Starbase 11 registry chart

[Timo]

"Generic placeholder" is fine - we have to believe in some of that in TNG Okudagrams, especially as regards shuttle shapes (but also the Potemkin in "Second Chances").

The funny thing about Operation Retrieve is that most of the stuff on those charts is "to (artificial) scale", that is, not "in perspective" - the objects are not to scale with the distances, but OTOH planets don't get smaller if they are on the far side of the star. The Eagle being half the size of the Potemkin there, and the Potemkin being the appropriate size in comparison with the Excelsior, thus works out beautifully in establishing the Eagle as a lesser ship, regardless of whether her silhouette is generic or accurate.

As regards TOS, lesser ships really should include lesser starships. As of 2265, it makes no sense for Starfleet to have retired all starships introduced in 2245 or even 2225 - after all, it makes no sense for Starfleet to retire all the starships of 2265 when 2285 rolls along. The old-timers, yes - Kirk's relic could be from 2225 designwise, and long on the teeth due to the abuse imposed on her by the skipper. But there would always be multiple generations of starships around, the designation even within TOS explicitly applying to ships as old as the Archon.

Trying to insist that a TOS starship must be like Kirk's thus makes little sense. Yet it may further tempt one to think that "starship" and "only a dozen like her" would have some sort of a logical connection, or even equivalence, when nothing of the sort is supported by the show itself...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Yes, I meant that those other starships had the upgrade somewhat earlier than the Enterprise did

I love the idea that the in-universe reason the Enterprise was out of action at the beginning of Metamorphosis (#31) was that she was getting the Engineering upgrade, hence the emergency use of the shuttlecraft to get the critically ill Commissioner. As production order goes, the first appearance of the new Season 2 Engine Room was on the Constellation in The Doomsday Machine (#35). I am amazed on how different the Constellation's Engine Room was as compared to the last appearance of the Enterprise's Engine Room from Space Seed (#24). First impression is that the Constellation is internally a completely a different ship. Being a Commodore, I guess Decker got the latest improvements before junior Captain Kirk. One benefit on getting a later version is that the early system bugs (like balls on the central gizmo and exposed conduits) have been corrected on the Enterprise as first seen in The Changeling (#37).

Re-looking at Stone's dialog, he gives no information on moving work crews from the Intrepid to the Enterprise, so, she could be any ship on the list, from the least complete to the most complete:

Captain's Log, Stardate 2947.3. We have been through a severe ion storm. One crewman is dead. Ship's damage is considerable. I have ordered a non-scheduled layover on Starbase Eleven for repairs. A full report of damages was made to the commanding officer of Starbase Eleven, Commodore Stone.
[Stone's Office]
STONE: Maintenance Section Eighteen. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one.

Dialog shows there was a section actively working of the Intrepid. The list showed one ship (NCC-1831 (?)) at 100% complete with a green bar next to it. That ship looks complete, so, there should not be any work crews on it. Based on this, I conclude it is not the Intrepid. Putting the Enterprise on priority over the Intrepid tells me that the 83% complete Enterprise can be repaired and put quicker back in-service than any other ship on the list. After the 100% complete ship, the 83% Enterprise is the next highest complete ship. I conclude that the Intrepid is lower than that, perhaps near the bottom. Note NCC-1700 is at the bottom at 11% and NCC-1685 (?) is at 22%, but this is just conjecture, and she could be any of the ships. But in any case, we have at least two other Starships in port as reflected in the makeup of the Court Martial Jury: two Starship Captains (possibly from the 100% complete ship and the Intrepid) plus a non-starship guy. If there was more starships in port, then I would expect them to be on the court instead of the last guy. YMMV .

 

[Timo]

Or then the Intrepid is the 100% ship, as work on her has been completed by Stone's executive order (the green stamp?), that is, there will be no more work on her.

The percentages aren't likely to actually represent state of disrepair: it would be unlikely for any ship to be wrecked so badly as to warrant the lower percentages seen (with 100% standing for unharmed and 0% for lost).

OTOH, they are not particularly good indicators of work remaining, either: installation of a new frammistat may be 15% complete but finished in two minutes, while welding the reactor casing may be 89% complete but still require eight months of work. "Work remaining" might better be given in units of time anyway.

Byt what do the percentages stand for, then? Stone might be interested in seeing which ships can be launched next, even if he has to launch some at 45% complete. But how does the chart help him see whether the ship is missing the auxiliary napkin dispender or the port nacelle? Reducing just about any attribute to percentages is likely to render it uninformative.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Dialog shows there was a section actively working of the Intrepid. The list showed one ship (NCC-1831 (?)) at 100% complete with a green bar next to it. That ship looks complete, so, there should not be any work crews on it. Based on this, I conclude it is not the Intrepid.

The problem is that Stone is looking directly at the NCC-1831 line on the chart as he's talking about the Intrepid. So despite the dialogue, this seems to imply that the Intrepid's registry number is supposed to be 1831.

 

[BK613]

The problem is that Stone is looking directly at the NCC-1831 line on the chart as he's talking about the Intrepid. So despite the dialogue, this seems to imply that the Intrepid's registry number is supposed to be 1831.

Well, some fans interpret it that way. True be told, watching even at HD resolution, all you can really say is that he is looking at the top of the chart, then his gaze drops to the center of the chart before turning to the viewer to re-assign the maintenance section. Anything more is just fans reading into the scene (unless there is some existing script annotation I've never heard of.)

 

[Timo]

Or then the reassigning is a done deal, already reflected on the wall display. Who is Stone talking to anyway? Not to Kirk. Not to Maintenance Section 18, which does not need to be informed that it is the section working on the Intrepid. Probably not to a secretary, who also wouldn't need to be told the above. The same with any computerized aid or aide.

Significantly, nothing on the wall chart changes after Stone completes his monologue. So the change he is verbalizing could very well already have been implemented.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

True be told, watching even at HD resolution, all you can really say is that he is looking at the top of the chart...

...which is where the ship that’s 100% complete is located when he’s mentioning the Intrepid. And the fact that it’s the only ship complete enough to be moved to make way for the Enterprise is telling. Yes, it’s just fan interpretation, but it’s not just a hypothesis being pulled out of one’s rear end without any visual evidence to back it up.

 

[BK613]

...which is where the ship that’s 100% complete is located when he’s mentioning the Intrepid. And the fact that it’s the only ship complete enough to be moved to make way for the Enterprise is telling. Yes, it’s just fan interpretation, but it’s not just a hypothesis being pulled out of one’s rear end without any visual evidence to back it up.

As I said, an interpretation. A different one, and one based on my experience in the Navy and working with software, would be that "emergency repairs" get priority over "scheduled maintenance." The Intrepid is undergoing maintenance and is supposed to be there. The Enterprise isn't: it's suppose to out doing SF stuff that isn't getting done while it's laid up for repairs.

So pulling a crew off of one ship to work on another one that needs to be returned to duty as quickly as possible makes the most sense to me. And that interpretation does not require any status completion to be at any level for it to be so. In fact, a ship with one of the lower completion rates would be best, since work is just beginning on that vessel and making up the lost time over the length of work would be easier to manage.

My original point is that though is that all you can do is tell a general direction and not a specific line.

 

[yotsuya]

The operation Retrieve Charts have 18 different ships listed. Ignoring the questionable ones, it has Constitution, Excelsior, Oberth, Miranda, and Constellation class ships. We know Potemkin, Kongo, and Republic are indeed Cosntitution Class ships. Plus with Oberth, Excelsior, and Constellation on the list, we know those classes were represented (and the registries match). We saw Lantree in TNG so we know it is a Miranda class. Korolev (NCC-2014) and Emden (NCC-1856) are represented by the same ship icon (in size and shape) as Potemkin so assuming they are Constitution Class makes sense. Potemkin and Excelsior are not drawn to scale so assuming Eagle isn't a Constitution Class due to relative scale is questionable. Especially when you consider that on that drawing the Emden and Potemkin are not the same size where they are on the other sheet. So you have Eagle (NCC-956), Endeavor (NCC-1895), and Ahwahnee (NCC-2048) which appear to be Constitution Class from the silhouette. And that leaves John Muir (NCC-1732), Helin (NCC-1692), Whorfin (NCC-1024), Springfield (NCC-1963), Challenger (NCC-2032), and Scovill (NCC-1598) of undetermined class with several other known classes (and maybe some unknown) to pick from. So mostly Constitution Class, but not all. And only Constitution class and the Excelsior appear on the charts. Which makes sense if they are the top of the line ships. Also, the lofty TOS use of the word Starship ends with the markings on Reliant calling it Starship U.S.S. Reliant.

So in that Star Trek VI document (only barely seen on screen), we have a slightly wider range of registries than the 1017 to 1851 from Court Martial (and Doomsday Machine). And a wider selection of ships as well. I thought it was fun to see Constellation (NX-1974) on the list. It has a middle of nowhere registry like the Hermes class. It really ends the idea that the class ship must have a nice round number. So by that reasoning, the lowest number in Court Martial could be the Constellation. However, Franz Joseph's use of 1700 and his drawing appearing on screen on the displays really enforces that 1700 and Cosntitution are the same ship. At least to me. Excelsior also has a nice round number, but the Oberth and Constellation do not. And elsewhere other class ships also don't, like Galaxy, Ambassador, and Sovereign.

 

[Henoch]

Captain Krasnovsky is wearing a blue or science uniform. He is a Starship Captain supposedly of a Starship in port at Starbase 11 and one of the ships on the list. The Intrepid is definitely in port. About a year and a half or so later, it is lost in The Immunity Syndrome. It was manned by 400 Vulcans leaving about 30 unaccounted crew of different races. If it had a Vulcan Captain, then you'd think a Vulcan would make an excellent juror for the court, but this was not the case. I propose that Captain Krasnovsky was the Captain of the Intrepid because who better could lead a mostly Vulcan crew than a man from the sciences serving on a Starship devoted to science exploration. At least this is a tale that fits the limited on-screen evidence...YMMV.

 

[Dukhat]

Captain Krasnovsky is wearing a blue or science uniform. He is a Starship Captain supposedly of a Starship in port at Starbase 11 and one of the ships on the list. The Intrepid is definitely in port. About a year and a half or so later, it is lost in The Immunity Syndrome. It was manned by 400 Vulcans leaving about 30 unaccounted crew of different races. If it had a Vulcan Captain, then you'd think a Vulcan would make an excellent juror for the court, but this was not the case. I propose that Captain Krasnovsky was the Captain of the Intrepid because who better could lead a mostly Vulcan crew than a man from the sciences serving on a Starship devoted to science exploration. At least this is a tale that fits the limited on-screen evidence...YMMV.

That's a big leap you're making here. I always got the impression that the Intrepid being 'manned by Vulcans' meant that the entire crew were Vulcans, including the captain. And it's highly likely that this was the case 1 1/2 years before it was destroyed. So if Krasnovsky was in command of one of the ships currently at Starbase 11, I would think that it would have been any ship other than the Intrepid, probably a science vessel of some sort.

 

[Henoch]

I would think that it would have been any ship other than the Intrepid, probably a science vessel of some sort.

Not a science vessel unless it is a Starship devoted to science like you could find with a crew of Vulcans...

STONE: This court is now in session. I have appointed as members of this court Space Command Representative Lindstrom, Starship Captains Krasnovsky and Chandra.​

 

[Dukhat]

The Grissom was a science vessel and a starship and was not crewed entirely by Vulcans. And the Intrepid was never referred to as a science vessel despite the fact that it was crewed by Vulcans. So I'm not seeing the correlation.

 

[Henoch]

The Grissom was a science vessel and a starship and was not crewed entirely by Vulcans. And the Intrepid was never referred to as a science vessel despite the fact that it was crewed by Vulcans. So I'm not seeing the correlation.

I think the ship's mission is more akin to the NCC-1864 USS Reliant from ST:TWOK.

 

[Mysterion]

Aridas - your take on this make a lot of sense to me. Good work!

Constitution* 1700 "The Trouble with Tribbles"

But I don't recall a reference to USS Constitution in Tribbles. Not saying it ain't there, I just honestly do not recall ever seeing it. Can you elucidate on this a bit?

Henoch said:

Captain Krasnovsky is wearing a blue or science uniform. He is a Starship Captain supposedly of a Starship in port at Starbase 11 and one of the ships on the list. The Intrepid is definitely in port. About a year and a half or so later, it is lost in The Immunity Syndrome. It was manned by 400 Vulcans leaving about 30 unaccounted crew of different races. If it had a Vulcan Captain, then you'd think a Vulcan would make an excellent juror for the court, but this was not the case. I propose that Captain Krasnovsky was the Captain of the Intrepid because who better could lead a mostly Vulcan crew than a man from the sciences serving on a Starship devoted to science exploration. At least this is a tale that fits the limited on-screen evidence...YMMV.

Even if he was in command of Intrepid at the time of the events in Court Martial, he does not necessarily still need to be in command later during The Immunity Syndrome. Let's go ahead and call it 18 months as you stipulate: Krasnovsky might have moved on to nother assignment in that time - we don't know how long he'd been in command of Intrepid when we saw him, his tour of duty may have been close to an end at that point. In fact perhaps Intrepid was at Starbase 11 at this time for refit and crew replacements prior to embarking on the mission that ultimately led to The Immunity Syndrome, and this is when the ship gained it's majority vulcan crew. Krasnovsky, in the process of handing Intrepid over to a vulcan CO would have time to sit on Kirk's court martial proceedings, while Intrepid's new CO was overseeing the refit.

Just an alternate idea/scenario. YMMV.

 

[Henoch]

I think @aridas sofia is referring to the phaser technical manual display being studied by Scott.

 

[BK613]

"Technical journal" does not equal "manual." A technical journal is a periodical, usually peer-reviewed, which is why Scott needs to "catch up on" them. (I know that originally that transparency was created as a part of the Enterprise manual that Khan is reading in "Space Seed" but its canonical use in a journal means that the connection to the Enterprise is no slam dunk.)

 

[Mytran]

"Technical journal" does not equal "manual." A technical journal is a periodical, usually peer-reviewed, which is why Scott needs to "catch up on" them. (I know that originally that transparency was created as a part of the Enterprise manual that Khan is reading in "Space Seed" but its canonical use in a journal means that the connection to the Enterprise is no slam dunk.)

Fortunately this was NOT the slide that we saw Khan reading in Space Seed, so no harm no foul

 

[yotsuya]

I think @aridas sofia is referring to the phaser technical manual display being studied by Scott.

This is how it was used in the episode....

And this is what was used...

And here is Jefferies holding the original.

I believe it was an existing drawing of some miscellaneous part that he re-purposed into a Constitution Class phaser. This is the only instance of Constitution Class being used in TOS that I know of and it has no connection to NCC-1700. That connection was made independently by Greg Jein and Franz Joseph. Though I suspect that FJ has obtained something that had this information on it as his technical manual has MK-IX tied to Constitution Class.

Khan is looking at a completely different schematic in Space Seed. I have never seen any details of the drawing, but it could have a link to 1700 for Constitution.

The Court Martial list is kind of funny if you look at FJ's Tech manual ship list (I skipped the numbers he didn't use).
1709 - Valiant
1831 - Arided
1703 - Lexington
1701 - Enterprise
1718 - Excelsior
1700 - Constitution
And from the stardate, the Arided and Excelsior weren't even authorized yet (5930 and 3220 respectively and the episode is 2947.3).

 

[BK613]

These two links are informative:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/ncc-not-constitution-class.187942/page-3#post-7434841
http://www.startrekhistory.com/article4.html

(And the only time the word "manual" occurs in The Trouble with Tribbles is when Kirk suggests that Cyrano Jones provide "an instruction and maintenance manual" for the tribbles.)