Star Wars: Episode VII: The Nerd Rage Awakens
- Thread starter cooleddie74
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Or finding other uses for them, I.e probably fate worse than death.
I love that Palpatine was a master manipulator but I hate that it had to present the Jedi as fairly blind and stupid in order to accomplish it, as it stands in the films.
There is little to no action by the Jedi that would do anything to circumvent Palpatine, and that's frustrating. As blind as the Jedi are, I don't agree that he could foresee every possible end.
I'm sure the argument could be made that Luke and Leia surviving was unforeseen, but that was after all the stupid mistakes by the good guys.
I prefer the ROTS novel. It at least shows that the Jedi are conflicted about what to do, what the nature of the war is, and their efforts to find Sidious.
The novelization of RotS goes into interesting details about Obi-Wan being able to confidently face an army of battle droids alone, and fighting General Grievous with one lightsaber vs four mechanically driven ones. Rather I should say: interesting background.
Mace and Kenobi have a conversation (in flashback narration) before Kenobi confronts Grievous. Mace has Kenobi take greater stock in his own self-confidence by speaking of why Windu chose the fighting style of Vaapaad, which is a monstrously aggressive lightsaber style, and why Yoda's fighting style addresses his advanced age and small stature. Yet Kenobi has mastered the most basic lightsaber form, Soresu...a style so basic and defensive, it's almost passive. Kenobi confesses that he had never thought of his prowess with Soresu as a mastery. Windu asks: Who is the true master? One who has adopted the killing form that compensates for one's weakness? Or a master of the classic form?
Instilled with this new confidence, Obi-Wan goes to face the fiendish droid general. Again, this is taken from the novelization.... so your canon consideration may vary. I have no problems with that bit of narration.
It's often been said that a Jedi knight should have a bit of cockiness and swagger to his/her demeanor because one Jedi is basically worth any 100 soldiers untrained in the ways of the Force. Despite Grievous' mechanical advantages, he is only trained in the lightsaber forms as taught by Dooku.... he has no training in the ways of the Force. Obi-Wan has both. He pretty much surrenders himself to the will of the Force in every confrontation, and acts without undue thought. He goes on pure instinct and channeling of the Force. He becomes a vessel.
Just my humble take on Kenobi vs Grievous.
As for Yoda's being an acrobatic whirlwind of destruction, well..... To quote the NPC character, Flynn, from the video game "Battlefield: Bad Company 2" (when he takes an action that runs counter to his own beliefs) : "Hey, even the Buddha had to kick a little ass every now and then."
Again, another reason why I like the ROTS novel is because it describes the lightsaber combat and the underlying attitudes, so incredibly well.
Note: This post has been brought to you by Revenge of the Sith novelization by Matthew Stover. Available on Amazon
Second note: not really, for legal reasons.
I love that Palpatine was a master manipulator but I hate that it had to present the Jedi as fairly blind and stupid in order to accomplish it, as it stands in the films.
There is little to no action by the Jedi that would do anything to circumvent Palpatine, and that's frustrating. As blind as the Jedi are, I don't agree that he could foresee every possible end.
I'm sure the argument could be made that Luke and Leia surviving was unforeseen, but that was after all the stupid mistakes by the good guys.
I prefer the ROTS novel. It at least shows that the Jedi are conflicted about what to do, what the nature of the war is, and their efforts to find Sidious.
The novelization of RotS goes into interesting details about Obi-Wan being able to confidently face an army of battle droids alone, and fighting General Grievous with one lightsaber vs four mechanically driven ones. Rather I should say: interesting background.
Mace and Kenobi have a conversation (in flashback narration) before Kenobi confronts Grievous. Mace has Kenobi take greater stock in his own self-confidence by speaking of why Windu chose the fighting style of Vaapaad, which is a monstrously aggressive lightsaber style, and why Yoda's fighting style addresses his advanced age and small stature. Yet Kenobi has mastered the most basic lightsaber form, Soresu...a style so basic and defensive, it's almost passive. Kenobi confesses that he had never thought of his prowess with Soresu as a mastery. Windu asks: Who is the true master? One who has adopted the killing form that compensates for one's weakness? Or a master of the classic form?
Instilled with this new confidence, Obi-Wan goes to face the fiendish droid general. Again, this is taken from the novelization.... so your canon consideration may vary. I have no problems with that bit of narration.
It's often been said that a Jedi knight should have a bit of cockiness and swagger to his/her demeanor because one Jedi is basically worth any 100 soldiers untrained in the ways of the Force. Despite Grievous' mechanical advantages, he is only trained in the lightsaber forms as taught by Dooku.... he has no training in the ways of the Force. Obi-Wan has both. He pretty much surrenders himself to the will of the Force in every confrontation, and acts without undue thought. He goes on pure instinct and channeling of the Force. He becomes a vessel.
Just my humble take on Kenobi vs Grievous.
As for Yoda's being an acrobatic whirlwind of destruction, well..... To quote the NPC character, Flynn, from the video game "Battlefield: Bad Company 2" (when he takes an action that runs counter to his own beliefs) : "Hey, even the Buddha had to kick a little ass every now and then."
Again, another reason why I like the ROTS novel is because it describes the lightsaber combat and the underlying attitudes, so incredibly well.
Note: This post has been brought to you by Revenge of the Sith novelization by Matthew Stover. Available on Amazon
Second note: not really, for legal reasons.
Thanks for a good laugh. Yes, I enjoyed the novelization too. I like how authors of movie tie ins are given a bit of narrative freedom to explain things that there might not be time to go over (or even gloss over) in film. Even if it's not taken canonically, it still allows for insight into the whys and wherefores of certain events in a given movie.
That's why I love Alan Dean Foster's novelizations of the recent Trek films.
So I am in the lounge at Abu Dhabi Airport, waiting for my flight to Chicago, and on every monitor they are running the trailer and clip of Harrison Ford at the Panel discussion. Guess they do have NerdGasms here, also. Very cool and not something I expected!.
Abu Dhabi isn't quite there yet, but last I heard, expats outnumbered natives in neighboring Dubai.....
I wonder why they didn't just crush the droids (especially Grievious) using the Force.The novelization of RotS goes into interesting details about Obi-Wan being able to confidently face an army of battle droids alone, and fighting General Grievous with one lightsaber vs four mechanically driven ones. Rather I should say: interesting background.
Mace and Kenobi have a conversation (in flashback narration) before Kenobi confronts Grievous. Mace has Kenobi take greater stock in his own self-confidence by speaking of why Windu chose the fighting style of Vaapaad, which is a monstrously aggressive lightsaber style, and why Yoda's fighting style addresses his advanced age and small stature. Yet Kenobi has mastered the most basic lightsaber form, Soresu...a style so basic and defensive, it's almost passive. Kenobi confesses that he had never thought of his prowess with Soresu as a mastery. Windu asks: Who is the true master? One who has adopted the killing form that compensates for one's weakness? Or a master of the classic form?
Instilled with this new confidence, Obi-Wan goes to face the fiendish droid general. Again, this is taken from the novelization.... so your canon consideration may vary. I have no problems with that bit of narration.
It's often been said that a Jedi knight should have a bit of cockiness and swagger to his/her demeanor because one Jedi is basically worth any 100 soldiers untrained in the ways of the Force. Despite Grievous' mechanical advantages, he is only trained in the lightsaber forms as taught by Dooku.... he has no training in the ways of the Force. Obi-Wan has both. He pretty much surrenders himself to the will of the Force in every confrontation, and acts without undue thought. He goes on pure instinct and channeling of the Force. He becomes a vessel.
Just my humble take on Kenobi vs Grievous.
As for Yoda's being an acrobatic whirlwind of destruction, well..... To quote the NPC character, Flynn, from the video game "Battlefield: Bad Company 2" (when he takes an action that runs counter to his own beliefs) : "Hey, even the Buddha had to kick a little ass every now and then."
But at one point there's only Obi Wan and Grievious, and he resorts to shooting him with a Blaster. Why couldn't he Force choke his organs?
Because George Lucas is an IDIOT
Or you could try:
Because Force choking/crushing of organs is a Dark Side power.
Obi-Wan had no other weapons at his disposal. His lightsaber was dropped (recovered by Commander Cody), the electrostaff was useless. Only Grievous' blaster remained. Rather than use a direct Dark Side power, Obi-Wan simply called the blaster to his hand and used it as a last resort. After using the blaster, he disposed of it, stating: "So uncivilized." Sounds like that was pretty much in character with Obi-Wan to me.
And Obi-Wan was frequently distracted by both the high-speed chase through the lower levels of Utapau as well as his own physical pain when Grievous seized him and began squashing and throwing him around like a rag doll. Even if Obi-Wan had wanted to focus his Force powers to implode or crush the General's bodily organs he probably couldn't in the heat of battle and may not have been strong nor experienced enough with the Force to do so. Thus: he uses a droid blaster to shoot at his internal organs and kill him.
Also, Garak's theory makes just as much sense.
Also, Garak's theory makes just as much sense.
I'm sure someone has an answer to this:
I was also surprised by Windu "taking down" Palpatine initially. My first reaction was, "Oh, shit! Mace Windu beat him!" But moments later, I said, "No, it's a ruse."
But sometimes, I wonder if it isn't a combination of both.
Because the ONE, LINGERING thing about the whole thing that still kinda bugs me is, why would Palpatine allow himself to be disfigured? Does he really need to roast his face off completely? It was rather extreme.
IMO, what people are overlooking about Palpatine versus Windu is that Palpatine was, as everyone seems to acknowledge, a master manipulator. The implications of that though are being missed, namely which are that Darth Sidious would always be trying to make himself seem stronger than he actually is.
See, Palpatine is a lying sack of shit. He's got swagger, and he'll keep acting like he's the most powerful being in the galaxy, right up until he's being thrown down the DSII reactor shaft, at which point he'll be hollering like a bitch. These smiles that people are reading on his face are just among his lies. You can't trust any information coming from Palpatine, whether it's in the form of statements, body language, or facial expressions.
Palpatine's power flows from the dark side. When Anakin turns, Palpatine's power increases. Ergo, if Anakin hadn't turned, both Anakin and Mace would have had excellent chances of defeating Palpatine and both coming out unscathed; no, seriously, that would have been it for Palpatine.
How much power Palpatine actually had therefore depended upon what Anakin chose to do. Palpatine probably had a vision about his duel with Windu and saw that Anakin's turning would work in his favor. But later on in ROTJ, Palpatine would have visions that proved inaccurate.
Palpatine's claim of having unlimited power is again total bullshit. His power was not unlimited. But he was having a dark-side-gasm from having turned the most powerful Jedi into his apprentice. The obvious fact that Palpatine's power is not unlimited should be the clue that any information coming from him about the unassailability of his position is suspect. Remember, he doesn't want Anakin to sense his weakness, so that is really who he is performing for. Plus, anything to create doubt in Windu's mind also works to his favor. Therefore, any body language implying that Palpatine was really just playing possum is all just part of the act. Since it worked out the way he'd hoped and probably even foreseen it would, he gets to gloat, in his subtly insidious way.
Having seen the future probably gave Palpatine confidence that he wasn't in danger, because in having lost to Windu there was still one more thing coming, namely Anakin turning. But if that had gone the other way, if Anakin hadn't turned, then he would have regretted not beating Windu, and probably been just as shocked and surprised—and ultimately powerless—as he was going down the DSII reactor shaft.
Anyway, that's my take on that.
See, Palpatine is a lying sack of shit. He's got swagger, and he'll keep acting like he's the most powerful being in the galaxy, right up until he's being thrown down the DSII reactor shaft, at which point he'll be hollering like a bitch. These smiles that people are reading on his face are just among his lies. You can't trust any information coming from Palpatine, whether it's in the form of statements, body language, or facial expressions.
Palpatine's power flows from the dark side. When Anakin turns, Palpatine's power increases. Ergo, if Anakin hadn't turned, both Anakin and Mace would have had excellent chances of defeating Palpatine and both coming out unscathed; no, seriously, that would have been it for Palpatine.
How much power Palpatine actually had therefore depended upon what Anakin chose to do. Palpatine probably had a vision about his duel with Windu and saw that Anakin's turning would work in his favor. But later on in ROTJ, Palpatine would have visions that proved inaccurate.
Palpatine's claim of having unlimited power is again total bullshit. His power was not unlimited. But he was having a dark-side-gasm from having turned the most powerful Jedi into his apprentice. The obvious fact that Palpatine's power is not unlimited should be the clue that any information coming from him about the unassailability of his position is suspect. Remember, he doesn't want Anakin to sense his weakness, so that is really who he is performing for. Plus, anything to create doubt in Windu's mind also works to his favor. Therefore, any body language implying that Palpatine was really just playing possum is all just part of the act. Since it worked out the way he'd hoped and probably even foreseen it would, he gets to gloat, in his subtly insidious way.
Having seen the future probably gave Palpatine confidence that he wasn't in danger, because in having lost to Windu there was still one more thing coming, namely Anakin turning. But if that had gone the other way, if Anakin hadn't turned, then he would have regretted not beating Windu, and probably been just as shocked and surprised—and ultimately powerless—as he was going down the DSII reactor shaft.
Anyway, that's my take on that.
That's a really good take on it.
I'm not familiar enough with SW-lit or the EU to know if this has been addressed. My own personal canon explanation is as follows. Palpatine was very old, due to longevity provided by the Dark Side (perhaps even the student of Darth Plagueis, whose tale he conveyed to Anakin at the opera?...). As such, that was his naturally appearance. After all, he learned to save people from death -- namely himself.
Anyway, he was playing the "long con" with the Republic in order take over, and thus used the power of the Dark Side to generated the illusion of youth. When Windu was "attacking" him, he let it go -- which had the added advantage of, as you say, looking quite extreme and further pulling Anakin to his aid.
The "horrible disfigurement" line he gave to the Senate was so they, too, would rally around him.
Again, my opinion, but it fits with data given in ROTS (and also the OT). And from a quick google search, it seems to match with some of the EU stories.
I like that take and was always a question of mine regarding Mace vs. Palpatine by CoporalCaptain.
This is my opinion and I know that fans will debate endlessly, but here it is.
Windu defeated Palpatine straight up in battle. However, Palpatine was attempting to sucker him in and get him to drop his guard, as well as betting on Anakin turning or at least protecting him (that whole "friendship" thing).
The limits of the Dark Side is that they expect betrayal and back stabbing. So, if Anakin had stayed with the Jedi, or if a Jedi other than Windu (perhaps Obi-Wan) had fought, then I think the scenario plays out much differently.
This is my opinion and I know that fans will debate endlessly, but here it is.
Windu defeated Palpatine straight up in battle. However, Palpatine was attempting to sucker him in and get him to drop his guard, as well as betting on Anakin turning or at least protecting him (that whole "friendship" thing).
The limits of the Dark Side is that they expect betrayal and back stabbing. So, if Anakin had stayed with the Jedi, or if a Jedi other than Windu (perhaps Obi-Wan) had fought, then I think the scenario plays out much differently.
If you take the novel for good narrative value, Palpatine examines his face in a mirror (or reflective surface) and comments that he'll miss the face of Palpatine, but it had served its purpose.... which almost suggests to me that a purely evil force had inhabited or possessed the body of Palpatine.
But, ignoring that supposition for a moment, it is a suggestion that using the full power of the Dark Side takes a tremendous toll on the physical body.
Using the Dark Side, one does not "surrender" his/herself to the flow or will of the Force (the way a Jedi does when using the Light Side). Dark Siders sacrifice a part of their living essence to channel such destructive energy. When done in small uses, the sacrifice seems negligible, at least physically. When used with the concentration that Palpatine marshalled against Windu, the sacrifice was considerably larger, and took its toll on the body.
The disfigurement also served Palpatine's purposes when he addressed the senate. "The recent attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed. But I assure you, my resolve has never been stronger!"
Some might say that we were seeing the real face of Palpatine when he withered himself.
Just my opinions.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xhFUhRLBME[/yt]
^
That's always been my take on the scene. I don't buy the fan theory that Darth Sidious always looked like that and used the powers of the Dark Side to appear normal as Senator and later Chancellor Palpatine. The deflected Sith lightning bounced back on and damaged his facial features but he decided to play the public sympathy card and use his new appearance in his campaign against the Jedi Order and their "rebellion."
That's always been my take on the scene. I don't buy the fan theory that Darth Sidious always looked like that and used the powers of the Dark Side to appear normal as Senator and later Chancellor Palpatine. The deflected Sith lightning bounced back on and damaged his facial features but he decided to play the public sympathy card and use his new appearance in his campaign against the Jedi Order and their "rebellion."
