Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Wadjda, Mar 3, 2014.
Name some good Sith.
Which is why I and others wouldn't mind seeing some stories about some.
I've played light-sided Sith in a few video games, as an aside. Something that is supported in the franchise despite yours and others sadly two-dimensional thinking. "Rawr, Jedi are gud and Sith are badz! So wut if some Jedi r badz even tho deys only supposed 2 be gud?! Sith kant be gud, dey's Sith!!!" That's all I'm really seeing from your "arguments."
The only reason you could do that in SWTOR is because switching classes would be way too complicated.
Add a bit of nuance and i agree.
By the way.
Light Sith. Note, also, that even there the Sith is called an organization because, just like the Jedi, that's all it fucking is. Individuals vary, no matter how far into the sand you want to stick your heads.
As an aside, you may want to look up people like Count Von Stauffenberg or Erwin Rommel. (Hint, they were "good" Nazis.)
The dark side, something that true Sith are defined by. That's not Sith as a species I'm talking about there, or Sith-trooper types who are just members of an organization such as the soldiers in KOTOR. The Banite Rule of Two Sith would be an example of the template. You don't get to be a Sith Lord in that order if you're all lightsidey. Your master wouldn't permit it. The closest thing to a "Light Sith" in the Banite Sith lineage was Darth Gravid, who tried turning to the light side in some fashion but was subsequently taken out by his apprentice - because he wasn't a real Sith anymore.
No. Jedi don't fall all the time and stay Jedi. If they fall, they're not really Jedi any more, even if no one repossesses their laminated membership card.
It all depends on how you define what is "Sith" and what is "Jedi". On the one hand, they're both quasi-religious orders, so a person must be initiated to be considered part of the respected orders and either choose to leave or be formally expelled to be considered to be a member no longer. On the other hand, those terms are often used as short hand for adepts of the dark and light sides respectively.
So yes, it's possible for a follower of the Sith Order to reject the dark side and seek the light while still *technically* being a Sith, just as a Jedi can fall to the dark side while still *technically* being a Jedi. But that's all it is, a technicality. An "evil" Jedi is a Jedi no more in his or her heart...but that doesn't automatically make them Sith either, just as a light side Sith by definition cannot be a true Sith at their core. But again, that doesn't make them Jedi.
It's also worth bearing in mind that not all light side force users are automatically Jedi, just as not all dark side adepts are actual Sith. Asajj Ventress was not a Sith, despite what she liked to claim. The Krath were not Sith, they just used Sith artefacts and knowledge for their own ends and were lead on by a Sith ghost. There's also a whole grey area of force users (including the original Je'daii) that do not hold exclusively to one of the other but strive for an internal balance of the two.
That said, stories centred around the Sith would give plenty of potential for good story telling and strong characters. You don't have to like what a person is doing to care about what happens to them. It's all about the execution. Just look at 'Breaking Bad'. At his core, Walter White was a nasty piece of work, but it's still a great show thanks mostly to that character.
Your first post in this thread stated, "There's nothing inherently evil in the Sith Code" ... which is, itself, the explicit mantra and interconnectedness of selfishness, conflict, strength, power and personal freedom (at the expense of freedom for all others). You weren't referring to an organization, but rather the inherently evil philosophy on which the organization was built. Anyone adhering to that code is dark ... is evil. In order for a Sith to become "light" is to reject those explicitly Dark Side (i.e. evil) values and, according to your own link on "Light Sith", those calling themselves a Light Sith - no longer adhering to that code - are no longer "pure". They were "hunted down" by the rest of the Sith for their lack of purity. Your own link also states that these "Light Sith" moved away from their code by "strengthening themselves with compassion and love". That's the redemptive quality that such a character would need to have to be the protagonist of a film - and it would fundamentally differentiate that character from being an adherent to the inherently evil Sith Code.
That would be Anakin Skywalker, by the way.
And yes, while there's a difference between strictly adhering to the dogma of an organization, and loyalty to that organization, maintaining an advocacy for the institution does not exonerate one from the evils of that institution, particularly if that person does nothing to change the institution itself. Rommel was still a Nazi. He fought for the regime that ruthlessly slaughtered millions. Defending him has a "Good (or Light) Nazi" is, to put it mildly, a dubious thing to say.
There are Jedi and Dark Jedi. The Sith are basically advanced Dark Jedi in some eras.
You mean just like true Jedi only use the light side, even though there's plenty that don't? And, as proven in my previous post, there have been Light Sith. It's a fact. Stomping your feet and trying to claim otherwise just makes you more wrong than you were to begin with. Utterly, completely, and embarrassingly wrong.
The Sith code is not evil. Individuals actions and interpretations of it can be, and most often are from all evidence we have, but it doesn't have to be. And there have been individuals who prove that to be true.
Both the Sith and the Jedi are just organizations and titles. Period. That's it. Sith != Dark Side and Jedi != Light Side. Sith = Someone in the Sith organization. Jedi = Someone in the Jedi organization.
I really, honestly have no idea why you people can't and won't grasp that, even when proven how wrong you are on the subject. I feel bad for you. I really do...
Except that they are, because that's what makes them a Jedi; being in the Jedi Order. Hence it being called the Jedi Order. Otherwise they're just fucking force-users.
Your examples do not prove a demand to the general population--the movie-going population who are the kind most likely to see another SW film.
Sith stories (anything EU) are fanboy territory with no widespread appeal. If the SW (the original) only focused on villains, 1977 would have been the beginning and end of the concept.
It's a good thing no one is asking for the franchise to only be about villains or the Sith, then.
And as he pointed out, some of the most critically acclaimed and beloved movies of people on this very forum are all about villains. Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Boondock Saints (say what you will, but they were murderers, even if they had a just cause), and Snatch are all examples right off the top of my head.
You mean, the Light Sith who were hunted down and eliminated because they were not "pure" enough Sith ... because they followed the Light of "compassion and love" that turned them from the inherently evil Sith Code (which preaches that peace is a lie and that repeats, through the embrace of conflict - i.e. "peace is a lie" - "I gain strength ... I gain power ... I gain victory" ... "my chains are broken" and "free me" without reference to the betterment of anyone else)? You mean the Light Sith who actively sought to destroy the collected works of the pure, evil (selfish, non-compassionate) Sith?
Or, in other words, the Light Sith, who wanted to act compassionately, and actively sought to destroy the knowledge of the "pure" Sith, didn't follow the inherently evil Sith Code. That is what made them Light. Because they rejected the Dark of the inherently evil Sith Code.
SWTOR cost 200 mill. It's indicative of the demand out there.
Yep! The ones who, you know, existed, despite your claims that they couldn't. Those ones.
Just like the Dark Jedi, who are also hunted down whenever possible by those "peace loving" Jedi.
He's asking for a "Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff," which is the polar opposite of what SW is about. SW is universally (i.e. to the mainstream moviegoer) seen as about the journey of an ultra heroic young man (and assorted allies), that is the public focus of SW.
The Sith are merely antagonists, but not the driving characters or plot of SW. Their effect is only there to see how the hero reacts/learns from his struggles. That is why the original trilogy worked so well.
This latter day focus on Sith is the interest of fanboys overdosing on EU--not the mainstream.
...which has no bearing on a series about the journey of a hero. Star Wars is Star Wars, not Reservoir Dogs, or any other exercise in nihilistic behavior, so "well, it works in other films" does not apply at all.
STar Wars = conflict in a sci fi setting. Disney will milk tot he bone so it could happen. We already had Sith centric CW episodes.
Every formula gets boring after a while.
If they do a movie like that right it will be part of the mainstream.
Such as? Don't tell me you're just talking about the certainly-not-in-any-way-doomed Anakin Skywalker again. That's all of one person, I don't think he qualifies as a "plenty".
So, super double plus wrong then?
Again, a light side user wouldn't pass muster as a Sith Lord in Bane's order, Krayt's order, etc. Just ask Gravid. It's the difference between being a true Sith and just someone who does whatever they want and still humorously insists on being called "Sith" in essentially meaningless fashion.
What defines a true Sith is adherence to the dark side, and that correlates with evil because of the nature of the dark side.
The fallen never stay in the order for long once found out. I wonder why that is? Probably has to do with the whole corruption thing and the Jedi not wanting darksiders in their midst. But what do they know? By all means keep clinging to the "laminated Jedi membership card" mentality - I'm sure that's not, you know, entirely meaningless in the eyes of the Force or anything.
Dark Jedi, you say? But I thought it was all about titles and organizations. Surely you know that so-called "Dark Jedi" are actually not members of the Jedi organization ( the above quote basically says as much ) and don't have the coveted Jedi title, so they don't really do much to help your position.
I'll just reply with one question, and then I'm done. You can't argue with rabid fanboys foaming at the mouth, regardless of how illogical or ridiculous they're being.
The question: If you're a Jedi just because you use the light side of the force, and you're a Sith just because you use the dark side of the force, why the fuck are there both Dark Jedi and Light Sith in the franchise?
And I'm done.
You were already done before that.
Because being a Jedi means more than just using the Light Side of the Force. Being a Sith means more than just using the Dark Side of the Force.
A Light Sith is not a true Sith, because that individual is making use of the Light Side (love and compassion) and is not, therefore strictly adhering to the inherently evil Sith Code (which is what makes one a true Sith). Nor is a Dark Jedi a true Jedi, because that individual is making use of the Dark Side (aggression, fear, power).
It's worth noting that both types of individuals, once they are discovered, are at the very least cast out of their respective orders (and, in many cases, are hunted down).
Separate names with a comma.