Star Wars: Episode VII: The Nerd Rage Awakens

[kirk55555]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

If anything, Anakin's origins make Palpatine/Sidious a lot more sinister and more interesting. Anakin was going to be the great hope of the Sith to pacify and rule the galaxy after the temporary placeholders of Maul and Tyranus (Dooku) had been disposed of. Palpatine had a diabolical scheme that predated Episode I by a number of years and this little freed slave boy with a good heart was going to play a significant role in helping him accomplish his dark, sinister goals.

Anakin was a pawn the whole time but didn't realize it until years later, and by then it was too late. One can criticize and dislike Hayden's performance as much as they want but Anakin's fate and downfall were tragic and made Palpatine an even bigger bastard and villain than we already believed him to be.

Well, I definitely believe that Palpatine's manipulations of Anakin after he met him helped lead to Anakin's fall, that was a definite thing in ROTS. I just don't think Palpatine or his master literally made Anakin. He just found someone he figured would make a good apprentice, and so made seducing him to the dark side part of his plans.

As for Hayden's performance and Anakin in general, I've actually been noticing that I've started liking Anakin because of The Clone Wars cartoon. Seriously, he's likeable, and you can still see the hints of darkness in him without him becoming whiny. TCW Anakin is how Anakin should have been as an adult in the prequels, which probably comes down more to writing and direction than acting. I think if the movie Anakin had been written more like TCW version, it would have been more effective and worked out better than what we got.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

although Sith suggests a slightly different take on it if you want to read Palpatine's story a certain way.

I've never seen any evidence that that was any more than an insinuation meant to tantalize Anakin, words uttered by someone well established to twist the truth to his own advantage.

What evidence would there be? I think the whole point of the scene is you will never know.

Huh? I don't get you. What do you mean, what evidence would there be? It's always a line of dialog here, a line there, maybe something Lucas said in an interview somewhere. Evidence of intent can come from all sorts of places. It's there to be discovered, only because none of us individually know all the trivia there is to know about Star Wars.

There are actual reasons to doubt what Palpatine said at the opera, anyway. It can't all be true that Plagueis taught Palpatine everything he knew, that Plagueis achieved the power to cheat death, and that Sidious needs Vader's help to discover that power.

We may never know, but it's hardly the case that we have reasons to believe anything that Palpatine says, much less what he might suggest between the lines or insinuate. Palpatine is simply not a credible source of information.

 

[kirk55555]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Anakin's mother had sex with either a) a man she didn't know, b) someone whose identity she didn't want anyone to know or c) someone who she just doesn't remember. Anakin is not Space Jesus, and he fell to the darkside because of his own choices, not because destiny said he had to.

Assumes facts contrary to evidence. Palpatine strait-out tells the audience "I created Anakin." But you choose to ignore that because you don't like it and make up your own thing? Whatever.

Palpatine never said he created Anakin, not even remotely. There is not one line of dialog where he directly said he or his master used the force to make a baby magically grow in a Tatooine slave woman's womb. The only line(s) about Anakin being Space Jesus were the very ambiguous, open to interpretation stuff his mother said. Palpatine may have "made" Anakin in that he manipulated him into being what he wanted him to be, but he didn't literally create him.

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Well no matter how you try to justify it, I still have a hard time seeing any of Hayden's whiny, stalkerish Anakin in the Vader of the OT. Even when you factor in the amount of time or the corrupting influence of the dark side, they still just feel like two completely different characterizations to me.

I know we just have to accept that this is Vader's backstory now, but I don't think it'll ever feel truly believable to me.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Palpatine never said he created Anakin, not even remotely. There is not one line of dialog where he directly said he or his master used the force to make a baby magically grow in a Tatooine slave woman's womb.

"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life."

 

[DarthTom]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Well no matter how you try to justify it, I still have a hard time seeing any of Hayden's whiny, stalkerish Anakin in the Vader of the OT. Even when you factor in the amount of time or the corrupting influence of the dark side, they still just feel like two completely different characterizations to me.

I know we just have to accept that this is Vader's backstory now, but I don't think it'll ever feel truly believable to me.

Meh, he was much older by ROJ. A lifetime of bitterness and hatred changes most people a lot. I think it's realistic. Ever meet anyone IRL who has been angry about something for a very long time - I have. They aren't the same person you knew before.

 

[kirk55555]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Palpatine never said he created Anakin, not even remotely. There is not one line of dialog where he directly said he or his master used the force to make a baby magically grow in a Tatooine slave woman's womb.

"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life."

Oh, yes, because that isn't ambiguous. Also, Palpatine would never lie to Anakin while manipulating him, right? That's why in the OT Vader totally has the ability to prevent death, just like Palpatine promised him

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Palpatine never said he created Anakin, not even remotely. There is not one line of dialog where he directly said he or his master used the force to make a baby magically grow in a Tatooine slave woman's womb.

"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life."

Which just happens to be the very thing that would tempt Anakin over the line, because boy does he think he needs that power!

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Well no matter how you try to justify it, I still have a hard time seeing any of Hayden's whiny, stalkerish Anakin in the Vader of the OT. Even when you factor in the amount of time or the corrupting influence of the dark side, they still just feel like two completely different characterizations to me.

I know we just have to accept that this is Vader's backstory now, but I don't think it'll ever feel truly believable to me.

Meh, he was much older by ROJ. A lifetime of bitterness and hatred changes most people a lot. I think it's realistic. Ever meet anyone IRL who has been angry about something for a very long time - I have. They aren't the same person you knew before.

There's a good example in the Trek franchise: Zefram Cochrane.

He's the exact same man in both First Contact (set in the year 2063) and "Metamorphosis (TOS)" (which takes place a little over 200 years later after he's spent about a century and a half in isolation with the noncorporeal and powerful Companion). After World War III he's an alcoholic genius trying to cobble together his first warp ship in the socioeconomic aftermath of a global nuclear conflict. At best, he's flaky and jaded about the world and his place in it.

After he breaks the warp barrier and ushers in a shining new era for humanity he changes and mellows, and by the time he disappears into deep space and the history books he's likely not the heavy drinker and troublesome personality he was during the late 21st century. He must have been reliable, centered and professional enough to participate in the launch of the Warp 5 engine project and become one of the founding and leading colonists in the Alpha Centauri sector. Then, when Kirk and his officers discover Cochrane on the Gamma Canaris planetoid about 150 years later he's matured and developed into a much different and quieter man than he was two centuries earlier.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Oh, yes, because that isn't ambiguous.

It isn't ambiguous at all. The line is exposition solely for the audiences benefit. The implication obvious.

Also, Palpatine would never lie to Anakin while manipulating him, right?

When did he ever lie? Really? Sure he wad deceitful and ambiguous with the truth. But he was never out-right dishonest, at least not directly to Anakin.

That's why in the OT Vader totally has the ability to prevent death, just like Palpatine promised him

How do you know he doesn't? The only person he cared about saving died before Palps had the chance to teach him the technique. He seemed pretty content running around the galaxy choking minions. He really didn't see a need to save anyone from death. And, he did save Luke, if even in the abstract.

In any case, this is a red herring and doesn't change the purpose of the balcony scene.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Also, Palpatine would never lie to Anakin while manipulating him, right?

When did he ever lie? Really? Sure he wad deceitful and ambiguous with the truth. But he was never out-right dishonest, at least not directly to Anakin.

Can you resolve this evident quandary?

It can't all be true that Plagueis taught Palpatine everything he knew, that Plagueis achieved the power to cheat death, and that Sidious needs Vader's help to discover that power.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Yup.

George Lucas wrote it.

/quandary

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Snap!

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Wait, are you saying George's dialogue and execution are sometimes inconsistent?

The nerve.

 

[DWF]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I certainly think he lied to Anakin, according to the novel of Ep. III he leid to Dooku as well just to get him on his side and when he didn't feel like he needed Dooku anymore he tood Anakin to kill Dooku.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

^Something he was also going to do to Vader in ROTJ.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Someone won the walk-on in Force for Change.

It wasn't me

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

There's a good example in the Trek franchise: Zefram Cochrane.

Yeah that's true, but I don't think the writers of FC were really concerned much with how he was portrayed on that TOS episode to begin with. They just wanted to write their own version of the character, unlike Lucas who was clearly trying to link this new Anakin with the OT Vader.

Plus Cochrane just isn't nearly as iconic or well known a character as Vader.

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Someone won the walk-on in Force for Change.

It wasn't me

Yeah people are suggesting the robotic handing holding the note is Luke's. Which would definitely be cool, but we've seen before that he likes to wear a glove over that hand so I'm not so sure.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Someone won the walk-on in Force for Change.

It wasn't me

Yeah, some guy named DC Barns...which sounds like a totally fake name to me.