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Star Wars I-III, Gotham, and DSC: a study in prequels (and how DSC isn’t a TOS prequel?)

Here again, by such logic Return of the Jedi can't be regarded as a true sequel to SW...because if scenes deleted from the original count, then Jabba the Hutt looked like this:

mulholland.jpg


-MMoM:D

It isn't about the deleted scenes, it is about the feel of the material.
 
Here again, by such logic Return of the Jedi can't be regarded as a true sequel to SW...because if scenes deleted from the original count, then Jabba the Hutt looked like this:

mulholland.jpg


-MMoM:D
My original point - which I admittedly didn’t make clearly enough, much to my chagrin - was that DSC isn’t a *direct* prequel to TOS insofar as they’ve not made a direct precursor to any specific TOS story. Unlike the SW prequels which were deliberately written to set up events in a story that would follow (“Star Wars”) and Gotham, which deliberately features characters like the penguin and scarecrow and the riddler etc. DSC isn’t the same kind of prequel as it’s operating in a larger universe.

I really don’t want to come across like I’m trying to prove some kind of fundamental point about the validity of DSC as a Star Trek show. I just noticed a difference when compared to some other prequels :)
 
It isn't about the deleted scenes, it is about the feel of the material.
That's where you lose me. DISCO shouldn't feel like TOS, even though they are set in more or less the same era. DISCO is DISCO and TOS is TOS. Even shows set in the same era and Universe don't feel the same. TNG, DS9 and VOY are all set in the same era, yet have different feels. Legends of Tomorrow, Flash and Green Arrow are all set in the same Universe, but have different feels. Even Laverne and Shirly and Happy Days have different feels. The only show that needs to feel like TOS is TOS. So only a show set on the Enterprise, with the same characters in the same time frame should feel like TOS. Even a Pike show should feel different because it's a different crew and a different era.
 
It isn't about the deleted scenes, it is about the feel of the material.
Well, that's rather vague. Why should it need to have the same "feel" in order for you to consider it a prequel? (Don't get me wrong here, I'm not suggesting you aren't free to look at it any way you like as an individual viewer; I'm just trying to better understand your point of view, since I clearly don't.)

My original point - which I admittedly didn’t make clearly enough, much to my chagrin - was that DSC isn’t a *direct* prequel to TOS insofar as they’ve not made a direct precursor to any specific TOS story. Unlike the SW prequels which were deliberately written to set up events in a story that would follow (“Star Wars”) and Gotham, which deliberately features characters like the penguin and scarecrow and the riddler etc. DSC isn’t the same kind of prequel as it’s operating in a larger universe.

I really don’t want to come across like I’m trying to prove some kind of fundamental point about the validity of DSC as a Star Trek show. I just noticed a difference when compared to some other prequels :)
I didn't mean to imply that you were. My previous responses weren't aimed at you.:)

As for your overall point, I haven't actually seen any of Gotham, but my outsider's understanding is that it's not intended to specifically set up or directly tie in with any previous version of Batman continuity—except perhaps on a metafictional level—i.e. the writers probably take into account that the audience is likely to have at least a general shared awareness of various previous iterations, which I imagine hangs ever-present the background and influences the choices they make with respect to characterizations, etc.

But, in my perception, DSC clearly is meant to tie in with TOS and the other shows and films, in more specific and direct ways than that (I would say more so than most of ENT, even). "Lethe" (DSC) ties directly into "Journey To Babel" (TOS), "Magic To Make The Sanest Man Go Mad" (DSC) ties directly into "I, Mudd" (TOS), and there are various threads throughout tied to "The Trouble With Tribbles" (TOS), "Mirror, Mirror" (TOS), "The Tholian Web" (TOS)—along with other later stories that built on them as well, like "In A Mirror, Darkly" (ENT) for example—and so on. Spock and Pike will be featured in Season Two, as well.

Some of these ties may be more or less overt/subtle/consequential/trivial than others, but they're definitely and palpably there, within the plots. Even many of what have seemed at first blush like glaring discontinuities have ended up being resolved in such a way as to leave the stage meticulously set for what follows, as I have little doubt others will go on to be. That seems to me part and parcel of their fundamental modus operandi with this show. It's deliberately designed and presented so as to inform (and in some ways, alter) our view of the original and its other descendants by adding previously-unknown (and often unexpected) context to it, within the same overarching narrative continuity. It's a prequel to all of them, but more so to TOS than any other. (Of course, it's also meant to tell its own story and have it's own distinct look and "feel" as well. It seeks a balance between the push and pull of those two aims, and thus far it's managed to strike an appealing one...for me, anyway.)

-MMoM:D
 
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I still don't see Discovery as a prequel in the traditional sense. It's just a Star Trek spin off set in roughly the same era as TOS. If Burnham hadn't been made Spock's sister it would hardly have any relation to TOS. Throwing in the Mirror Universe, Pike, Sarek and other popular elements of TOS is just the same as TNG, DS9 and Voyager doing the same with that sort of stuff between themselves to draw in fans.

I just think all the other shows did a better job of establishing their own identities before relying so heavily on elements of the other shows. You can say they mined the guest star spots early in their runs but those were one off appearances. I'm really surprised Discovery spent half a season in the Mirror Universe before establishing itself in its own lane. And it looks like Season 2 is going hell for leather with Spock, Pike and Section 31. By Season Two of the other shows they'd already gotten into new races and conflicts. Discovery is going over old ground with the Klingons yet again but not in a way that actually adds anything to what we already know. It's just extra stuff that doesn't matter in the later shows.

Enterprise is an oddity. It is a prequel and justifies that fact by attempting to be more antiquated than the other spin offs but it still looks more advanced than TOS:lol:
 
I remember when Smallville was in its run that some fans called it a "preboot", which was a portmanteau of prequel and reboot... a hybrid. The show was its own thing in many ways, but also incorporated many elements of other versions of Superman, mostly the Christopher Reeves films.

I've kind of begun to think of Disco as being the same, a preboot. It has prequel elements, but it's doing its own thing too. I still think they would do themselves a favor by retroactively establishing Disco as being in an alternate timeline just to get the diehards off their back, but I personally don't need this.
 
Even shows set in the same era and Universe don't feel the same. TNG, DS9 and VOY are all set in the same era, yet have different feels. Legends of Tomorrow, Flash and Green Arrow are all set in the same Universe, but have different feels.
There's "tone" (which is what I think you mean by feel) and aesthetic "feel". Those shows may have different tones, but they still seem like they're set in the same universe as the other shows they ostensibly co-exist with. Disco and TOS... not so much.

(Though TOS is the odd one out there among all the Trek shows - everything, including Disco, feels related to the TOS movies. It's just TOS proper that's the odd one out, for obvious reasons.)

Enterprise is an oddity. It is a prequel and justifies that fact by attempting to be more antiquated than the other spin offs but it still looks more advanced than TOS:lol:
They had to strike a balance between "look older than TOS" and "not get laughed off the screen". Overall, I think they did an okay job of making it seem less advanced than TOS. Not perfect, but better than I'd hoped.
 
There's "tone" (which is what I think you mean by feel) and aesthetic "feel". Those shows may have different tones, but they still seem like they're set in the same universe as the other shows they ostensibly co-exist with. Disco and TOS... not so much.
Bill said "feel" so that's what I went with.
They had to strike a balance between "look older than TOS" and "not get laughed off the screen". Overall, I think they did an okay job of making it seem less advanced than TOS. Not perfect, but better than I'd hoped.
DISCO had to do the same thing.
 
As for your overall point, I haven't actually seen any of Gotham, but my outsider's understanding is that it's not intended to specifically set up or directly tie in with any previous version of Batman continuity—except perhaps on a metafictional level—i.e. the writers probably take into account that the audience is likely to have at least a general shared awareness of various previous iterations, which I imagine hangs ever-present the background and influences the choices they make with respect to characterizations, etc.
I think that’s a fair assessment. They’re definitely influenced by the Nolan films - their version of the joker and the scarecrow lean heavily on the Dark Knight trilogy. Only really Dr Bashir has changed since he was on DS9... But yes it’s like an introduction to the general Batman story (which has been told several times). Star Trek is a different kettle of fish in terms of the zeitgeist knowledge I think.

But, in my perception, DSC clearly is meant to tie in with TOS and the other shows and films, in more specific and direct ways than that (I would say more so than most of ENT, even). "Lethe" (DSC) ties directly into "Journey To Babel" (TOS), "Magic To Make The Sanest Man Go Mad" (DSC) ties directly into "I, Mudd" (TOS), and there are various threads throughout tied to "The Trouble With Tribbles" (TOS), "Mirror, Mirror" (TOS), "The Tholian Web" (TOS)—along with other later stories that built on them as well, like "In A Mirror, Darkly" (ENT) for example—and so on. Spock and Pike will be featured in Season Two, as well.
See this is why I enjoy discussing DSC with you as you see these kinds of links - I missed a lot of these the first time round, I suppose my initial dislike of DSC had me with blinkers on :lol:

I guess the only point I’d make here is that “magic” seemed to be the only one that could be considered a direct prequel at the end - but it’s not as though that episode was “how mudd learned of the beauty drug and decided to become a sex trafficker”, so it wasn’t a direct prequel to that episode. More of a prequel to Mudd the character that fleshed out his unexpected backstory.

I’d say the same for “Lethe” insofar as I don’t think they sat down and thought “let’s write a prequel to journey to Babel”. The interactions we see in that episode are more about Sarek and Micheal than they are about Sarek and Spock. The links to TOS seem more incidental than a deliberate attempt to write the story behind a particular episode.

I suppose the question becomes: do we want to see a Trek prequel that’s like Gotham? So in the latter we see the origins of the riddler and the joker etc. Do we want to see another Kirk origin story? Kirk at the academy with Finnegan etc.? Or do we want to see the circumstances that led the Coridan planets to consider federation membership that would ultimately lead to the Babel conference? (For me, it’s no to the former, but yes to the latter). I suppose any overt references like that might be considered to be too much in the way of “fanservice”.

Even many of what have seemed at first blush like glaring discontinuities have ended up being resolved in such a way as to leave the stage meticulously set for what follows, as I have little doubt others will go on to be.
That’s true I guess - the Gorn skeleton hinting at Lorca’s mirror universeness is evidence of that.

It's a prequel to all of them, but more so to TOS than any other.
This is a fair summation of DSC I think - that and it being a sequel to Enterprise (as was pointed out above somewhere).
 
Yeah...that's not how it works. Peck and Nimoy are playing the same character.
Only inasmuch as the various James Bond actors are the same character. I sincerely hope Ethan Peck is attempting his own version of Spock, because attempting to exactly replicate Nimoy's version (or Quinto's, for that matter) will only end in failure.
Neither did Luke Skywalker in Star Wars (which wasn't originally titled Episode IV: A New Hope, either).
Had they left Leia's reveal until The Last Jedi, it might be a close analogy.
And as long as we're repeating memes from other threads...
Yes, and the information I have tells me they've deliberately reimagined Star Trek visually and altered the lore (to a similar extent to Smallville, Gotham and the rest) but slapped "Prime Universe" on it to appease a section of the fan base they believe will buy anything with "prime" slapped on it.
 
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I sincerely hope Ethan Peck is attempting his own version of Spock, because attempting to exactly replicate Nimoy's version (or Quinto's, for that matter) will only end in failure.

It sounds like he's going to be like 'The Cage' Spock.

but slapped "Prime Universe" on it to appease a section of the fan base they believe will buy anything with "prime" slapped on it.

I don't believe that at all.
 
Take a house. Remove huge chunks of it and replace them with shiny new parts. Keep doing that until there's nothing left of the original house.

That's what CBS are doing to The Original Series with this ridiculous retconning.

Spock always had a sister. Spock always looked like Ethan Peck. The Klingons always looked like that. That was always what a D7 cruiser and Bird of Prey looked like. The Enterprise was always bigger and looked like that. The classic uniforms are wrong, they actually all dressed in bright versions of the Disco unis all along.
 
Take a house. Remove huge chunks of it and replace them with shiny new parts. Keep doing that until there's nothing left of the original house.

That's what CBS are doing to The Original Series with this ridiculous retconning.

Spock always had a sister. Spock always looked like Ethen Peck. The Klingons always looked like that. That was always what a D7 cruiser and Bird of Prey looked like. The Enterprise was always bigger and looked like that. The classic uniforms are wrong, they actually all dressed in bright versions of the Disco unis all along.

A reboot by a thousand retcons! :techman:
 
Take a house. Remove huge chunks of it and replace them with shiny new parts. Keep doing that until there's nothing left of the original house.

That's what CBS are doing to The Original Series with this ridiculous retconning.

Spock always had a sister. Spock always looked like Ethan Peck. The Klingons always looked like that. That was always what a D7 cruiser and Bird of Prey looked like. The Enterprise was always bigger and looked like that. The classic uniforms are wrong, they actually all dressed in bright versions of the Disco unis all along.

Until CBS remasters TOS to make it match DSC and completely stops selling TOS merch, then no, that isn't happening.
 
Take a house. Remove huge chunks of it and replace them with shiny new parts. Keep doing that until there's nothing left of the original house.

That's what CBS are doing to The Original Series with this ridiculous retconning.

Spock always had a sister. Spock always looked like Ethen Peck. The Klingons always looked like that. That was always what a D7 cruiser and Bird of Prey looked like. The Enterprise was always bigger and looked like that. The classic uniforms are wrong, they actually all dressed in bright versions of the Disco unis all along.
Star Trek isn't a house
Spock looks like Spock. Ethan Peck is just an actor playing Spock.
The Enterprise will look like that until it doesn't.
The classic uniforms aren't wrong, they've just updated the look.

Your post is almost a text book example of trying to be offended for the sake of being offended. :lol:
Dial back a bit, you're going OTT. The shtick works better when it's not at 11. :)
 
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