Starfighters

[fireproof78]

In many ways, SFB is more true to the original Trek canon than later Trek movies / shows were.

Which is why I was always fascinated by it. Same thing with Franz Josephs' design work.

As for fighters, I think there is a place for them in larger combat arenas, where the idea of a large mass of smaller ships could prove more difficult for targeting computers to manage. I also see them being more applicable in the TOS era, then diminishing through TNG, until the Dominion War, and they get a boost again, hence the Peregrine class.

So, are they as usual as contemporary fighters? No, I don't think so, but I think that certain situations and missions would benefit from a squad attached to them, while minimizing resources for larger ships or facilities to maintain them.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Ignoring the example of the Peregrine for the moment, it really seems to me that extrapolating forward from what we have *now*, the most logical fit for the fighter job profile using 23rd/24th century Treknology would be slightly larger photon torpedoes with phaser(s) and ECM package mounted on them, remote controlled from a drone piloting center on the launch vessel, and maybe with a very limited (non-sapient) AI that can make some decisions based on pre-defined parameters if they lose all contact with the control center (including indirect contact through other drones in the same launch). They would make attacks with the energy weapon(s) and then probably generally end with ramming a target and exploding - either because they deplete the reusable weapon or because they get an opportunity to strike a target worth detonating for.

 

[USS Triumphant]

As far as how the organizational part of this would work, there would probably be a department or sub-department dedicated to remote pilot training, and there would also probably be a way that fleet command ships like the Ent-D (or the Triumphant ) could coordinate control of all of the drone torpedoes launched from a fleet of Starfleet vessels at the same time, to optimize effectiveness rather than having the pilot teams on multiple ships overlapping targets unnecessarily.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Ignoring the example of the Peregrine for the moment, it really seems to me that extrapolating forward from what we have *now*, the most logical fit for the fighter job profile using 23rd/24th century Treknology would be slightly larger photon torpedoes with phaser(s) and ECM package mounted on them, remote controlled from a drone piloting center on the launch vessel, and maybe with a very limited (non-sapient) AI that can make some decisions based on pre-defined parameters if they lose all contact with the control center (including indirect contact through other drones in the same launch). They would make attacks with the energy weapon(s) and then probably generally end with ramming a target and exploding - either because they deplete the reusable weapon or because they get an opportunity to strike a target worth detonating for.

As far as how the organizational part of this would work, there would probably be a department or sub-department dedicated to remote pilot training, and there would also probably be a way that fleet command ships like the Ent-D (or the Triumphant ) could coordinate control of all of the drone torpedoes launched from a fleet of Starfleet vessels at the same time, to optimize effectiveness rather than having the pilot teams on multiple ships overlapping targets unnecessarily.

I'd certainly buy the above over single or twin-seat fighters. They have a significant advantage and - as far as I can see - no real disadvantage.

Still think that the raider (patrol boat) has a role to play in the anti-ship area though.

 

[psCargile]

The way I see it, a starfighter is to a heavy cruiser what a dingy is to a battleship.

 

[J.T.B.]

The way I see it, a starfighter is to a heavy cruiser what a dingy is to a battleship.

Yes but: Small boats did change completely the way battleships operated in the late 1800s, once they could use a ship-killing weapon: the "automobile torpedo." Likewise, aircraft weren't a threat to battleships until they were powerful enough to carry a huge torpedo, or sturdy enough to deliver a bomb in a steep dive. After that, naval warfare again changed completely. Examples like that give us a pretty good idea how things would look if "small craft that are very dangerous to big vessels" were a factor in Trek.

But it doesn't seem like ship-killing "fighters" are a thing in Trek, or if they are, the implications haven't been thought through. In TOS four cruisers operate as a battle group, completely un-screened. Even if they were just useful as scouts, in TNG they set up blockades without a small craft in sight, when you would expect them to be useful as a picket. And in DS9, where battles are fought in packed formations with barely ship-lengths between vessels, the "fighter" ships don't go out ahead of the fleet, in fact they almost look like they are catching up from behind. And what are they supposed to be doing? They don't seem to have weapons any more effective than the big ships do.

 

[psCargile]

If battleships could move at 2000 knots, aircraft wouldn't be very effective against them.

 

[Longinus]

I think the fighters being used in the Dominion War was not an indication that the fighters were any good, it was an indication that the situation was desperate and they used all vessels available (Including relics like Mirandas an K't'ingas.)

 

[publiusr]

ST Beyond is really the first time we see Trek ships get bested by small craft.

Ent-D slagged a bunch of snubfighters in one TNG episode.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the fighters being used in the Dominion War was not an indication that the fighters were any good, it was an indication that the situation was desperate and they used all vessels available (Including relics like Mirandas an K't'ingas.)

Even though Mirandas were treated as ships of the line in that era? I mean, the Lantree, the Saratoga, just off the top of my head.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think the fighters being used in the Dominion War was not an indication that the fighters were any good, it was an indication that the situation was desperate and they used all vessels available (Including relics like Mirandas an K't'ingas.)

I'll go with this.

In fact, in-universe it might interested to speculate why more of the fleet wasn't newer models like Sovereigns, Intrepids, Novas and Defiants, or even mid-2300s ships like Ambassadors, New Orleans, Cheyennes and Challengers (the last three being "little sisters" of the Galaxy & Nebula-class Explorers)?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Even though Mirandas were treated as ships of the line in that era? I mean, the Lantree, the Saratoga, just off the top of my head.

Actually, while Sisko's Saratoga probably was a front-line vessel, the Brattain was a science vessel with a crew of thirty five (as little as 1/10 of it's original complement) and the Supply Ship Lantree (likely 80-100 years old at that point) had a crew of only twenty-six probably wasn't classed as front-line vessels either.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, while Sisko's Saratoga probably was a front-line vessel, the Brattain was a science vessel with a crew of thirty five (as little as 1/10 of it's original complement) and the Supply Ship Lantree (likely 80-100 years old at that point) had a crew of only twenty-six probably wasn't classed as front-line vessels either.

Fair enough.

I still doubt that starfighters lack a use in Starfleet, even if that use is limited.

 

[Timo]

Well, those attack fighters do exist. And Sisko has a supply of them available for use, even if it counts as gross misuse and is ineffective save for the psychological angle.

Even if there was a brief period in, say, the 2360s where Starfleet ceased to believe in fightercraft for any application, nevertheless these craft got built and remained in existence. Did they sit in warehouses before Sisko dragged them out for unconventional stuff? Dubious, as the Maquis were also able to activate a few some time before the war.

Did they sit in starship hangars, then, unused in onscreen adventures because those were the wrong sort of adventures? Much like aquashuttles, supposedly? Perhaps so, but it's difficult to see all of the TNG adventures as being of the wrong sort; if Picard had those craft, two might have escorted Odan's shuttle in "The Host", say.

The presence of warp engines on par with runabout ones, and the supposed ability to operate from planetary surfaces and rough-and-ready bases (the Maquis!), makes it instead possible to think these craft were liberally deployed on frontier theaters where starships would be overkill and keeping a starship stationed for great lengths of time would certainly be inferior to keeping these small craft stationed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Relayer1]

Fighters appear to be useless against a starship in all departments apart from one. They would tie up a starship without requiring the use of a starship of your own. When planning an attack, deploying fighters elsewhere would give a strategic advantage by taking some of the enemy's capital ships out of the area.

Unless the enemy also deploys fighters...

 

[Space Coast]

ST Beyond is really the first time we see Trek ships get bested by small craft.

Ent-D slagged a bunch of snubfighters in one TNG episode.

People always seem to use this example, and it's a terrible example. Those fighters were a full century more primitive than the Ent-D, at least. The USS Gerald R. Ford could tear apart SPADs sent to attack it like wet toilet paper without having to send up a single F-35, that doesn't say anything about fighters, it only says that the SPADs are grossly outclassed in technology.

The Peregrine Class Attack Fighter was used throughout the Dominion War, most promentantly in the Battle of Bajor, Sacrifice of Angels.

I like the idea of the Peregrine, but I absolutely hate the design. Someone strapped stubby lifting-body wings to an '86 Buick and put refrigerators on the back to make it look like it has engines. That's what it looks like.

And I personally feel fighters are perfectly useful, with or without drone controllers - and without would make for better stories anyway. Use them like they're used in STO, or like torpedo bombers are used in World of Warships by carriers with actual skill - annoyance and surrounding tactics. Ships only have so many weapons to fire at so many targets at once, and it's a lot easier to dodge three torpedoes coming from one of the three-dimensional general direction than it is to dodge fifty from all six.

 

[J.T.B.]

Unless the enemy also deploys fighters...

Exactly. You wouldn't deploy a big ship to counter the small ones, you'd deploy small ones of your own.

Ships only have so many weapons to fire at so many targets at once, and it's a lot easier to dodge three torpedoes coming from one of the three-dimensional general direction than it is to dodge fifty from all six.

So you would expect things would have evolved to have screens of "torpedo boat destroyers" or "fighters" to engage the small threats before they could get in range of the big boys. But that's not how it's shown, the big ships always get close enough to trade blows right off.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Assuming for the sake of arguement that fighters (Federation Attack Fighter and/or Peregrines if different) and/or raiders/couriers (cf the Ju'day-type) are part of the Federation's standing fleet are they likely to be a independent organisation separate from Starfleet (cf the USAF or RAF, perhaps the Federation Starfighter Corps [FSFC]), a semi-independent command within Starfleet (cf the RN Fleet Air Arm, led by a RADM, perhaps Starfleet Attack Forces or Starfleet Patrol Group/Border Service*) or manned ad-hoc using regular SF personnel (cf USN Naval Aviators and associates, mostly flight and/or tactical divisions).

Personally, I seriously doubt the FSFC or similar exist as a permenant independent organisation, but a reserve organisation activatable during wartime (along with Federation Ground Forces) is possible. Mainly because I'm not convinced that the one to two person craft would be significantly more useful outside of actual fleet combat.

However, I am convinced that the larger Ju'day-type would be usable in a courier or patrol ship role (maybe a USCG equivalent?), in addition to picket duties for fleets, starbases and colonies so I think they might be retained as a regular workhorse in addition to a wartime Attack Forces role. I'm still not sure of the pros and cons of them being at least semi-independent (up to RADM or even VADM but still answerable to the Commander, Starfleet and potentially the Chief of Starfleet Operations) rather than them being totally interchangeable with regular Starfleet Exploration Division/Deep Space Exploration Corps personnel?

 

[Space Coast]

Exactly. You wouldn't deploy a big ship to counter the small ones, you'd deploy small ones of your own.



So you would expect things would have evolved to have screens of "torpedo boat destroyers" or "fighters" to engage the small threats before they could get in range of the big boys. But that's not how it's shown, the big ships always get close enough to trade blows right off.

I tend to blame things like that on budget more than anything else. Not really any other good reason for most Trek battles to be stuck in three-dimensional World War I naval tactics at best.

 

[Timo]

The USS Gerald R. Ford could tear apart SPADs sent to attack it like wet toilet paper without having to send up a single F-35

Amusingly enough, the Ford might be as helpless against the SPADs as they would be against her. That is, both the Sea Sparrow (semi-active radar homing missile) and the RAM (infrared seeker missile) would be extremely hard pressed to get a lock on the biplane, which gives very little radar return or heat from its teeny weeny engine, and basically none from the other structures! A hit would be unlikely and a correct detonation of the warhead even less so, even should a launch be forced.

Whether the Phalanx guns could get a lock is perhaps less relevant: there probably exists a spray'n'pray mode that could hang a shrapnel cloud ahead those bags of string and tissue regardless of aim. But the SPAD could always approach from an angle covered only by the missile defenses, never a concern against faster and hence less maneuverable opponents spotted and intercepted at a greater distance.

Federation Attack Fighter and/or Peregrines if different

Personally I doubt there's a connection there. The Peregrine, the unseen craft from "Heart of Stone", was a single-pilot courier, not a two-pilot attack fighter.

The smaller version of the Maquis raider, seen first in "Preemptive Strike", might be the better candidate for Peregrine. At least her generic alien shuttle cabin interior would allow for something to be couriered, be it people or parcels; the interior of the attack fighter in "The Maquis" is the TNG shuttlepod prop, featuring little extra room beyond the two side-by-side pilots.

Timo Saloniemi