Starfleet Fighter Planes?

[kv1at3485]

I didn't.

If that were true you would not have automatically construed to see maliciousness ("condescending", "pure hater") in a number of my earlier posts.

The world isn't binary. Just because I no longer gush over ST does not mean I hate it. To think I hate ST gives ST too much credit: I don't have that sort of emotional attachment. It may occur to you there is a state between the dipoles where one may still be critical without being malicious.

I am critical of ST, that much is apparent. But malicious? I lament ST's failures, perhaps with stronger conviction and bluntness than most on this board. But I do not wish failure upon ST, which would be a sign of hatred. On the contrary what I wish (and here I repeat my earlier sentiment) is that ST would become something better.

I know it is difficult, but on the internet it is imperative not to go out of one's way to see things that aren't there, to assume things based on nothing but a string of impersonal words.

 

[Anwar]

Alright, I think the evidence against fighters in Trek in space works out well enough. I never understood how in Wars despite the capital ships having shields the fighters still get through to fight.

Fighters however, would work better for planetary defense against an invasion and fighting a land war. If the planet had shields or fortifications to protect from bombardment than getting troops to the surface (somehow past the shields) than an army attack is required and air superiority counts.

As for why fighters over drones? Maybe the enemy could jam the remote control for the Drones from Drone control and thus piloted fighters wouldn't be affected by that since they would have actual pilots who can adapt to being cut off from command.

There was a thread in Misc, "Red Baron Hero or Villain?". For TV a fighter pilot can not be a hero unless he is outnumbered and shots down enemy fighter pilots. Its like a law of nature. The Starfleet fighter pilot thus will be set as the villain strafing Jem'Hadar, Cardasians, Klingons etc who can't defend themselves. More then the science, our preconceptions of heroism will prevent Starfleet fighters, even commanded by Sisko from fulfilling that role.

Easy, just have up against the Trek equivalent of mobile SAM batteries and soldiers who can return fire. Or they have their own fighters for evading the stationary defenses and hitting the Defense Command Centres. It can still work.

 

[Star Wolf]

Alright, I think the evidence against fighters in Trek in space works out well enough. I never understood how in Wars despite the capital ships having shields the fighters still get through to fight.

Fighters however, would work better for planetary defense against an invasion and fighting a land war. If the planet had shields or fortifications to protect from bombardment than getting troops to the surface (somehow past the shields) than an army attack is required and air superiority counts.

As for why fighters over drones? Maybe the enemy could jam the remote control for the Drones from Drone control and thus piloted fighters wouldn't be affected by that since they would have actual pilots who can adapt to being cut off from command.

There was a thread in Misc, "Red Baron Hero or Villain?". For TV a fighter pilot can not be a hero unless he is outnumbered and shots down enemy fighter pilots. Its like a law of nature. The Starfleet fighter pilot thus will be set as the villain strafing Jem'Hadar, Cardasians, Klingons etc who can't defend themselves. More then the science, our preconceptions of heroism will prevent Starfleet fighters, even commanded by Sisko from fulfilling that role.

Easy, just have up against the Trek equivalent of mobile SAM batteries and soldiers who can return fire. Or they have their own fighters for evading the stationary defenses and hitting the Defense Command Centres. It can still work.

Fighting a SAM is not heroic enough. There is no honor to be gained

 

[Anwar]

Depends on how impressive and effective the SAM is. If you have it that it takes out lots of Fighters without any of them getting by, then it's heroic for the one pilot to try and take it out alone (or at least draw its fire) to save it's comrades.

Or heck, the enemy can have Land-Battleships for ground wars so the fighters can fight those.

 

[kv1at3485]

Depends on how impressive and effective the SAM is. If you have it that it takes out lots of Fighters without any of them getting by, then it's heroic for the one pilot to try and take it out alone (or at least draw its fire) to save it's comrades.

Or heck, the enemy can have Land-Battleships for ground wars so the fighters can fight those.

Not just land battleships. Land battleships that transform into giant ninja robots! And then the robots can leap into space and attack starships with their phaser swords!

Naturally, the fighter pilot, after all his wing mates having been killed, and his fighter become worthy of a scrap yard, fights off the horde of giant warp capable ninja robots by himself and prevails.

At the very least it's good for spin off products. Seriously, may as well go the whole nine miles.

 

[Anwar]

Well, I WAS thinking of Gundam when I thought of "Land Battleships". They aren't such a bad idea, better than AT-ATs certainly.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There was a thread in Misc, "Red Baron Hero or Villain?". For TV a fighter pilot can not be a hero unless he is outnumbered and shots down enemy fighter pilots. Its like a law of nature. The Starfleet fighter pilot thus will be set as the villain strafing Jem'Hadar, Cardasians, Klingons etc who can't defend themselves. More then the science, our preconceptions of heroism will prevent Starfleet fighters, even commanded by Sisko from fulfilling that role.

Easy, just have up against the Trek equivalent of mobile SAM batteries and soldiers who can return fire. Or they have their own fighters for evading the stationary defenses and hitting the Defense Command Centres. It can still work.

Fighting a SAM is not heroic enough. There is no honor to be gained

But for many people it invites too many very icky comparisons to Vietnam. You're better off doing flak storms and huge clouds of tracers, at least then it harkens back to the "Good old days" of world war II... except then it becomes kind of silly, because these fighters are supposed to have shields and little phaser bolts theoretically shouldn't be a problem for them.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, I WAS thinking of Gundam when I thought of "Land Battleships". They aren't such a bad idea, better than AT-ATs certainly.

Hell, if you're gonna go that road you might as well just go all out with the giant robot thing. A mobile suit equipped with a small warp drive, a Defiant-style pulse phaser and a bazooka loaded with photon torpedoes would be pretty bad ass.

 

[Anwar]

Oh, I dunno. I mean Tomino had a good idea when he thought up the Land Battleship. Even his motorcycle battleships are cool, http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/v/lysithea.htm

 

[FlapJoy]

Just because I no longer gush over ST does not mean I hate it. To think I hate ST gives ST too much credit: I don't have that sort of emotional attachment. It may occur to you there is a state between the dipoles where one may still be critical without being malicious.

Not buying it.

 

[barnaclelapse]

I'm actually kind of amazed that no one ever tossed in giant fighting mechs into the Star Trek universe just for the sheer giddy hell of it.

 

[SilentP]

If we're gonna take that one seriously, it might be how for a lot of the early TV stuff, Trek was done with models, only later on switching to CGI (which may of been the only medium besides animation to make it look non-ridiculous), and by that point, trying to force giant mecha into the universe would have seemed...ridiculous? There's enough arguments about the canon value of some ships that appeared, imagine the rage from giant mecha.

 

[Anwar]

Exo-Armor would be nice, and acceptable by sci-fi standards.

But if you want, in one of the TOS Mangas there was a story where they had to take on a bunch of teenagers who flew in transforming mechas that combined together into a big one.

 

[kv1at3485]

Not buying it.

No surprise here.

There's enough arguments about the canon value of some ships that appeared, imagine the rage from giant mecha.

Wouldn't matter as long as at least the same number of people keep buying inyo it.

 

[Sector 7]

[PARENTAL VOICE] Play nice or I'll send you to your rooms without supper! [/PARENTAL VOICE]
Why can we not debate without getting personal. I used to fall into that trap when I was a newbie, not so much now.

 

[Star Wolf]

Easy, just have up against the Trek equivalent of mobile SAM batteries and soldiers who can return fire. Or they have their own fighters for evading the stationary defenses and hitting the Defense Command Centres. It can still work.

Fighting a SAM is not heroic enough. There is no honor to be gained

But for many people it invites too many very icky comparisons to Vietnam. You're better off doing flak storms and huge clouds of tracers, at least then it harkens back to the Good old days of world war II... except then it becomes kind of silly, because these fighters are supposed to have shields and little phaser bolts theoretically shouldn't be a problem for them.

Which brings us full circle back to why Starfleet fighters make no sense. In Starship battles single seat fighters limited warp core and size means they throw weak phasers bolts at a starship's shields just as hand phasers would be weak against a shuttle's, I mean fighter's shields

 

[Jono]

^ The obvious solution to that is that like other small vessels their strength isn't individual its in them functioning as a group. Also the fighters are armed with photon and quantum torpedoes and given that we've seen the Defiant destroy Jem'Hadar fighters with as little as six torpedoes these group of fighters would be dangerous in combat.

 

[SilentP]

There may be a case that there may be a minimum power threshold a hit on the shields must be for the shields to start suffering from, so perhaps even if you had a group of fighters, their phasers together might not be individually strong enough to weaken the shields, and in an effort to keep moving so the larger ships don't get a bead on them, it's difficult to concentrate their fire on a single shield segment.

As for torpedoes, fighters of the kind of size we'd think of, they wouldn't be able to carry that many torpedoes (say 6 at best?), or would have to carry lower yield microtorpedoes, so they wouldn't have the longer battle endurance that other ships have.

 

[Jono]

Can't remember how much torpedoes we see the fighters in SoA fire off in one attack but still six torpedoes from a one man fighter could destroy a Jem'Hadar fighter with 50 Jem'Hadar onboard. They might expend their torpedoes quickly but if they can even the odds or give Starfleet and their allies the advantage in battle then they've done their job.

 

[FlapJoy]

I know that a squadron of fighters may not always be effective against an armada of heavy cruisers… but I also think warp drive and other Trek tech has many applications. In the latter spin-offs of the original Star Trek there were so many similar ships and races to Starfleet seen over and over again! So you can debate that aspect repeatedly, but there are situations or scenarios that exist in the Trek universe that may not always require a heavy cruiser every time. There are many stories to tell in Trek. Trek is about strange new worlds, and I want to see more races like the Tholians that offered an attack method Starfleet was not entirely prepared for. New and VERY different races, some possibly hostile, where depending on the threat at hand, a different arm of Starfleet is appropriate. (by the way, the Tholians are only an example to make the point). Planetary defense, peacekeeping situations, or rescue missions taking place on hostile worlds with challenging terrains or alien properties are a few possible circumstances that might call for a small fighter fleet to be called in or even stationed at skirmish prone areas of space. Or even stories in the early history of trek when warp drive was new and the possibilties were many. I’d like to see fighters in Trek, and get to know the pilots that fly them, and the missions that they might be engaged in.