Starfleet at Quarks

[gunner_thomas]

How do Starfleet officers pay for drinks andholosuites at Quarks if they dont get paid?
I know this has prob been asked be4 but i have had a little search for a thread on the same subject and unable to find anything.
I was locked in a drunken disccussion with a fellow trek friend we both didn't have an answer and who better to ask then you lot on here? lol

 

[Admiral Shran]

This brings up the whole question of money in the Federation, do they have it or not. Here's what I think...

There have been references to something called "Federation Credits." These were mostly in TOS and TOS movies, such as "The Trouble with Tribbles," when Uhura offers to buy a tribble with credits, and "The Search for Spock," when McCoy attempts to use credits to book passage to the Genesis Planet. Once TNG came along, these references were dropped because Roddenberry was adamant that money did not exist anymore.

Then, there's the very specific reference in Voyager, in "Dark Frontier," that money went the way of the dodo on Earth in the twenty-second century. So, money both does and doesn't exist in the twenty-third century.

I reconcile this by believing that Federation Credits do, in fact, exist, even up to the end of "Star Trek Nemesis." However, they are only used when dealing with non-Federation races, or on the fringes of Federation society. Within the UFP itself, and especially within the Federation core of Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar, money simply is unnecessary because technology provides everyone with everything they need to live comfortably.

All Federation citizens probably either have infinite access to credits or the ability to charge anything they want to some from of Federation bank. Then, when the time comes, and a non-Federation race demands that the bills be paid, the central Federation bank/government pays everyone's tabs.

That is how someone like Quark can still be paid by people who don't use money in their everyday lives. Once he has received his payment from the Federation bank/government, he converts that "money" into latinum.

And, of course, there's nothing stopping Starfleet officers, or other Federation citizens, from acquiring latinum of their own in one way or another, if they so chose.

 

[Deckerd]

I'm pretty sure I saw some starfleet gambling at Quark's.

 

[gunner_thomas]

Nice post Shran, if federation citizens have infinite access to credits or the ability to charge anything they want to a Federation bank people would get greedy. tbh as much as i love trek i find the no money situation rather silly.

 

[Damask]

Once TNG came along, these references were dropped because Roddenberry was adamant that money did not exist anymore.

Which is weird because in the first episode of TNG, Crusher buys something at Farpoint station has it charged to her account on the Enterprise.

 

[RyuRoots]

The "no money" thing is completely idiotic, and I prefer to simply ignore it whenever ST brings it up, personally. I mean, they make references to money and do things that would require money all the damn time. The ONLY time they mention "no money" is when they beat you over the head with it. Everytime else, it'd be normal to see credits being in use, which is what I think happens. Although I very much doubt they get an infinite amount. I imagine ranks have pay grades in Starfleet like real militaries do, for instance.

 

[ALF]

I took the "no money" thing to mean that they didn't use paper, coins, etc. and that any transfer or debt between persons was used in a monetary value of credits.

The utopian ideal that no one needs personal possessions is a kind of bizarre notion. I could see it being possible in the far future but not a couple hundred years down the road.

Picard in FC says something like, "the acquisition of wealth is not a driving force in the future." but does that mean everyone gets mansions and lives in luxury without want? Than again, Earth is often described as paradise where famine and poverty were "wiped out."

 

[Lovok]

The "no money" thing is completely idiotic, and I prefer to simply ignore it whenever ST brings it up, personally. I mean, they make references to money and do things that would require money all the damn time. The ONLY time they mention "no money" is when they beat you over the head with it. Everytime else, it'd be normal to see credits being in use, which is what I think happens. Although I very much doubt they get an infinite amount. I imagine ranks have pay grades in Starfleet like real militaries do, for instance.

This. I respect Roddenberry and all but no money? Yeah right. You'd need to have it at least for interacting with other races. I also refuse to believe to believe that Starfleet personel would put in that much work without some kind of extra compensation.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

As far as I'm aware people have "credits" which basically means they get a ration of stuff. This values depending on how they contribute to society, so people who are risking their buns by flying around the galaxy on starships get a little more than those who sweep floors.

The idea is though that people don't have huge gulfs in the amount of stuff they can get their hands on, so poverty is abolished. And the "no money" thing is a technicality really, as there's no physical money. I guess some things go for free too, I would imagine that easily sustainable or replicatable things like coffee can't take up many credits.

Here's the question though... how the hell does Sisko have as much latinum as he allegedly has!?

 

[Rush Limborg]

I dunno. Technically, there is no such thing as "no money", in a free society.

"Money", quite simply, is anything used in trade for something else.

Goods and services both count as money, becuse you're giving said goods and services in exchange for what you want.

The only kind of society that could truly abolish money--abolish trade--while still expecting people to work and contribute to society--is a society based on force.

In short, a slave society.


Now, I'm willing to give The Bird, and Picard, the benefit of the doubt and say they ment no currency. (No dollars, cents, etc.)

But, again, this opens up a can of worms: where is the incentive to produce, and contribute to society?

Now, I could accept that trade is less necessary because of replicators. Nonetheless, trade clearly still exists, and we still see production happening in the UFP en masse. We see trade happening throughout Trek--and humans often take part in the trade.

HOW is this trade commenced, without things to trade, and a standard of trade which we call currency?

 

[Braxton]

As far as I'm aware people have "credits" which basically means they get a ration of stuff. This values depending on how they contribute to society, so people who are risking their buns by flying around the galaxy on starships get a little more than those who sweep floors.

The idea is though that people don't have huge gulfs in the amount of stuff they can get their hands on, so poverty is abolished. And the "no money" thing is a technicality really, as there's no physical money. I guess some things go for free too, I would imagine that easily sustainable or replicatable things like coffee can't take up many credits.

Here's the question though... how the hell does Sisko have as much latinum as he allegedly has!?

Sisko most likely gambled to acquire that latinum

 

[Pseudo]

Since the Federation is apparently a post-scarcity society it does stand to reason that there would be no currency since a post-scarcity society would have practically infinite material resources there would be a desire for other societies to trade with it, but there would be no need for the Federation to embark in this trade, except to obtain items they would be otherwise unable to acquire.

Therefore it is likely that the Federation is a massive exporter, but has almost no imports which would mean it would have acquired large quantities of alien currencies that it has no use for, except in exchange for goods and services on alien worlds.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Ah. Bartering, then.

I like it.

But that still begs the question of what the incentive is for folks to produce within the Federation. Or...does everyone become lazy except Starfleet Officers and folks at recreational facilities?

How are civilians compensated for the services provided?

It's supposed to be a meritocracy. In a meritocracy, ability and production--merit--is rewarded.

So how is it rewarded?

 

[Timo]

Wholly ignoring the issue of how the UFP economy works, we could simply accept that it does, and then jump to answering the original question.

Let's say the UFP economy does not feature anything that could be used as Ferengi-accepted money. No problem: the Feds are wealthy in every practical respect - they can make Ferengi money. They don't need any part of their economy for that, they only need a moneymaker.

From the UFP viewpoint, the Ferengi could be ignorant savages. You keep ignorant savages happy by giving them glass baubles. The UFP should have no shortage of glass baubles, so it's likely that every Starfleet officer can requisition a pouchful of those if they think they are going to end up interacting with savages. And everybody assigned to DS9 would think exactly that...

It's not as if our heroes use their Quark-bribing-baubles as money in any other respect. When Dax wins some of that stuff in Tongo, we observe that she simply leaves her winnings on the table instead of collecting them. We don't see latinum moving between the Feds and, say, the Bajorans; it only flows when the Ferengi or their direct associates are involved. It's funny money to the Feds, to be made or unmade at a whim. But of course the Feds are good people, and don't make or unmake Ferengi money in such quantities or manner that it would disrupt the Ferengi economy - nor do they rub it on Quark's face that they are merely humoring him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MikeS]

Please tell me you're not the same Rush Limbaugh that says silly things about Haitians and the devil?

Yes, we heard about that over here.

 

[MikeS]

Now, I'm willing to give The Bird, and Picard, the benefit of the doubt and say they ment no currency. (No dollars, cents, etc.)

A reasonable assumption

Since the Federation is apparently a post-scarcity society it does stand to reason that there would be no currency

People will always have something that is "worth" something to someone. I mean like rare books. Or the U.S. constitution. I can't really express my thoughts on this very clearly. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Just because you have all the material goods you need to survive, doesn't mean you may want something unique. If enough people want the same thing then it acquires value. Picard and Riker both want the only remaining copy of a first edition A Tale Of Two Cities. Who gets it?

they can make Ferengi money.

Wouldn't that make the Feds criminals and immoral? They could send the Ferengi economy into hyperinflation, bring down the Nagus and cause the collapse of their society.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Please tell me you're not the same Rush Limbaugh that says silly things about Haitians and the devil?

Yes, we heard about that over here.

Limborg.

Limbaugh's my namesake. (And my hero, but that's another issue--one that, frankly, doesn't have much place here....)

 

[MikeS]

I just wondered as I have met a number of "famous" names on this board. I assumed LimBorg was a play on the name, with a Star Trek reference.

Anyhow, as you quite rightly point out - not the correct place for discussion.

 

[kes7]

Um, point of information -- It wasn't Rush Limbaugh who said that nonsense about Haitians and the devil, it was Pat Robertson.

Carry on.

(Oh, and back on topic, put me in the "the Federation MUST have some kind of compensation system, even if it's all credit-based" group, as well.)

 

[Timo]

Wouldn't that make the Feds criminals and immoral?

Why? They probably think that the Ferengi are criminals and immoral. Whenever the Feds discuss money, they equate it with evil. Circumventing the use of money would then be a good thing, and perhaps also a service to those sad individuals or cultures that still cling to money.

The Ferengi can't really extend their laws to dictate what the Feds do or don't do at their home turf, including the making of money. And in any case, the Ferengi don't consider their business partners juridical entities unless they are also Ferengi. Foreigners are just targets to be exploited; with them, a treaty is not a treaty is not a treaty...

They could send the Ferengi economy into hyperinflation, bring down the Nagus and cause the collapse of their society.

No doubt. They could also send Starfleet to rain death on Ferenginar and exterminate every single Ferengi in the universe. Or they could plant daisies on Cousin Gaila's moon and paint it pink just for the laughs.

They don't. They are the good guys. Printing some funny money for lubricating Starfleet-Ferengi relations at DS9 ain't gonna collapse anything.

The likely way for money to have gone out of favor inside the UFP is that the economy grew. It grew sufficiently that the consumer part of it no longer amounted to a fly's fart, and was turned into a pure charity operation where nobody need pay anything for anything because nothing costs enough to warrant the use of payment. Most of the interstellar economies are likely to be like that: the daily exchange of consumer products amounts to something like a thousandth of a percent of the total daily exchange, and is ignored like a bowl of complimentary peanuts at the Exxon lobby might be ignored. The UFP has just made use of this fact to abandon the much-hated symbol of former human woes, the money; the Ferengi have had no similar historical reason to hate their money, so they haven't removed it from their consumer market.

Either way, fooling with the consumer part of the market won't collapse the Ferengi economy any more than it would collapse the UFP one... Even if it may come closer.

(Similar rethinking of scales would explain why there are no salaries any more: only a tiny fraction of the population is needed at work in order to support the rest, and that tiny fraction can be employed at zero pay, on volunteer basis. There's always a sufficient pool of people who're willing to clean the sewers for eight hours, after which the next volunteer can be drafted to that job, and then the next.)

Timo Saloniemi