And once again we're back to absence of evidence.
I don't name-drop Thomas Jefferson every day either.
Star Wars I-III, Gotham, and DSC: a study in prequels (and how DSC isn’t a TOS prequel?)
- Thread starter Groppler Zorn
- Start date
I don't name-drop Thomas Jefferson every day either.
Lack of evidence *yet*
Also if I invented a president as a historical retcon you’d want evidence of them
Good thing Star Trek isn't real life.Lack of evidence *yet*
Also if I invented a president as a historical retcon you’d want evidence of them
Yes I’m often struck by the utter pointlessness if discussing a fictional franchise over which I have no direct influence.
My previous point still stands btw
And I never said lack of evidence of Michael after DSC was a bad thing. Just an observation
Also since Star Trek is on the telly and not a collective hallucination it exists in real life...
I feel the sudden urge to start talking about James K. Polk. He's a President no one ever talks about but yet he's the one who actually accomplished Manifest Destiny.
Everything I know about Polk I learned from “how I met your mother”
But I’m guessing he wasn’t recently created as part of a revisionist history of US presidents?
While we're on the subject of how DSC behaves as a prequel, I'm still of the mind that it won't stay a prequel. The spore drive already jumped nine months into the future. I equate that to Back to the Future's sending Einstein one minute into the future. The test before the real thing.
I think Discovery is "lost" and ends up at the turn of the 25th Century. That gets rid of the Spore Drive in the 23rd Century because between the disappearance and the crap that went on the first season, they'll write it off as a failure. And it'll be something the Klingons can't duplicate for whatever technobabble reason.
So, with DSC ending up around 2399/2400, you can have crossovers with Picard. If they want to go back to the 23rd Century, then that's what Pike is for. If they go that route.
Only my speculation about how I think things will ultimately play out.
I actually wouldn’t mind that. They could even do the original anthology series idea as well if they wanted to - spending a series in a different time period if they figure out how to work the spore drive as a time machine
So she fits right in with TOS
Uhura, Sulu, Chekov and Scotty only ever get mention/appear in "Relics", "Trials and Tribble-ations", "Tattoo" and "Flashback", all of which feature TOS characters except for Tattoo where Chakotay mentions that Sulu sponsired him for the Academy.
Spock got mentioned in "Sarek" and "Face of the Enemy", "Lower Decks", "Crossover", "Ex Posto Facto", "Alliances", "Flashback" and "Endgame" and he appeared in "Unification, Part I" and "Unification, Part II". Spock cheats by still being alive and doing stuff in the TNG era, so the references in "The Face of the Enemy", "Lower Decks" and "Endgame" refer to the current day Spock, "Sarek" is a personal thing and "Crossover", "Ex Posto Facto", "Alliances" and "Flashback" refer to him as a historical figure (most notably "Crossover".)
McCoy appeared in "Trials and Tribble-ations" and got mentioned in "Lifesigns", "Flashback" and "Message in a Bottle". In "Lifesigns" and "Message in a Bottle" he gets mentioned for his medical achievements and in "Flashback" due to his involvement in STVI.
Kirk appeared in Star Trek Generations and "Trials and Tribble-ations" and gets mentioned in "The Naked Now", "Unification, Part II", "Relics", Star Trek Nemesis, "Crossover", "The Sword of Kahless", "Flashback", "Concerning Flight", "Q2" and "Friendship One". All of these except for "Relics" refer to Kirk in a historical way, with Star Trek Nemesis having a maneuver named after Kirk.
Now, let's do the math!
"Flashback", "Crossover", "Ex Posto Facto", "Alliances", "The Naked Now", "Unification, Part II", "Relics", Star Trek Nemesis, "The Sword of Kahless", "Concerning Flight", "Q2" and "Friendship One" make historical (either general, military or medical) mention of TOS characters, so did, presumably, Star Trek Generations and "Trials and Tribble-ations" (I'm just too lazy to look up specific examples). If we add all these together we get 15 episodes or movies that make mention of TOS characters as historical persons (not old friend, academy sponsors or the like). TNG, DS9, VGR, the four TNG movies and "These are the Voyages" add up to 522 installments. Thus we can determine (by using conventional math) that 2.87% of all 24th century installments make mention of historical TOS characters. That isn't too much more than DSC's 0%. (That could of course also change if The Picard Show mentions Burnham, maybe with Defense pattern Burnham Epsilon, where one gets ones Captain killed on a Klingon ship. It is a very specific degense pattern
)Well, yay math, I guess.
This is the power of math people!So she fits right in with TOS
Uhura, Sulu, Chekov and Scotty only ever get mention/appear in "Relics", "Trials and Tribble-ations", "Tattoo" and "Flashback", all of which feature TOS characters except for Tattoo where Chakotay mentions that Sulu sponsired him for the Academy.
Spock got mentioned in "Sarek" and "Face of the Enemy", "Lower Decks", "Crossover", "Ex Posto Facto", "Alliances", "Flashback" and "Endgame" and he appeared in "Unification, Part I" and "Unification, Part II". Spock cheats by still being alive and doing stuff in the TNG era, so the references in "The Face of the Enemy", "Lower Decks" and "Endgame" refer to the current day Spock, "Sarek" is a personal thing and "Crossover", "Ex Posto Facto", "Alliances" and "Flashback" refer to him as a historical figure (most notably "Crossover".)
McCoy appeared in "Trials and Tribble-ations" and got mentioned in "Lifesigns", "Flashback" and "Message in a Bottle". In "Lifesigns" and "Message in a Bottle" he gets mentioned for his medical achievements and in "Flashback" due to his involvement in STVI.
Kirk appeared in Star Trek Generations and "Trials and Tribble-ations" and gets mentioned in "The Naked Now", "Unification, Part II", "Relics", Star Trek Nemesis, "Crossover", "The Sword of Kahless", "Flashback", "Concerning Flight", "Q2" and "Friendship One". All of these except for "Relics" refer to Kirk in a historical way, with Star Trek Nemesis having a maneuver named after Kirk.
Now, let's do the math!
"Flashback", "Crossover", "Ex Posto Facto", "Alliances", "The Naked Now", "Unification, Part II", "Relics", Star Trek Nemesis, "The Sword of Kahless", "Concerning Flight", "Q2" and "Friendship One" make historical (either general, military or medical) mention of TOS characters, so did, presumably, Star Trek Generations and "Trials and Tribble-ations" (I'm just too lazy to look up specific examples). If we add all these together we get 15 episodes or movies that make mention of TOS characters as historical persons (not old friend, academy sponsors or the like). TNG, DS9, VGR, the four TNG movies and "These are the Voyages" add up to 522 installments. Thus we can determine (by using conventional math) that 2.87% of all 24th century installments make mention of historical TOS characters. That isn't too much more than DSC's 0%. (That could of course also change if The Picard Show mentions Burnham, maybe with Defense pattern Burnham Epsilon, where one gets ones Captain killed on a Klingon ship. It is a very specific degense pattern
Well, yay math, I guess.
And I totally agree with your analysis here.
It’s actually along the lines of the point I was trying to make. Sort of. I mean, as much I dislike Michael I wasn’t complaining that she’s not mentioned after DSC - I was just observing.
If anything Michael’s lack of mention only makes Spock’s achievements more noteworthy if (*if*) Micheal makes some of the same ones because he went on to be a legend despite his older sister being infamous and his brother being a crackpot! Nobody had heard of the other two but they’d heard of Spock!
Yay, math people unite!
I didn't mean to object to anything you said, just do the math on exactly how often Kirk and co were mentioned. Yay for observation! Or recording. If you're a Rigellian and into that
451.Well, Spock has some advantages over Michael, for examples he's younger and has a longer life span. FWIW I think Spock has already cemented himself as the Sarek offspring with the biggest influence; he was critical in establishing lasting peace with the Klingons in the 90s and planted the seeds of dissent in mirror Spock's mind that led to the Terran Empire's downfall. The dude has a serious track record of influencing interstellar politics on a huge scale. Even after he did all that he still worked on making peace with the Romulans.If anything Michael’s lack of mention only makes Spock’s achievements more noteworthy if (*if*) Micheal makes some of the same ones because he went on to be a legend despite his older sister being infamous and his brother being a crackpot! Nobody had heard of the other two but they’d heard of Spock!
...and for all we know, he was actually talking about Demora there! (I mean, he did say "he," but people do sometimes transition, right @Jinn? Also could be another relative.) Hikaru definitely has a portrait up at SF Headquarters per "Flashback" (VGR) though!
-MMoM
[P.S. -- I'll try to get back to some other delayed replies in this thread later on today or tonight. Rest assured, I didn't forget anyone...even if I haven't mentioned them in a while!
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It's obviously a reference to Sulu's husband from Beyond who, after Sulu's tragic death devoted himself to Starfleet. Duh.
One more quick tidbit before I sign off for a while to deal with pesky, so-called "real" life: Chekov apparently did get a starship named after him, even if it met with a grim fate in "The Best Of Both Worlds Part II" (TNG)...
-MMoM
That's kinda goofy looking.
Ah no worries - sorry if I seemed a little defensive! I worry that my posts come across as disconegative sometimes and although I’m not DSC’s biggest fan, not everything I say about it is meant to be negative!I didn't mean to object to anything you said, just do the math on exactly how often Kirk and co were mentioned. Yay for observation! Or recording. If you're a Rigellian and into that
That was some *serious* maths by the way! I think Tilly would be proud! I suppose TNG didn’t refer to TOS all that often when you think about it. Maybe that was for the best in the early years to help it stand on its own?
That’s true. Even when he pushed back against Sarek (with the Romulans especially) he ended up having timeline altering effects. Sybok pushed back against emotion and it got him into an eternal battle with god. Michael didn’t seem to push back at all and it got her into a position of apparent insignificance - relative to Spock - based solely on DSC s1 at any rate.
Which he was encouraged to do by Sarek - one of the few times father and son were on the same wavelength
Thanks to doctor McCoy’s brain!
Sarek, the federation council, starfleet, captain Picard, and the prime timeline be damned - he did it anyway!
I would love to see a scene (or several episodes) in DSC with all 3 of Sarek’s children to see how each one of them got to where they would eventually end up. There’s so much potential there.
Unless they acknowledge that Star Trek V was a dream in which case my hopes for Sybok are dashed...
So vas its namesake keptin.
At least they didn’t make the ship wear the Monkees wig...
Ah no worries - sorry if I seemed a little defensive! I worry that my posts come across as disconegative sometimes and although I’m not DSC’s biggest fan, not everything I say about it is meant to be negative!
Ah, shit, I hoped I could keep up answering with smilies
I don't think Spock actually planned that, but you never know. Ah, they said there would be days like that...
Well, she did at the end of Discovery. She was against blowing up Qo'noS while Sarek was in favor of it, and it turned out to end the war anyway, without commiting genocide. Although helping to destryo Qo'noS would have probably make her more famous than the alternative.
Well, it's probably to early to already compare the two, after all Spock had 133 years to do cool shit and Burnham had like one and a half (9 months of which were skipped by time travel). For what little time she had she also played a major part in changing the mirror universe by kidnapping their Empress and she ended a Klingon War. That is not bad for a year and a half. I for example only ended a Cardassian War in that time, so she already outdid me
Yay!
Still better than "Spock's Brain".
They can still say that it was Spock's dream and Sybok actually existed. Or just don't say that it was a dream at all
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One more quick tidbit before I sign off for a while to deal with pesky, so-called "real" life: Chekov apparently did get a starship named after him, even if it met with a grim fate in "The Best Of Both Worlds Part II" (TNG)...
-MMoM
It's a gunship.
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