Star Wars Clone Wars SPOILERS from Lucas/Stewart interview

[Set Harth]

What if they people had simply said to the Jedi "STFU, we like it this way".

"We just found out that our leader is a darksider who controls both sides of the war, having engineered it for his own purposes. Which pales in comparison with what you arrogant Jedi have done -- dared to say anything bad about fearless leader. STFU -- we like it this way."

Then what? Then we can say with some accuracy that these really aren't the people we should be listening to when it comes to questions of relative morality.

I didn't know I was a character in Clone Wars or Star Wars.

You don't have to be a character in Star Wars to share the fallacious viewpoints of some of its characters.

 

[SeerSGB]

What if they people had simply said to the Jedi "STFU, we like it this way".

"We just found out that our leader is a darksider who controls both sides of the war, having engineered it for his own purposes. Which pales in comparison with what you arrogant Jedi have done -- dared to say anything bad about fearless leader. STFU -- we like it this way."

Then what? Then we can say with some accuracy that these really aren't the people we should be listening to when it comes to questions of relative morality.

I didn't know I was a character in Clone Wars or Star Wars.

You don't have to be a character in Star Wars to share the fallacious viewpoints of some of its characters.

So the will of the people...up to the point that the Jedi don't agree with it? Not saying the Jedi had to support the Empire, but it's interesting that it's just out and out assumed that people would be happy with the Jedi had they managed to arrest/execute Palpatine.

AS for the bolded part: Still doesn't make ME and my alleged views the topic.

 

[Set Harth]

Again, my personal beliefs are not the topic of THIS conversation no matter what you may think they are.

Your personal beliefs became a part of this conversation from the moment you first interjected them into it... unless you intend to claim that they are actually the personal beliefs of another, unnamed, person which you are helpfully reporting.

AS for the bolded part: Still doesn't make ME and my alleged views the topic.

Your "alleged views" are a matter of public record "up-thread". Allegedly, that is.

 

[SeerSGB]

Again, my personal beliefs are not the topic of THIS conversation no matter what you may think they are.

Your personal beliefs became a part of this conversation from the moment you first interjected them into it... unless you intend to claim that they are actually the personal beliefs of another, unnamed, person which you are helpfully reporting.

This is the last time I'm going to address this: You want to talk about my politics, my beliefs, there's a sub-forum and PM you can take it to. But I will not debate my personal views on this thread and in this forum.

You want to debate politics in the SW-verse fine. And I'll use my interpretation and my opinion to do so. But I will not, as I've said repeatedly, debate MY politics and beliefs directly here.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Well it works well enough for them. Rather than avail themselves of the system, they decided to be judge and jury. As I said up thread, they'd been in shit if Palpatine hadn't been a Sith. Again, I blame it on weak writing in that part of the movie.

And what if he had walked? What if they people had simply said to the Jedi "STFU, we like it this way". Then what? Would that have the authority to still take him out just cause he's a different religion that them? You have to question is they was really worried about him gaming the system or the fact that their authority might be overruled, that the system might legitimately agree with him.

The reason why the Jedi confronted him was to endure he abdicated his power and, if he didn't willingly, arrest him. It was clearly implied in the film that this was part of the Jedi "constitutional" mandate.

Whether the people wanted to keep it that way afterwords was irrelevant and would be something to vote on later. The Jedi had to follow their immediate legal obligation.

And why couldn't they arrest him as being a Sith? It isn't like some kind of racial profiling thing seeing as how there is an extreme limited number of them. If he was a Sith, there were pretty good odds (like 50% or better) that he was the ring leader of the separatists; that makes him a traitor. Last time I checked, high treason was a pretty severe capital crime in pretty much any society.

Non the less, right or wrong, once he slaughtered three of his captors and Force Lightninged the fourth, all bets were off.

 

[SeerSGB]

Well it works well enough for them. Rather than avail themselves of the system, they decided to be judge and jury. As I said up thread, they'd been in shit if Palpatine hadn't been a Sith. Again, I blame it on weak writing in that part of the movie.

And what if he had walked? What if they people had simply said to the Jedi "STFU, we like it this way". Then what? Would that have the authority to still take him out just cause he's a different religion that them? You have to question is they was really worried about him gaming the system or the fact that their authority might be overruled, that the system might legitimately agree with him.

The reason why the Jedi confronted him was to endure he abdicated his power and, if he didn't willingly, arrest him. It was clearly implied in the film that this was part of the Jedi "constitutional" mandate.

Whether the people wanted to keep it that way afterwords was irrelevant and would be something to vote on later. The Jedi had to follow their immediate legal obligation.

And why couldn't they arrest him as being a Sith? It isn't like some kind of racial profiling thing seeing as how there is an extreme limited number of them. If he was a Sith, there were pretty good odds (like 50% or better) that he was the ring leader of the separatists; that makes him a traitor. Last time I checked, high treason was a pretty severe capital crime in pretty much any society.

Non the less, right or wrong, once he slaughtered three of his captors and Force Lightninged the fourth, all bets were off.

Arresting him just cause he's SITH is a fairly flimsy premise, isn't it? It would be profiling, cause it assumes that just cause he practices the Sith faith that he's automatically up to no good. Lets say some Emo teen decides to be "Sith" is that enough reason to arrest him or kick his ass? And if there's a mandate against a faith (regardless of the faith) that gets back into the Republic not being the sunshine and lollipops the OT would have us believe.

And that's were the writing fails apart: He's Sith, we must take him out. Rather than simply having the big reveal be when the Jedi confront him, and not just Anakin running back to Mace ratting him out. Make it about a chancellor that refuses to step down and when they push the issue out comes the Sith reveal.

 

[David cgc]

They didn't particularly care that he was a Sith practitioner, they cared that he was specifically "the Sith Lord," a more or less conjectural criminal whom the Jedi had been attempting to apprehend for over twenty years. Saying that's profiling is like saying that that Gotham Police were profiling if they ever referred to the Joker as "the Clown," as if they were going to just arrest anyone in white face-paint off the street, and not look specifically for the mass-murdering clown.

 

[Admiral_Young]

@Gallifreyan Sith you talk about the procedural system the Jedi were to follow...but what exactly was it? The chaos of the clone wars and Palpatine's manipulation of the corrupt senate and abusive of his office...not to mention they were in a state of war, and the Jedi are considered peace keepers what were they supposed to do otherwise? Stand back and allow the Senate to do nothing and flounder about while trying to nominate a successor to Palpatine? I assume that the Jedi would have temporarily taken control of the Senate until Palpatine was dealt with in a proper manner and the Senate called emergency elections or some such. The Sith would not have done that. Not sure if I'm making my thoughts clear as I'm typing in a rush.

 

[SeerSGB]

They didn't particularly care that he was a Sith practitioner, they cared that he was specifically "the Sith Lord," a more or less conjectural criminal whom the Jedi had been attempting to apprehend for over twenty years. Saying that's profiling is like saying that that Gotham Police were profiling if they ever referred to the Joker as "the Clown," as if they were going to just arrest anyone in white face-paint off the street, and not look specifically for the mass-murdering clown.

Just cause he has the title Sith Lord, that means automatically he isn't entitled to full due process? So he's assumed guilty just cause in the past the Sith did some fucked up shit? Flip that around: how is that any better than the Sith position against the Jedi.

And again: If you boil it down, you're talking a religious war between the two. And it does become profiling cause you're targeting a specific person cause of their religion. "Sith Lord" is all they needed to hear, couple it with their general dislike of Palpatine's politics and the Jedi weren't looking beyond "gotcha!". Him being accused of being Sith was enough for them to justify their actions.

@Gallifreyan Sith you talk about the procedural system the Jedi were to follow...but what exactly was it? The chaos of the clone wars and Palpatine's manipulation of the corrupt senate and abusive of his office...not to mention they were in a state of war, and the Jedi are considered peace keepers what were they supposed to do otherwise? Stand back and allow the Senate to do nothing and flounder about while trying to nominate a successor to Palpatine? I assume that the Jedi would have temporarily taken control of the Senate until Palpatine was dealt with in a proper manner and the Senate called emergency elections or some such. The Sith would not have done that. Not sure if I'm making my thoughts clear as I'm typing in a rush.

That's like saying a cop can just go out and shoot a crack dealer cause the Judge is on the take. And by what right should the Jedi seize the senate? They're not elected by the people.

As I keep saying: Weak writing.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yep no doubt about it that the problem with that was weak writing and bringing basic politics into a science fiction fantasy story that doesn't really have a basis for it. The politics has always felt out of place but interesting to me.

I wasn't arguing that they had a right to take over the senate but they were reacting to a critical situation that probably didn't have galactic precedence and I would argue due to the "clouding of the Force by the Dark Side" their judgment was really messed up. They saw a situation that threatened to spiral out of control and felt this was the only way they could deal with it. It's no better than Palps shutting down the Senate at the start of "A New Hope" either.Yoda stated himself that the Dark Side was clouding everything including them.

 

[David cgc]

Just cause he has the title Sith Lord, that means automatically he isn't entitled to full due process? So he's assumed guilty just cause in the past the Sith did some fucked up shit? Flip that around: how is that any better than the Sith position against the Jedi.

Anakin Skywalker: He won't give up his power. I've just learned a terrible truth. I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.
Mace Windu: A Sith Lord?!
Anakin Skywalker: Yes. The one we've been looking for.

Let's recall. The Sith Lord they've been looking for orchestrated the invasion of a Republic planet, fomented a civil war, was directly responsible for the murder of Qui-Gon Jinn and the corruption of Dooku, and personally led a hostile power in making war against the Republic. So, that's treason, espionage, murder, sedition... oh, and when he was placed under arrest by duly authorized representatives of the law, he butchered three of them and fought the fourth to a standstill, and the Jedi still attempted to take him alive in order to be tried in a court of law. Windu only said that Palpatine was too dangerous to capture while Palpatine was shooting lightning at him at that moment.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yes thank you. This is more put than what I attempted...my point that I was struggling to get around to is that the Jedi were duly appointed representatives of the law and the Sith by their very nature are criminals. The Jedi were arresting a criminal when they confronted Sidious. They were also attempting to attempt to maintain the peace when temporarily occupying the Senate. The Sith would have attempted (and basically did) take over and control the Senate. It's not all black and white but I think it's quite clear that the Sith have had sinister motivations and would be considered evil. Are the Jedi the white knights they claim to be? Perhaps not and that was one of the morale issues that Yoda struggled with during this entire ordeal.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Not according to Lucas.

I think he has said that Palpatine's intentions are pure: to rid the Republic of corruption, but his methods were wrong such as fomenting civil war, turning the Republic into a totalitarian state and getting rid of those who would oppose him.

 

[SeerSGB]

Just cause he has the title Sith Lord, that means automatically he isn't entitled to full due process? So he's assumed guilty just cause in the past the Sith did some fucked up shit? Flip that around: how is that any better than the Sith position against the Jedi.

Anakin Skywalker: He won't give up his power. I've just learned a terrible truth. I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.
Mace Windu: A Sith Lord?!
Anakin Skywalker: Yes. The one we've been looking for.

Let's recall. The Sith Lord they've been looking for orchestrated the invasion of a Republic planet, fomented a civil war, was directly responsible for the murder of Qui-Gon Jinn and the corruption of Dooku, and personally led a hostile power in making war against the Republic. So, that's treason, espionage, murder, sedition... oh, and when he was placed under arrest by duly authorized representatives of the law, he butchered three of them and fought the fourth to a standstill, and the Jedi still attempted to take him alive in order to be tried in a court of law. Windu only said that Palpatine was too dangerous to capture while Palpatine was shooting lightning at him at that moment.

Again they're operating from the claim of one Jedi (who previously they behaved as if they didn't trust). At the point they went to take him on, they only had Anakin's word that he was a Sith Lord. They were chomping at the bit to get Palpatine out and they took the first opening they saw. Basically arrest him and make sure it all works out in the wash.

It goes back to the basic difference in the trilogies: OT, Palpatine was evil cause he was an evil fucker. That was all there was too him. The prequels: He was evil cause he was a Sith...but it's the being a corrupt politician that makes him really sleazy and evil.

Not according to Lucas.

I think he has said that Palpatine's intentions are pure: to rid the Republic of corruption, but his methods were wrong such as fomenting civil war, turning the Republic into a totalitarian state and getting rid of those who would oppose him.

I think the Civil War would have come about whether the Sith were pushing the buttons or not. Palpatine might have sped up the process, but all he really did was toss gasoline on a fire that was already smoldering. The Republic and the Jedi needed to fall in order to "clean out the rot". Palpatine brought that about probably sooner than it would have happen naturally, but it was going to happen.

 

[Set Harth]

But I will not, as I've said repeatedly, debate MY politics and beliefs directly here.

And this continues to be nonsense. Your beliefs are reflected in your posts --
unless your posts do not actually reflect your beliefs and are in fact some kind of play-acting.

OT, Palpatine was evil cause he was an evil fucker.

Who used the dark side of the Force. We have a name for that.

The prequels: He was evil cause he was a Sith...

Who happened to also be an "evil fucker", and was -- wait for it -- the same guy as in the OT. In other words there was no difference at all when it comes to Palpatine.

 

[Admiral_Young]

This thread has gone way off topic...but it's been a good debate. I just don't really see how anyone can justify Palpatine's actions as being benign, as far as Lucas's comments go...how is getting rid of the corruption of the Republic and turning it into a dictatorship having noble intentions? Palpatine was power hungry and obviously became interested in the Dark Side to use it's power for his own means which was to dominate and conquer the Republic and impose his own will and doctrine over it. Last time I checked those were the motivations of a despot. Were the Jedi angels? No, not completely, but to paint them as "evil"as the Sith or to claim that they have the same traits as the Sith is pushing imo. The Jedi are clearly meant to be forces of good and the Sith bad.

 

[Mr Light]

The Timothy Zahn novel "Outbound Flight" said that Palpatine foresaw the Vong War and decided to turn the Republic into an Empire capable of withstanding the invasion. Too bad that rebel scum messed up his plans

 

[DarthPipes]

The Timothy Zahn novel "Outbound Flight" said that Palpatine foresaw the Vong War and decided to turn the Republic into an Empire capable of withstanding the invasion. Too bad that rebel scum messed up his plans

Another reason I choose to ignore most of the EU.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

Is it really necessary to bring a Christian-bashing film into this discussion?

 

[Dream]

Where is my Luke, Leia and Han cartoon? Someone needs to do that already!