Starfleet - war criminals? (Sisko and Starfleet Command)

[Mr. Laser Beam]

General Order 24 appears to give the captain the right, without consultation, to commit genocide and omnicide.

If there was any proof that GO24 actually exists, other than something Kirk made up on the spot to bullshit the Eminiar war council, I'd be more willing to listen.

To reference another franchise Darth Vader led from the front and would not "order the troops to do something he would not".

True, Vader is often in the thick of it, but I wouldn't take this as any indication that he actually cares about the personnel under his command. Just look at how easy it is for him to force-choke anyone he feels like.

A better example of true "leading from the front" would be somebody like General Veers, who personally led the attack on Hoth from his own AT-AT.

 

[f14peter]

If there was any proof that GO24 actually exists, other than something Kirk made up on the spot to bullshit the Eminiar war council, I'd be more willing to listen.


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the only command Kirk gave to Scotty was blurting out the direction to implement General Order 24, after which Kirk wasn't able to speak to Scotty. After Anon makes some threats to Scotty, the comm link is severed. Kirk then explained the order to Anon, destruction of planet, etc etc etc. At a later point Scotty rings them up to deliver a pretty detailed account of what GO24 meant for Eminear ...

Scotty:
"This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."

with no other prompting from Kirk, sure seems like Scotty had a pretty good grasp of what GO24 entailed. As to whether GO24 was an intentional bluff that both Kirk and Scotty knew of, that's another debate

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As to whether GO24 was an intentional bluff that both Kirk and Scotty knew of, that's another debate

I'd like to think it is. I see no proof that GO24 actually exists.

 

[BillJ]

I see no proof that GO24 actually exists.

Spock seems to think the order existed, or else there's no reason for his discussion with Kirk at the end of the episode.

 

[fireproof78]

He gave the command TWICE. He implied in no way he was kidding.



General Order 24 appears to give the captain the right, without consultation, to commit genocide and omnicide.

So does the Prime Directive in certain cases.

 

[BillJ]

So does the Prime Directive in certain cases.

I bet some crews make a "movie night" out of armageddon unleashed on some unsuspecting world. Get together with some food and drinks, and watch an incoming asteroid destroy all civilization on a world.

 

[fireproof78]

I bet some crews make a "movie night" out of armageddon unleashed on some unsuspecting world. Get together with some food and drinks, and watch an incoming asteroid destroy all civilization on a world.

Why do you think the Ten Forward lounge offered such a great view?

 

[velour]

Regarding Sisko's actions in "For the Uniform", notables include
...
Unknowns include the possibility that Sisko cleared his actions with Starfleet beforehand. After all, what he did sounds like something he always intended to do. But also like something he'd keep from his own crew till the last moment.

At the end of the episode, Sisko admitted to Dax that he did not have authorization from Starfleet command to use those weapons. And he admitted that in a rather boastful way. Imo, that was a dishonorable display by Sisko.

I disagree - the Maquis were in violation of a treaty the Federation signed with the Cardassian Empire.
The Cardassian culture and mindset could not comprehend that there would be a group of Federation citizens that would disobey the directives of the Federation - therefore, to Cardassian eyes, the Maquis were nothing more than a covert attempt by the Fed to take back territory from the Cardassians or otherwise destabilize the fragile peace between the two powers.
The potential damage to the quadrant would be staggering, that's why it was so crucial to put a stop to it.

I get your point about the Cardassian mindset regarding the Maquis. The Federation put themselves in a predicament when they sold out those human inhabitants.

The irony was that the Feds wound up having a devastating war with the Cardassians anyway. The Cardassians proved themselves to be an unreliable partner in peace.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Federation put themselves in a predicament when they sold out those human inhabitants.

The Federation never "sold out" the colonists in the DMZ. Remember, it was the colonists' idea to live in the DMZ in the first place, under Cardassian rule. This doesn't justify the Cardassians' later treatment of them, of course, but it puts paid to the idea that the Federation just handed them over.

 

[Prax]

The Colonies were in the DMZ, a DMZ is a "no man's land" and where no one ruled there. Neither side's forces could enter, or have Starbases there. The Cardassians began violating the treaty immediately after signing it.

Actually it seems there were two treaties. And both times, the Cardassians immediately set out undermining it. The Maquis were formed by the colonists as a means to defend themselves, as Starfleet couldn't enter the zone, and The Cardassians were attacking them by proxy.

 

[Voth commando1]

If there was any proof that GO24 actually exists, other than something Kirk made up on the spot to bullshit the Eminiar war council, I'd be more willing to listen.



True, Vader is often in the thick of it, but I wouldn't take this as any indication that he actually cares about the personnel under his command. Just look at how easy it is for him to force-choke anyone he feels like.

A better example of true "leading from the front" would be somebody like General Veers, who personally led the attack on Hoth from his own AT-AT.

In Star Wars though it's stated I believe in both canon and Legends sources the grunts really do respect Vader as often its not them but the officers that get choked,

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If there was any proof that GO24 actually exists, other than something Kirk made up on the spot to bullshit the Eminiar war council, I'd be more willing to listen.

I'm sure this pet theory salves the wound caused by Kirk's broken heroism, but there is zero proof that it is a ruse, and more proof that it was meant to be understood as something written in law. It is in how the the actors react to the command, knowing what it was and making preparation to act upon it. In Fifty years it has been understood that Kirk would raze the planet lest he get satisfaction--even Mr. Okuda put General Order 24 into his books, and he was meticulous in his research--and no one involved with the production attempted to revise the interpretation.

Moreover, it is the simplest explanation: Starfleet has a procedure in place that allows captains to destroy planets, and Kirk threatened to use it.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

I'm sure this pet theory salves the wound caused by Kirk's broken heroism, but there is zero proof that it is a ruse, and more proof that it was meant to be understood as something written in law. It is in how the the actors react to the command, knowing what it was and making preparation to act upon it. In Fifty years it has been understood that Kirk would raze the planet lest he get satisfaction--even Mr. Okuda put General Order 24 into his books, and he was meticulous in his research--and no one involved with the production attempted to revise the interpretation.

Moreover, it is the simplest explanation: Starfleet has a procedure in place that allows captains to destroy planets, and Kirk threatened to use it.

Alright, even if we cede you that-

Do you *really* think GO24 is still a standing order by the TNG era?

Do you really think a man like Picard would have no moral qualms about serving an organization that permits the wholesale slaughter of literally entire planets?

Beyond that, it's never mentioned in the TNG (and beyond) era.

 

[Prax]

It could be one of those rules/laws that's still on the books, but just never gets used. Like when Janeway says "you know, you could all be hanged...for mutiny"
People say things just like that in the military today, in jest. It's never actually going to happen but the Law does exist.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

It could be one of those rules/laws that's still on the books, but just never gets used. Like when Janeway says "you know, you could all be hanged...for mutiny"
People say things just like that in the military today, in jest. It's never actually going to happen but the Law does exist.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Then again, according to Memory Alpha, in TNG's "Justice" and VOY's "Meld", apparently it's stated that the death penalty is totally outlawed in the Federation?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The only death penalty left is a Starfleet reg (prohibiting all contact with Talos IV). I don't see why this wouldn't also extend to civilians.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

The only death penalty left is a Starfleet reg (prohibiting all contact with Talos IV). I don't see why this wouldn't also extend to civilians.

Yeah, but that was only TOS era possibly.

We have no way of knowing if that order still stands, just to throw that out there.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I doubt the Talosians have become any less dangerous by the 24th century.

Maybe they no longer have evil intent, but the fact remains, anyone who goes there could conceivably learn their powers, and this would destroy the human race the same way it did theirs. So in this case I'm inclined to cut the death penalty some slack.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

I doubt the Talosians have become any less dangerous by the 24th century.

Maybe they no longer have evil intent, but the fact remains, anyone who goes there could conceivably learn their powers, and this would destroy the human race the same way it did theirs. So in this case I'm inclined to cut the death penalty some slack.

Good point.

I just honestly can't see the utopian-perfect-Federation presented in TNG actually executing someone, can you?

 

[Prax]

That was just for animals

Or Janeway was bluffing

After that scene, Harry coms Tuvok from across the bridge
Kim- (whispers) "Tuvok...Kim to Tuvok...Kim to Tu.."

Tuvok-"What is it Ensign!"

Kim-(still whispering) "I heard...at the academy...that summary executions were a myth...and that Captains like to threaten their crew with them."

Tuvok-"Ensign Kim, the Captain is always right. And Ensign, must I again lecture you on protocol. I am not your buddy...I am your commanding officer. You will address me by my Rank. Tuvok out."

Kim- "But this is StarTrek"