First, I know it was a mistake because the script said "Aggressor". Second, you need to look up the definitions for both words. Your argument is actually better served by "Aggressor" than "Aggressive".
Starfleet's sole purpose is to fight Klingons?
- Thread starter Baxten
- Start date
- Status
First, I know it was a mistake because the script said "Aggressor". Second, you need to look up the definitions for both words. Your argument is actually better served by "Aggressor" than "Aggressive".
Yes. Used the phrase as a question.
Personally, I don't have a problem with this line or lines like it. Especially as an allusion to the USSR falling apart, but also independently, I read this more as hyperbole than anything. When the USSR collapsed, there was a period in the US where suddenly there didn't seem to be any "enemies" to speak of. This is my personal memory so its connection to objective reality may be suspect, but it seemed that at that time, writers who used the Soviets as enemies were suddenly scrambling for credible antagonists and there was strong political desire (and strong fear from opposition) to dramatically shrinking the US military. This didn't happen and the idea of no enemies may seem laughable today, but at the time these were real concerns/fears/hopes. I could easily see someone in the military (or fictional equivalent--even if it is only the defensive side of a supposed scientific organization) who would question whether such a fundamental policy shift with another major superpower would be the "end" of their organization as they know it and the status quo as they are comfortable with it.
This. The Starfleet in the movie era seems much more militaristic that in TNG (or even in TOS) and it makes perfect sense that the cold war with the Klingon Empire was the reason for that.
I think it more that the upper ranks of Starfleet Command (the "Admiralty") were more militaristic. Even in the TNG era the admirals seem fully aware that Starfleet was a military first.
The TOS movies spent more time around Earth and Starfleet's upper leadership.
If the Klingons are a serious threat to the Federation, then it follows that a significant chunk of Starfleet's attention and resources is devoted to countering them. If defense was really only 5% of Starfleet's mission, then the Klingons can't be much of a threat. Just call back half of the ships out there chasing butterflies, and they could dismantle the Klingon Empire with contemptuous ease. Don't know about anyone else, but I never got the impression that was an option.
Sole purpose? No. A pretty big part of its purpose? Definitely.
Sole purpose? No. A pretty big part of its purpose? Definitely.
First, where is that script? The film's subtitles display "aggressive species" during the dialogue. There are also these university publications that use the phrase "aggressive trait":
Individual difference and the trait of aggression
Contributing to the plausibility of the genetic transmission of an aggressive trait. . . .
Is Aggressive Trait Responsible for Violence? Priming Effects of
Aggressive Words and Violent Movies
Second, aggressor is someone who attacks first but not necessarily someone who always attacks first. However, there is also an excerpt from a book that uses the phrase "aggressor trait". Therefore, the argument is equally served by either version.Contributing to the plausibility of the genetic transmission of an aggressive trait. . . .
Aggressive Words and Violent Movies
Moreover, the film includes these lines of dialogue:
CREWMAN #1: They [Klingons] all look alike.
CREWMAN #2: What about that smell? You know only the top of the line models can even talk and...
CREWMAN #2: What about that smell? You know only the top of the line models can even talk and...
In fact, the "bad Klingon smell" has been a running theme in Star Trek:
DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations" (1996)
WADDLE: [. . .] After six months, I was hoping the Klingons would invade. At least they know how to make coffee, even if they are foul-smelling barbarians. Sorry [meant for Worf].
VOY: "Prophecy" (2001)
NEELIX: [. . .] Some of the Starfleet people have been complaining about the [Klingon] smell. Personally, I find it appealing. A kind of a musky aroma.
JANEWAY: Maybe we can adjust the environmental controls to filter out the musk.
JANEWAY: Maybe we can adjust the environmental controls to filter out the musk.
ENT: "Sleeping Dogs" (2002)
[Aboard the Klingon ship]
(Reed opens his helmet and nods, T'Pol opens hers and nearly gags.)
HOSHI: Perhaps we should leave the helmets on.
REED: What is it?
HOSHI: (coughing) You can't smell that?
REED: No. This damn cold.
HOSHI: Count your blessings.
(Reed opens his helmet and nods, T'Pol opens hers and nearly gags.)
HOSHI: Perhaps we should leave the helmets on.
REED: What is it?
HOSHI: (coughing) You can't smell that?
REED: No. This damn cold.
HOSHI: Count your blessings.
The franchise was pitched to the audience to be about "humanity", and even included a Soviet/Russian character, Pavel Chekov, but it turned out that, by Leonard Nimoy's admission, ". . . the Klingons have been the constant foe of the Federation, much like the Russians and Communists were to democracy [. . .] the Klingons for us have always been the Communist Block, the Evil Empire. . . ."
Note the words "constant" and "always": meaning at least 1966-1991 (25 years). That is evidence of greater intent (read: propaganda), especially when followed by further post-Cold War evidence already presented.
It seems odd, considering there is nothing about Roddenberry getting "cranky" over it when he approved the following in the original series during the 60's (Memory Alpha: Depicting Klingons):
Gene Coon primarily modeled the Klingons, metaphorically, on contemporary Russians, making the standoff between the species and the Federation representative of that between the Russians and the Americans during the then-ongoing Cold War. (Star Trek: The Original Series 365, p. 139)
. . .
The Klingon Empire was also a metaphor for Communist China and its allies in the Vietnam War, namely North Vietnam and North Korea. (These Are the Voyages: TOS Season One)
. . .
Dave Rossi agreed, "In many ways, the Klingons were born out of our fear, as Americans, of [...] the Communists." ("Errand of Mercy" Starfleet Access, TOS Season 1 Blu-ray)
. . .
The Klingon Empire was also a metaphor for Communist China and its allies in the Vietnam War, namely North Vietnam and North Korea. (These Are the Voyages: TOS Season One)
. . .
Dave Rossi agreed, "In many ways, the Klingons were born out of our fear, as Americans, of [...] the Communists." ("Errand of Mercy" Starfleet Access, TOS Season 1 Blu-ray)
That means it's been that way at least from 1966 to 1991 (25 years).
@Paradise City, @Tosk, @Ghel, @Longinus and @-Brett-
What other purpose does Starfleet have? The C-in-C has stated that their "exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected" after a Starfleet military aide has asked about "mothballing Starfleet".
Of course, we already know from the behind-the-scenes info on Memory Alpha that it's US/NATO propaganda that goes beyond the Cold War. That only serves to prove that Starfleet's statements about not being a military are a lie.
Star Trek is based on the premise in the future the rest of the world becomes the 51st to 200th states of the USA or so it seems sometimes. I doubt a real world United Earth government or galactic Federation would be so Anglo- Americancentric or allow its defence force to be so. Its a flaw of the writers but I still love the franchise.What about this "pattern in the noise", as seen in the ENT: "Breaking the Ice"?
Why would a fourth grade student from Ireland send this drawing to the USS Enterprise? Note "USA" patch on the space suit.
Memory Alpha: Haley (student)
Haley was a Human child from Kenmare, County Kerry, Ireland on Earth. She attended Miss Malvin's fourth grade class at the Worley Elementary School in 2151.
That year, Haley sent a drawing to the crew of Enterprise NX-01, which was dubbed as "First Contact". (ENT: "Breaking the Ice")
Isn't Star Trek supposed to be about humanity and not exclusively USA?
There is also this bit from Memory Alpha: Starfleet:
Therein, [Nicholas Meyer] recalled, "[Roddenberry] was emphatic that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. This struck me as manifestly absurd, for what were Kirk's adventures but a species of gunboat diplomacy wherein the Federation (read America, read the Anglo-Saxons) was always right and aliens were – in Kipling's queasy phrase – 'lesser breeds'? Yes, there was lip service to minority participation, but it was clear who was driving the boat." (The View from the Bridge - Memories of Star Trek and a Life in Hollywood, hardcover ed., p. 81)
Ironically, the dumber they portray Klingons, the dumber it makes the Federation and Starfleet look because they still, somehow, manage to be a threat to a "space USA" or "space NATO".
Roddenberry wasn't troubled by the depiction of the Klingons. He was apparently antagonised by the militaristic tenor of some of the dialogue /the militaristic aesthetic of Starfleet. He was also probably antagonised by the belligerent attitude Kirk had towards the Klingons.
TUC is a cool film though. I have no extraordinary issues with it and it was a good send off for the original squad.
TUC is a cool film though. I have no extraordinary issues with it and it was a good send off for the original squad.
All right. I have checked the briefing scene once again, this time ignoring the official subtitles, and what Admiral Cartwright says does sound closer to "aggressor species" than "aggressive species"; his lips never close for a "v" sound. However, I have not found anything that would be called an original script. Even searching for Cartwright's full sentence with the word "aggressor" in it, turns up zero results.
Here is the scene in question, with the time index of 2 minutes and 8 seconds:
If by saying "aggressor species", their intent was not to state that it's a species with potential to attack again because they were once an aggressor, such as due to an ideology, but to state that they are always an aggressor on a genetic level, then it does, indeed, sound worse; especially when combined with the quote "only the top of the line models can even talk" and the "bad Klingon smell" running theme, dragged into at least as late as 2002 (ENT: "Sleeping Dogs").
There is also this quote in relation to the film from Memory Alpha: Depicting Klingons:
According to Memory Alpha, he was troubled by the depiction of Klingons. There was something, however, that is very odd about his troubles. See for yourself:
It sounds like Roddenberry wanted TUC to be even more of the propaganda than it already was.
Here is the scene in question, with the time index of 2 minutes and 8 seconds:
If by saying "aggressor species", their intent was not to state that it's a species with potential to attack again because they were once an aggressor, such as due to an ideology, but to state that they are always an aggressor on a genetic level, then it does, indeed, sound worse; especially when combined with the quote "only the top of the line models can even talk" and the "bad Klingon smell" running theme, dragged into at least as late as 2002 (ENT: "Sleeping Dogs").
There is also this quote in relation to the film from Memory Alpha: Depicting Klingons:
"We discussed the fact that the Klingons are this aggressive race," remembered Rosenthal. "Originally they supposedly had this reptilian background. In regards to this whole thing about Kirk and his search to uncover the conspiracy behind the assassination....we originally came upon more primitive Klingon tribes who had an almost religious representation for the Klingons the way that they do for the United States in Dances With Wolves. They would be much more primitive and violent. We were going to do a whole thing on the anthropology of the Klingons, but all of that was dropped because it would have been too expensive." (The Making of the Trek Films, UK 3rd ed., pp. 99, 100, 106 & 104)
According to Memory Alpha, he was troubled by the depiction of Klingons. There was something, however, that is very odd about his troubles. See for yourself:
Memory Alpha: Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Memory Alpha: Depicting Klingons
The perceived racism toward the Klingons was of great concern to Roddenberry as well, as he felt there was no place for it in his Star Trek universe, but his considerations were entirely ignored by both Meyer and Nimoy. . . . ([4]; Star Trek Movie Memories, 1995, pp. 366-367)
Memory Alpha: Depicting Klingons
On the other hand, Roddenberry wasn't completely happy with how the species was portrayed in that situation. In fact, Richard Arnold remembered, "Gene was really bothered by the Klingons in VI [....] [They] were, in his words, 'too civilized, too decent, too much of the good guys in the story.' [....] [The Klingon detente] was not the way Gene would have handled it. He would have reversed it, he would have had the Klingons being the ones who couldn't handle the peace, with the Federation saying, 'Come on, let's try and work this out.'" (Star Trek Movie Memories, hardback ed., p. 289)
It sounds like Roddenberry wanted TUC to be even more of the propaganda than it already was.
I always thought Gorkon was quite a bit out of characrer for a Klingon leader. Although I liked the character mind you.
I disagree, and strongly at that.
i think that any realistic or meaningful depiction of the Klingons would be as nuanced and varied as, say, a meaningful depiction of humans. There is enough variation in human behavior as it is that we cannot actually identify any specific set of traits that all humans MUST possess in order to be "typical." There are scoundrels and scholars, villains and heroes, traitors and anti-heroes, adventurous badasses and lucky cowards, suck ups, maniacs, lunatics, dreamers, hookers, bookies, gamblers and pimps...
And yet they expect us to believe there is only ONE type of Klingon you can possibly be, and if you're not the standard "Warrior race guy" all the other Klingons think you're a pussy.
TUC actually had the best depiction of the Klingons in any trek production before or since. In Gorkon and Azetbur and their dealings with their own people we saw them as being just as conflicted and insecure as the Federation was, maybe MORE so, because they were dealing with an existential threat. There's something to be said for wanting to look strong in the face of your enemies, but that's hardly a KLINGON trait, and in the end it wasn't even their biggest problem.
As an American high school student I knew about Rurik from my reading of history outside of school. I wouldn't have thought that only a vanishingly small part of the audience would know who Rurik allegedly was. But of course I am not very familiar with the limits of knowledge of average persons.
Well, I can confirm this thread is the first time I've ever heard of Rurik the Russian. I'm a Canadian in my 30s, for whatever that's worth.
What about this "pattern in the noise", as seen in the ENT: "Breaking the Ice"?
Why would a fourth grade student from Ireland send this drawing to the USS Enterprise? Note "USA" patch on the space suit.
Memory Alpha: Haley (student)
Haley was a Human child from Kenmare, County Kerry, Ireland on Earth. She attended Miss Malvin's fourth grade class at the Worley Elementary School in 2151.
That year, Haley sent a drawing to the crew of Enterprise NX-01, which was dubbed as "First Contact". (ENT: "Breaking the Ice")
Isn't Star Trek supposed to be about humanity and not exclusively USA?
Actually when I looked close at the child's drawing the space suit seemed to say "NASA" not "USA". Maybe Haley meant to write "UESPA" (United Earth Space Probe Agency) or "NUESA" (New United Earth Space Agency) but had trouble squeezing all the letters into the available space.
Considering what became of the OP, I'm putting this thread back to sleep for good.
- Status
Similar threads
