses (via airplane or instagram), maybe a Trek series exploring different kinds of stories would be interesting in its own way. JJ basically did that with Khan transporting from Earth to Kronos and Kirk calling Scotty back on Earth in real time, anyway.

 

[Viper78]

Actually the F-35 is doing just fine by the pilots who are supposed to be on the front line.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/...ggressors-at-red-flag-are-starting-to-emerge/

During that iteration, designated RF 17-1, the U.S. Air Force F-35A Lightning II, who had just been declared IOC (Initial Operational Capable) achieved a resounding score in mock aerial engagements against Aggressors: while early reports suggested a 15-1 kill ratio a subsequent Air Force testimony by Lt. Gen. Jerry D. Harris, Vice Commander of Air Combat Command characterized the kill ratio as “20-1” meaning that, for one F-35A “lost” in simulated combat in a high threat environment that the aircraft destroyed 20 simulated enemy aircraft.

According to the airmen of the 388th FW, during the first week of RF 19-1, the F-35 pilots flew in a larger force of Blue Air in a counter-air mission. More than 60 aggressor aircraft were flying against them, blinding many of the fourth-generation aircraft with “robust” electronic attack capabilities.

And the F-35 needs the stealth to perform it's SEAD missions and take out sensors and Anti-Air units on the ground.

And while in Stealth configuration, it'll carry all the weapons it'll need to take out the advisory's on the ground while the F-22's are watching their back in the sky.

Then when all of that is done, it'll load up it's pylons with more bombs to carry it's full load once enemy Ground Radar and Anti-Air is eradicated.

Should the F-22 fail, the F-35 is the 2nd best DogFighter in the world should it get to that point. But realistically, it'll see the enemy long before then and take them down.

And it's designed to be able to DogFight and manuever at full Stealth Loadout, something 4th gen aircraft can't do or manuever as well with a similar payload.

You design the aircraft, tactics, and strategy around it's capabilities. The US has more than planned for every scenario including some of the worst case scenarios for Peer 2 Peer or Superior adversaries.

I don't want to go off topic here but I don't agree with the F35 being the 2nd best dogfighter in the world. It is a jack of all trades which is why the Royal Navy have it as a replacement for the Harrier, the RAF have it as a Stealth Strike aircraft replacing the Tornado fighter bomber and not as an Air Superiority fighter, the truth is the Eurofighter Typhoon is a dedicated Dogfighter and the best in the world at it. That is why it is still being produced and upgraded with the latest tech. I think the F35 would struggle against a few of the worlds leading fighters in a dogfight, both the F22 and F35 have been designed for stealth rather than dedicated dogfighting.

Back to Starships, I'd always thought of the Intrepid class as designed as Starfleets primary multi purpose vessel.

 

[Timo]

Section 31 is supposed to be secret...at least in some time periods -- I've lost track of when to care about that part. This would require a specific Technological Directive or something. Otherwise, there'd be too many questions.

I'd think the exact opposite. Never tell the legislators. If they were let in on it, then there would be questions. You need to assassinate or mindwipe the inventors and discoverers in complete secrecy and always make it look like an accident.

But even then, that's the Federation. Why haven't the Klingons made use of some forgotten Metron stronghold to conquer half the galaxy? Or even the Andorians? Absolute power having the tendency to corrupt, and all that.

Automatic self-regulation? If you do adopt the supertech, you die. Give General Denning all the secrets of Quark's Treasure, and mankind eliminates itself in the sixties already. Allow Bruut, Son of B'loode, to make use of the Gripping Hand his ship confiscated from Goddess Athene, and the Empire strangles itself in no time flat. Or then the Cabal of Civilized Beings Everywhere intervenes, and the Klingon Empire is ground to pulp by the alliance of Feds, Romulans, Breen and Cardassians who think they are fighting for a different reason altogether.

I guess I just think Trek is about more local space exploration to appeal to our real world yearning to get out there in a (somewhat) realistic way. Once we go Galactic Federation, I think it passes a certain threshold of real world general appeal. The tales you start to tell then are Star Wars or Asimov's Foundation. Right now, you can constantly re-stage Trek with a new century and a new frontier. I think at the next level you have to reinvent it to explore other galaxies and universe.

I don't really see the difference. Kirk already encountered the fantastic: gods, empires and weird phenomena that challenge some basic assumptions of ours. What more could a wider-ranging setting ever offer? Nothing about this "tighter" Trek has created the impression that the outer space wonders actually matter back home: they are far away and stay far away. Going multigalactic would just sustain that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

I'd think the exact opposite. Never tell the legislators. If they were let in on it, then there would be questions. You need to assassinate or mindwipe the inventors and discoverers in complete secrecy and always make it look like an accident.

Wouldn't that mean killing nearly every hero ship we've had? And lots of others throughout the galaxy? I think 31 are too busy modeling their leather jackets in the mirror to reach that far.

Automatic self-regulation? If you do adopt the supertech, you die. Give General Denning all the secrets of Quark's Treasure, and mankind eliminates itself in the sixties already. Allow Bruut, Son of B'loode, to make use of the Gripping Hand his ship confiscated from Goddess Athene, and the Empire strangles itself in no time flat. Or then the Cabal of Civilized Beings Everywhere intervenes, and the Klingon Empire is ground to pulp by the alliance of Feds, Romulans, Breen and Cardassians who think they are fighting for a different reason altogether.

That works once or twice or a few times more, but not every time. We've come across a lot of advanced tech over the years, and those are only the stories we've seen.

I don't really see the difference. Kirk already encountered the fantastic: gods, empires and weird phenomena that challenge some basic assumptions of ours. What more could a wider-ranging setting ever offer? Nothing about this "tighter" Trek has created the impression that the outer space wonders actually matter back home: they are far away and stay far away. Going multigalactic would just sustain that.

I dunno. I think you may dumb space down more going that way. Suddenly you're traveling 80 galaxies to the left and 900 south weekly, and, it's like, we haven't even set foot on the moon in fifty years and it turns out we're woefully unprepared for a pandemic that could take us out in the next decade or two. Galactic civilization? Come on. Plus, Trek is already pushing it with warp getting us to local stars fast as it has (and the times have gotten shorter as we've gotten more spoiled and impatient), and now we're transwarping across the known universe? I guess I wish that we could make its vastness seem more so somehow.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Galactic civilization? Come on. Plus, Trek is already pushing it with warp getting us to local stars fast as it has (and the times have gotten shorter as we've gotten more spoiled and impatient), and now we're transwarping across the known universe? I guess I wish that we could make its vastness seem more so somehow.

In my Head Cannon, I've already did the math for traveling to one of the closer Galaxies near by and start exploring.
- 2,500,000 LY to the Andromeda Galaxy in a Non-Stop straight trip, realistically, it's not possible to perform in one straight line due to engine limitations for sustained output and needing breaks / cool down / various resource limitations / etc

But if you use all my existing FTL tech that StarFleet has access to:
Safest Method, but Slower
~ 4,171.9 days via Warp Drive @ WF 40 ~= 11.422 Gregorian Years
~ __225.4 days via TransWarp Drive @ WF 96
~ ___46.644 days via Quantum SlipStream Drive @ WF 154
~ ___10.629 days via CoAxial Warp Drive @ WF 240
~ ____2.297 days via Graviton Catapult @ WF 380
~ ____9.958 hours via DASH Drive @ WF 635
~ ____2.5 secs - 1 min via QUAHSSI-Driver System@ WF 11,214
Riskiest, but Faster

Realistically, we'll use one of the middle FTL options like CoAxial Warp Drive, since the Risk isn't nearly as high as some of the faster methods due to the Pros/Cons of each system, especially with resource / range issues.

For those who are fans of the ST: Discovery, the DASH (Displacement-Activated Spore-Hub) Drive is the official term, the colloquiel term is "Spore Drive". Even then, that's a long time to spend within the "Mycelial Network" just to get to another Galaxy. And there are various limits as to why we can't just jump in a "Straight Line".

 

[Arpy]

^ Semi off-topic, but did you ever watch B5? One of the things I liked about that show is how different alien techs are from one another, and how not so easily compatible. Many of them employ different types of engines and cores and they all use unknown ancient alien jump gate technology for their primary long-range travel.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

^ Semi off-topic, but did you ever watch B5? One of the things I liked about that show is how different alien techs are from one another, and how not so easily compatible. Many of them employ different types of engines and cores and they all use unknown ancient alien jump gate technology for their primary long-range travel.

Yeah, I've watched it several times over and watched it with friends. I own the entire collection on DVD.

 

[fireproof78]

TL, DR: The Zheng He-types are designed primarily to serve in tactical fleet operations like a classic ship of the line.

Pretty much sums up my feelings.

My rationalization was that the Borg bodies and Borg wreckage from ENT "Regeneration" are studied for decades after, and over time, radical breakthroughs occur thru reverse engineering and research. ST: FC and "Regernation" changed the timeline. And that is the changed timeline that JJTrek and Disco exist within. That would be an easy, breezy thing to establish if they wanted to.

I would agree with that though I think DSC and Kelvin Trek are branches within that branch.

But, that's temporal mechanics.

 

[Tuskin38]

So Chabon apparently told Jörg Hillebrand (for use on Memory-Alpha) that there were three classes of ships approved for the battle. Though based on the descriptions he gave, only one, with some variations, made it in the final episode.

https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1246552176975122438

 

[137th Gebirg]

VERY cool - many times likes - bookmarking that one. Glad the class name kerfuffle has been straightened out. That can safely place the Ibn Majid back into the Curiosity class and call it a day.

 

[Dukhat]

So Chabon apparently told Jörg Hillebrand (for use on Memory-Alpha) that there were three classes of ships approved for the battle. Though based on the descriptions he gave, only one, with some variations, made it in the final episode.

https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1246552176975122438

He’s probably referring to these two ships, which again were also old designs Eaves made for some video game:

https://i.imgur.com/E80dlXH_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium