StarDate

[Henoch]

One order can be the correct choronolgical order, but not all three

You can fudge stardates to mean any order you want, but you can't change the production order or airdate order. In-universe, production order and airdate are meaningless, and only stardate is meaningful...

 

[dswynne1]

They're actually pretty consistent. Every episode they just moved the stardate up a week, and every new season added a number to the thousands. You could watch TNG, DS9, VOY by stardate and it would basically be production order.

That's not what I heard. I heard that GR, when developing TNG, simply added an additional digit, and that everything else was justified after the fact.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

That's not what I heard. I heard that GR, when developing TNG, simply added an additional digit, and that everything else was justified after the fact.

Where did you hear that?

 

[Kirk1701A]

My calculator is finish a few weeks ago. Now it can calculate TOS and TNG stardate given by an valid earthtime. My Special Feature is that the calculator can calculate a valid earthtime given by TOS or TNG stardate.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

You know it can’t. Converting to and from TOS stardates is out of the question, and the best a TNG “stardate calculator” can do is make a conversion according to an interpretation of Okuda’s 41xxx = 2364 conjecture, assuming you’re lucky enough that a writer bothers to follow it (eg., the Borg attack from FC was “recent” in an episode of DS9 that followed the film release, regardless of FC’s much later stardate).

JJ stardates have more reliable conversions, but even there we’re not really sure if the day of the year always follows the period, or whether it can also be the elapsed fraction of the year (as suggested by STB’s 226X.XX on a couple of screens, as well as canon stardates 2230.06, 2233.04 and 2263.02).

 

[Lord Garth]

Just for the Hell of it, here's the average TOS stardate, every 10 episodes. In Production Order. Counting "Where No Man Has Gone Before" as #1, "The Menagerie" twice, and "Turnabout Intruder" as #79. Episodes without Stardates are excluded. For no reason other than I just felt like it.

Ready for it? Here it goes...

Episodes 1-10: Average Stardate 1771.4
Episodes 11-20: Average Stardate 2860.8
Episodes 21-30: Average Stardate 3191.1
Episodes 31-40: Average Stardate 3567.7
Episodes 41-50: Average Stardate 4136.2
Episodes 51-60: Average Stardate 4736.3
Episodes 61-70: Average Stardate 5572.2
Episodes 71-79: Average Stardate 5793.3

I like the idea of the first digit standing for the year of the mission.

 

[Henoch]

I like the idea of the first digit standing for the year of the mission.

I used to think the same thing that it was a mission clock, then it occurred to me that this forces the stardate to be unique only to that individual ship mission, not a reference date across the Federation. In Court Martial, the Starbase 11 was using the same stardate as used on Enterprise. In the Doomsday Machine, the Constellation was on the same stardate. So, either both ships and the starbase started their missions on the same day, or they are using the same stardate system. I now lean toward stardates representing a standard Federation time system. I have also accepted stardates in the 0000.0 to 0999.9 range. This just means that Enterprise's 5YM just started around stardate 1000-ish; no big deal. The 5YR mission would end at stardate 6000. At stardate 9999.9, Starfleet rolled over the stardate clock back to 0000.0 (The rotary stardate chronometers didn't have the room for another digit.)

In the first year, we see evidence that Starfleet was first under United Earth, then transitioned to be under the Federation. In my head-canon, this is when the Federation adopted the United Earth stardate system. Prior to this, each member planet used their own time system which caused confusion throughout the Federation.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

We don’t know what stardate the FYM ended, probably one in the 6xxx or 7xxx ranges going by TAS. There is no evidence of a rollover to 0000, especially since Starfleet wasn’t using mechanical readouts that late and these older ones could always be extended or redefined as showing the last four digits.

The Enterprise could’ve been a United Earth ship just as the Intrepid was a Vulcan ship, both serving the Federation Starfleet. Each member planet and other alien planets probably continued to use local stardate schemes in places, because evidence is that anything can be a stardate, whether it is 2233.04 or 1312.6 (thus explaining the Xindi using stardates also).

There is probably a mathematical formula that adjusts any calendar scheme into a stardate (so that even May 6, 2151 can be one in Archer’s starlog, even though it looks like an Earth date), with the universal translator interpreting the various systems. Whether they’re counting days or years would be totally immaterial to the interstellar substance of a star- prefix.

 

[Lord Garth]

We don’t know what stardate the FYM ended, probably one in the 6xxx or 7xxx ranges going by TAS. There is no evidence of a rollover to 0000, especially since Starfleet wasn’t using mechanical readouts that late and these older ones could always be extended or redefined as showing the last four digits.

I said I like the idea not that I know. There's a difference.

And TAS Stardates carry about as much weight as Disco Stardates. Whereas I've shown that TOS Stardates aren't quite as random as some people think. They generally trended upwards.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

I said I like the idea not that I know. There's a difference.

And TAS Stardates carry about as much weight as Disco Stardates. Whereas I've shown that TOS Stardates aren't quite as random as some people think. They generally trended upwards.

I was replying to Henoch’s suggestion that the FYM ends at 6000, which we can’t say for certain and the number is unlikely to be round. Also, anyone can see that TOS stardates generally trend upwards, unlike those on DSC, which seem to have been reset after S1, almost as if the writers read that “pick any combination of four numbers” line and ignored all precedent from TOS. I wish they’d sensibly used JJ stardates instead, since it couldn’t have been that hard to coordinate scripts in the comfortably short DSC seasons.

Still, unlike TAS, DSC is definitively canon and in detailed story continuity with TOS, despite the need to imagine certain elements differently when tying into one as opposed to the other. Stardates are just numbers, so we can easily imagine competing schemes interpreted by the UT, going back to the 2150s or even earlier in specialized use.

 

[Henoch]

I was replying to Henoch’s suggestion that the FYM ends at 6000, which we can’t say for certain and the number is unlikely to be round.

I should have said 6000-ish to go with the start date of 1000-ish. But, if the mission started exactly on stardate 1000, then it would end exactly on 6000 if we assume that 1000 stardates is one Earth year. One reason to start exactly on 1000? A launch of a special event like a 5YR mission could be symbolically tied to an Starfleet/Federation anniversary date which resulted in enacting the universal stardate system now used by Starfleet.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

I should have said 6000-ish to go with the start date of 1000-ish. But, if the mission started exactly on stardate 1000, then it would end exactly on 6000 if we assume that 1000 stardates is one Earth year.

But then the apparent average rate between TMP and TUC was only roughly 100 units a year or so, even if we exclude rollover hypotheses by looking at 8130–8454 (2285–2287).

 

[Henoch]

I generally use the stardate system for the TOS series (and TWOK is good). Yes, the TOS movies are a mixed bag with the biggest issues in TMP and TUC. The writers and script editors missed several instances of simple math. As Spock once told Saavik, "Nobody's perfect."

I try not pay any attention to the stardates from anything made after the TOS series. A "good" system that works is where one Earth year is 1000 stardates. Of the 79 episodes, 3 episodes (TGOT, ATCSL, and SB) have unfixable mistakes, or an accuracy rate of 76/79x100 = 96% which is not too bad. As a school grade, 96% is usually an "A".

For the six TOS movies (ST:GEN is TNG plus no stardate given for the Kirk part), Four of the six were okay-ish (I could have still done better), putting the accuracy rate at 66.7% or a school grade of a solid "D". I gave up after this.

 

[Lord Garth]

I generally use the stardate system for the TOS series (and TWOK is good). Yes, the TOS movies are a mixed bag with the biggest issues in TMP and TUC. The writers and script editors missed several instances of simple math. As Spock once told Saavik, "Nobody's perfect."

I try not pay any attention to the stardates from anything made after the TOS series. A "good" system that works is where one Earth year is 1000 stardates. Of the 79 episodes, 3 episodes (TGOT, ATCSL, and SB) have unfixable mistakes, or an accuracy rate of 76/79x100 = 96% which is not too bad. As a school grade, 96% is usually an "A".

For the six TOS movies (ST:GEN is TNG plus no stardate given for the Kirk part), Four of the six were okay-ish (I could have still done better), putting the accuracy rate at 66.7% or a school grade of a solid "D". I gave up after this.

I always went with the idea that they slowed down stardates during the Movie Era. My head-canon was that eventually the Federation figured out that they shouldn't reset the stardates every 10 years, so came up with that as an alternative.

This theory was published online in 1997 and I immediately gravitated to it at the time when I saw that someone looked at the stardates the same way I do. I didn't agree with exactly everything he said, but it was close enough to my own thinking.

I'll cut-and-paste the relevant parts into quotes.

TOS Stardates

III.3. REFERENCE POINTS: THE ORIGINAL SERIES
Going by the Star Trek Chronology, the first and last episodes are "The Corbomite Maneuver" (SD 1512.2; assumed to take place 300 years after it aired in September 2266) and "Turnabout Intruder" (SD 5928.5; early 2269).

This choice of episodes has some faults. "Turnabout Intruder" was the last episode aired, but the stardate of "All Our Yesterdays" was later (stardate 5943.7 against 5928.5). Under the principle that stardates occur in the right order, "All Our Yesterdays" must be taken as the end-point for the mission. (It makes little difference anyway, because the actual date is only conjecture.)

Similarly, there is room for dispute over which episode comes first. "The Corbomite Maneuver" (SD 1512.2) was first in regular production, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Similarly, "The Man Trap" (SD 1513.1), the first episode aired, is not a good starting point. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (SD 1312.4) was first overall in both production and stardate, but is generally regarded as being quite distinct from the rest of the series. "Mudd's Women" (SD 1329.1) has the earliest stardate of the episodes in regular production, providing another possible starting point. However, the episode "Charlie X" (SD 1533.6) contains a clear reference to Terran dates, making all this arbitrariness unnecessary.

[Note: the Chronology lists the stardate of "The Man Trap" as 1513.1, but the Star Trek Compendium says 1531.1. I would appreciate it if someone could check with the episode itself, to confirm one date or the other.]

At one point in "Charlie X", Kirk states that it is Thanksgiving day on Earth. For those not familiar with American customs, Thanksgiving day is the fourth Thursday in November. Assuming Kirk was indeed referring to that same Thanksgiving day (which seems likely), and accepting the Chronology's calculation of year, this pins down the date of Kirk's statement to 2266-11-22. Let this be the day after the initial statement of the stardate for the episode, and the conclusion is reached that the episode started on 2266-11-21. This is only two months different from the Chronology's conjecture, and has the advantage of being almost completely non-arbitrary.

III.4. FIRST PERIOD OF STARDATES: THE ORIGINAL SERIES
Stardate 1533.6 was sometime during 2266-11-21. According to the Chronology, the end of the series (SD 5943.7) was in early 2269. The is approximately 4400 units spanning two and a half years. A nice round number close to this rate is 5 units per day. (4.8 units/day -- 0.2u/hour -- is also within the possible range. It would be less plausible, however, because it relates to hours, which are purely a human invention, whereas days are a natural phenomenon.)

With this rate, to make things easier, it can be assumed that any exact multiple of 5 units is midnight. So the Thanksgiving day in question, 2266-11-22, runs from exactly SD 1535 to just before SD 1540. Therefore, SD 5940 is 00:00 on 2269-04-21 ("All Our Yesterdays" is on that day).

This rate puts "Where No Man Has Gone Before" in 2266, in contradiction to the speculative date in the Chronology. (This is not a problem, because there is no stronger evidence to back up that particular speculation.) It also set dates for a number of other events that the Chronology has assigned conjectural dates. It gives us a date of 2270-02-09 for ST:TMP, which is not acceptable. ST:TMP should occur in late 2271, to give Kirk time to have "not logged a single star hour in two and a half years". So the stardate rate must have changed at some stardate between 5943.7 and 7411.4.

Movie Stardates

III.5. REFERENCE POINTS: THE CLASSIC FILMS
Going by the Star Trek Chronology again, these dates may be useful. "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" (SD 7411.4) was in late 2271, at least 30 months after the end of the original TV series. "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock" (SD 8210.3) was in late 2285. "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country" (SD 9521.6) was in 2293. These dates are conjectural, but they have a solid basis. They may be moved a little without contradicting anything other than the Chronology itself.

(By the way, ST:TMP really does have a stardate of 7411.4, despite the manuals that say 7412.6. One of the barely-audible messages at the Epsilon 9 station mentions a rendezvous between two Federation ships to take place on stardate 7411.4. If you listen carefully it is also possible to make out the ships' names and registry numbers -- scout Columbia NCC-621 and scout Revere NCC-595. These names and numbers match those in the list of scouts in the "Star Fleet Technical Manual".)

TVH:STIV is about 3 months after STIII:TSFS according to Captain Kirk's log, but this reference can be ignored because he may have meant Vulcan months.

III.6. THIRD PERIOD OF STARDATES: THE CLASSIC FILMS
It turns out that the stardate rate has to change sometime between ST:TMP and STII:TWOK, as well as sometime before ST:TMP. The details of that period, encompassing ST:TMP, can't be calculated until this bit, for the remainder of the classic films, has been done.

The reference points to use for this are STIII:TSFS (SD 8210.3; late 2285) and STVI:TUC (SD 9521.6; conjectured to be 2293). The gap is 1311.3 units, covering 7-8 years. A suitable rate is 0.5 units per day. (0.48u/d -- 0.02u/hour -- is also within the possible range.)

Similarly to the first period of stardates, it can be assumed that any exact multiple of 0.5 units is midnight. This means that the days on which STIII:TSFS and STVI:TUC start will start at stardates 8210.0 and 9521.5 respectively. The calculation of exactly which dates these are must wait until the details of the intermediate stardate rate have been calculated.

III.7. SECOND PERIOD OF STARDATES: INTERMEDIATE, ST:TOS TO TCFS
Neither of the periods of stardates discussed above gives a satisfactory date for ST:TMP. It is therefore necessary to have an intermediate period of stardates to link the two. It is possible to make this link with a single intermediate period. This period must use up stardates much more slowly than either of the adjacent periods.

This intermediate period can have a rate of about 0.156u/d at the most. To have a rate any higher, this period would have to extend into ST:TOS or beyond STII:TWOK. It would be possible to use a rate of 0.15u/d (which has the advantage of making a standard 8-hour shift exactly 0.05 units long), but this makes the day length messy. (3u/d or 0.3u/d would be more manageable, but it isn't possible in this case.) The most logical rate to use is 0.1u/d.

Now to place ST:TMP... It must be a fair bit more than 30 months after "All Our Yesterdays", ideally in late 2271. To make the changeover point from ST:TOS stardates to this period an exact midnight -- it would be madness to do otherwise -- it must be a multiple of 5 units. This means that moving it one day forward or back changes the date of ST:TMP by 49 days, because the stardate rates differ by a factor of 50. The most reasonable date possible for ST:TMP under this limitation is 2272-01-10, with the changeover at SD 7340.0 (2270-01-26). This is not quite in 2271, but close enough not to cause problems with later dates.

And for the second changeover... It turns out that fairly sensible dates for STIII:TSFS and STVI:TUC can be obtained by putting the second changeover at SD 7840.0 (2283-10-05) -- exactly 5000 days (500 units) after the first changeover. This makes it all look designed. This puts STIII:TSFS at 2285-10-14, consistent with the Chronology. It also makes STVI:TUC 2292-12-19, which is not quite the conjectural 2293, but is close enough.

TNG Stardates

III.8. REFERENCE POINTS: THE NEXT GENERATION
Throughout ST:TNG stardates have increased at approximately 1000 units per year. (In fact, during ST:TNG, the second digit of the stardate indicated the season.) From these facts, the Chronology has conjectured that ST:TNG stardates increase at exactly 1000 units per year. Numerous references within the series supports this conjecture. Of course, they support it because the shows were written with that system in mind. It would be difficult to contradict this.

However, there are a few inconsistencies in this respect within the series. In "Eye of the Beholder" (ST:TNG, SD 47622.1; incidentally, this is the second of (so far) three very near title clashes in Star Trek -- there was an animated Star Trek episode called "The Eye of the Beholder") an incident at Utopia Planitia is referred to both as stardate 40987 and as eight years ago; allowing for rounding, this gives a year length of between 704.4 and 954.4 units. In "The Pegasus" (ST:TNG, SD 47457.1), the disappearance of the Pegasus was stardate 36764 and twelve years ago; this gives a range of 807.8 to 974.4 units per year. In "Second Sight" (ST: DS9, 47329.4), the battle of Wolf 359 (SD approximately 44002) was exactly four years ago, giving a year length of 832 to 834.75 units.

There are some other references consistent with an 833 unit year, but most are not so clearly referring to Terran years. In any case, the vast majority of references support 1000 units per year, leaving these other references as isolated mistakes.

In "The Neutral Zone" (SD 41986.0), Data stated that the year was 2364. This almost solves the problem of year calculations. The only problem is that Data did not go on to say exactly what day of the year it was, so there is an uncertainty of one year when calculating dates from this.

III.9. FIFTH PERIOD OF STARDATES: THE NEXT GENERATION
Note that ST:TNG stardates have five digits before the decimal point, where ST:TOS stardates have four. This would seem to suggest a change of outlook on the part of the Federation, from short-term to long-term. This coincides with the change from stardate units being convenient fractions of Terran days to being a convenient fraction of a year. Also, the length of stardates in ST:TOS could allow for up to about 5.4 years before needing to be reset to zero, whereas the ST:TNG stardates only need to be reset once a century. (Presumably one often needed to specify which period of 5.4 years one meant by a particular stardate.)

The Chronology proceeds under the assumption that all first season stardates were in the year 2364, and then all second season in 2365, and so on. There isn't really any evidence to support this, but it makes things neat. The production crew have occasionally calculated exact dates on this basis. In order to keep things simple, it will be assumed that this is how the stardates actually work. This makes stardate 00000.0 midnight at the beginning of 2323-01-01.

Stardate 99999.9 should be about 50 minutes before midnight on 2422-12-31, after which the stardates get reset to zero again. However, it is not possible to state this as being exact, because not all centuries are the same length. Every fourth century contains 25 leap years; the rest have 24 each. The difference in the lengths of individual years creates a more immediate problem: the 1000s of units can't match up exactly with calendar years.

Obviously, one solution would be for the stardate rate to vary from year to year, making each year 1000 units whether it is 365 or 366 days long. This is not acceptable as a universal time system, however. The rate changing every fourth Terran year makes things difficult for the Vulcans, and the Andorains, and in fact almost every member of the Federation.

So the rate must make 1000 units fit a mean solar year of 365.2425 days exactly. (Actually that's not quite exact, but that is the exact mean length of a year by the Gregorian calendar. This is more appropriate, because the Gregorian calendar is being used to specify dates.) 400 years is exactly 146097 days, no matter which 400 years one counts. By a happy coincidence, this is exactly 20871 weeks. (This fact is of no practical use, except in the construction of perpetual calendars.)

For convenience, it can be conjectured that starships on extended voyages -- and maybe some civilians too -- use a standard year of length 365.2425 days. This doesn't mean they add on an extra 5.82 hours at the end of the year, but that they distribute it evenly throughout the year. This makes each day about 57.4 seconds longer than 24 hours. In fact, to make chronometers visually indistinguishable from those previously in use, the second would get longer.

This standard year is exactly 31556952 SI seconds long, but is internally divided into the usual 31536000 seconds. This makes the `chronological second' approximately 1.00066 SI seconds, and even Data would have difficulty distinguishing the two.

The two calendar styles could coexist quite easily, because they would rarely be more than a few hours different. In order for them to coexist over a long period of time, they must agree on what day of the week any particular date falls on. (A consequence of this is that existing perpetual calendars will still be applicable to the new calendar.) Where there would be a leap day in the old-style Gregorian calendar, there is merely a jump in the day of the week. For example, Wednesday 2396-02-28 would be followed by Friday 2396-03-01, missing out Thursday 2396-02-29 which would appear in the Gregorian calendar.

This new calendar will hereafter be called the "quad-cent calendar". It comes exactly into line with the old-style calendar every 400 years. Since the origin for ST:TNG stardates is 2323-01-01, that must be when the two calendars match up. (The next time will be 2723-01-01.) Hereafter, quad-cent calendar dates will be written like 2323*01*01, instead of 2323-01-01.

III.10. FOURTH PERIOD OF STARDATES: INTERMEDIATE, TCFS TO ST:TNG
SD 9521.5 corresponds to the date 2292-12-19. The digits run out and are reset to zero on 2295-08-03. This starts a special `issue' of stardates, whose sole purpose is to bridge the gap to 2323-01-01, when the new-style stardates take over. In this new issue, SD 5000.0 is 2322-12-20, almost exactly 30 years after STVI:TUC. This makes 2323-01-01 SD 5006.0. So stardate 5006.0 in that issue became stardate 00000.0, and the date, 2323-01-01, became 2323*01*01 for the purposes of stardates.

If Thanksgiving were twelve days later, these numbers would be unbelievably neat. So neat, in fact, that one might well reach the conclusion that this system was actually designed to work this way.

Pre-TOS Stardates (bear in mind this was written in 1997)

III.11. ZEROTH PERIOD OF STARDATES: BEFORE THE ORIGINAL SERIES
From the ST:TOS stardates we know that SD 1530 is 2266-11-21. Extending this back, SD 0000 is 2266-01-19, well after the beginning of the five-year mission. To go further back, we must go into an earlier issue of stardates. In this earlier issue, SD 9995 must be 2266-01-18 (one day before the ST:TOS stardate 0000). This makes SD 0000 in this issue 2260-07-29. Continuing this process backward, it should be possible to find a sensible starting point for all stardates.

The theory is here supported by the ST: DS9 episode "Equilibrium", which puts Joran Bella's birthdate at stardate 0024.7, and notes that this is in 2260. (This theory makes it 2260-08-02.) However, the same episode puts his death as stardate 8615.2 and 2286. This is not quite consistent with this theory, being two years out.

None of the major real-life space events is a 0000. The 43rd issue before the classic series has its 0000 on 2030-08-04, and 2030 is supposed to be the year of Zefram Cochrane's birth; this is a rather implausible candidate for the origin. The 37th issue before the classic series has its 0000 on 2063-06-12, just a couple of months after Cochrane's first demonstration of warp drive (2063-04-05, according to ST:FC). I think the powers that be here missed a great opportunity here. It looks like stardates just aren't based on any significant event in space travel.

The 19th issue before the ST:TOS stardates has its SD 0000 on 2162-01-04, which is tantalisingly close to 2161 (Federation incorporation). Taking this as the origin of stardates, it could mean that Starfleet originally used old-style Terran dates, but found them inappropriate for deep-space use. A few months after incorporation, then, they started up stardates.

If we call these first stardates `zeroth-issue', which will be written like [0]0000, ST:TOS uses 19th-issue stardates (e.g., [19]1530 is 2266-11-21). The partial issue to link the TCFS stardates with the ST:TNG stardates is the 20th issue, and ST:TNG stardates are 21st issue. This notation provides a convenient way to refer to stardates a long way from the current time.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

I contributed slightly to that FAQ myself, but I prefer to look for a theory that fits all the little examples in the franchise as a whole, not just the primary methods from the shows and movies – even though we can never come up with the Holy Grail of actual conversion algorithms (which is the overriding concern in that FAQ, to find something that does the job well while deviating from the franchise in less visible places).

 

[Lord Garth]

I think they really screwed the pooch with Discovery Stardates by having them be so random. They could've shown a working Pre-TOS System, even if it was different from the Kelvin Films. One of the reasons I don't like the randomness is the same as what others have said before. TOS can be viewed in any order. Disco can't.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

I think they really screwed the pooch with Discovery Stardates by having them be so random. They could've shown a working Pre-TOS System, even if it was different from the Kelvin Films. One of the reasons I don't like the randomness is the same as what others have said before. TOS can be viewed in any order. Disco can't.

At least it did make a contribution by demonstrating that a system resembling TOS stardates was used not only in 2256–2258 but also as early as 2155, if we accept 0141.7 as not just a Mirror Universe stardate. Did that scheme compete with the one from the Kelvin Timeline for a century, or was the latter specific to that reality in either direction? Imagine one person saying 1234.5 and another hearing 2258.6, courtesy of the universal translator. Tuvok could’ve easily been born on 38774 according to the local Vulcan system (unless it was 3877.4 before a rollover around 2264).