Star Wars Clone Wars SPOILERS from Lucas/Stewart interview

[SeerSGB]

I understand why the Jedi used the clone army to fight the war but that doesn't make it right. I hope the Clone Wars series features some episodes where the Jedi begin to question the ethics of using a clone army. We've seen some hints on this among the clones so it seems like it's a potentially emerging storyline.

Dooku was the leader of the Seperatist movement. Grievious was the leader on the ground. He clearly thought he was a lot more powerful judging by that look of surprise when Palpatine orders Anakin to kill him.

Define innocent? Remember, the Jedi led a slave army (the clones) and had no problem spending their lives on the battlefield. They didn't even really question it to much, they just accepted the GAR and accepted that the only way was war and step right into the leadership roles on the frontline. Then there is the whole taking infants to be trained if they're born force sensitive; the prequels tend to imply that this is pretty much a given if your kid is born force sensitive. What about the parents that don't want their kid trained?

We're never told exactly how the process goes. I don't think they take the children without the parents permission though. Anakin was given a choice as to whether he wanted to go with Qui-Gon.

Anakin was older than the average-- to the point they wouldn't have allowed him to be trained (chosen one or not) if Qui-Gon hadn't basically given the council the middle figure and said he was doing it anyway.

Define innocent?

The Jedi weren't the only ones killed. You may be forgetting an entire planet. And then there's the whole killing children thing. Ah, who am I kidding, those evil little bastards were probably guilty of all kinds of things. Multiple counts of toy theft and soiled diapers, at any rate.

And before we get into "The EU says...", I'm talking on screen, what the average movie goer that isn't hardcore into Star Wars is seeing, not the fans.

If you think the all-important "average moviegoer" ( a nebulous though significant figure whose opinion somehow always outweighs that of anyone who really gives a shit ) doesn't see the Sith or the Empire as comparably evil, you might be projecting just a teensy tiny bit. Perhaps.

The OT was black and white: the Empire is cold blooded evil. There's no question about it.

The Prequel sets up a situation where we're more or less, as a viewer, picking between the lesser of two evils. We're not given any reason to side with the Republic (which still allows slave trade, uses a slave army, appears to allow a relgious order to take infants, etc) over the Sep other than "It's the Republic". For all we know, the Seps might have had, Palpatine's machinations aside, a legit reason for succeeding from the Republic that he twisted to his own agenda.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I guess choosing TheGallifreyanSith as ones internet handle leaves one a tiny bit biased against the Jedi.

 

[SeerSGB]

I guess choosing TheGallifreyanSith as ones internet handle leaves one a tiny bit biased against the Jedi.

Have been since Return of the Jedi and Obi-Wan's whole "From a certain point of view..." BS line.

Killing the younglings aside (I think Lucas went over the top with that one, wasn't needed and didn't seem "Right" for Anakin, seemed out of character for him at the point in the story) I was smiling through the whole march on the Temple.

 

[Mr Light]

Dooku was the political leader, the positive face that actually convinced people to join. Grievous was the boogeyman and leader of the actual military, the one that frightened people from leaving.

Personally I like all three characters. Maul was a badass attack dog, Dooku was an interesting ambiguous character, Grevious was just pure fun. Also they represent the three sides of Anakin/Vader; the vicious dark side, the noble Jedi warrior, and the cyborg monstrosity.

 

[David cgc]

We're not given any reason to side with the Republic (which still allows slave trade...

Tatooine wasn't a Republic world. By that definition, every country on Earth "allows" slavery, as well.

 

[SeerSGB]

We're not given any reason to side with the Republic (which still allows slave trade...

Tatooine wasn't a Republic world. By that definition, every country on Earth "allows" slavery, as well.

Actually I do think it's a global crime that the slave trade is allowed to exist and that the industrialized nations of the world have a responsibility to stomp it out...but that is a topic for another forum and thread.

The fact that neither the Jedi or the Republic have stepped in to smack it down says something about both groups. And the fact they willingly use a slave army is even more damning. Not saying the Sith are any better, but it's dishonest to paint a pristine picture of the Republic or the Jedi and a totally black one of the Seps and Sith.

 

[Roshi]

Have they ever explained who Master Sifo-Dyas was? What his motives were? Why did he order the clone army in the first place. Even though it's not difficult to connect the dots (Palps was at the origin of the command) I feel that's one huge plot hole that needs to be clarified...

 

[AviTrek]

Have they ever explained who Master Sifo-Dyas was? What his motives were? Why did he order the clone army in the first place. Even though it's not difficult to connect the dots (Palps was at the origin of the command) I feel that's one huge plot hole that needs to be clarified...

Umm...I think it was fairly obvious. Either he was an alias for Palpatine, or another Sith working for Palpatine. The point of the Clone Army was to give Palpatine an army to overthrow the Republic and kill the Jedis. That the army was used by the Jedi first before turning against them just furthered the deception.

 

[SeerSGB]

Have they ever explained who Master Sifo-Dyas was? What his motives were? Why did he order the clone army in the first place. Even though it's not difficult to connect the dots (Palps was at the origin of the command) I feel that's one huge plot hole that needs to be clarified...

On screen: no, we're never given a clue. And it could have been Dooku or Palpatine either one impersonating a real Jedi. Which would, you know, make some level of sense.

In the EU however...well, here we go:

Sifo-Dyas was once a good friend of fellow Jedi Master Dooku, and had the gift of precognition. Sometime before 32 BBY, he foresaw that the Galactic Republic would face a devastating war. To defend the Republic, he secretly commissioned a clone army from the cloners of the planet Kamino. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends.

So another of the "he foresaw the future" explanations in Star Wars. Sort of makes the whole "Always in motion in the future" thing meaningless. Or you'd think they'd learn "Hmmm....I had a vision of XYZ, but every time one of us Jedi try to stop a vision from happening we cause it to happen...maybe we should just not do anything see how things play out?"

 

[Set Harth]

(I think Lucas went over the top with that one, wasn't needed and didn't seem "Right" for Anakin, seemed out of character for him at the point in the story)

Right. It wasn't needed... because it gets in the way of your Karen Traviss "evil Jedi" revisionism. It's the inconvenient truth. How surprising that you don't approve.

The OT was black and white: the Empire is cold blooded evil. There's no question about it.The Prequel sets up a situation where we're more or less, as a viewer, picking between the lesser of two evils.

Same continuity, same Palpatine.

The fact that neither the Jedi or the Republic have stepped in to smack it down says something about both groups.

Yeah, that they don't think they're the rulers of the universe. Imagine that.

So another of the "he foresaw the future" explanations in Star Wars. Sort of makes the whole "Always in motion in the future" thing meaningless.

Not at all, since "always in motion is the future" is simply a true observation about possible futures. By the above logic Luke's vision of the future in TESB also makes the line meaningless. Except it doesn't:

Or you'd think they'd learn "Hmmm....I had a vision of XYZ, but every time one of us Jedi try to stop a vision from happening we cause it to happen...maybe we should just not do anything see how things play out?"

Funny, that's pretty much exactly what Yoda said in response.

 

[SeerSGB]

The fact that neither the Jedi or the Republic have stepped in to smack it down says something about both groups.

Yeah, that they don't think they're the rulers of the universe. Imagine that.

Or they're Core-Centric, elitest [sic] a-holes that think "Freedom and justice" only extend so far. Rather than deal with the problems underlying a lot of the Republic's rot, they've adopted a "not in my backyard, so I don't care" approach.

As I said, it's dishonest to paint them as clean in this.

 

[Set Harth]

Or they're Core-Centric, elitest [sic] a-holes that think "Freedom and justice" only extend so far.

Or they only have jurisdiction in the Republic and don't think they have the right to regulate the behavior of the entire universe. How's the invasion of Naboo for "freedom and justice"?

As I said, it's dishonest to paint them as clean in this.

You can say it all you want, that doesn't make it true. That they don't think they have the right to control the entire galaxy is a point in their favor. Palpatine, of course, does intend to control the entire galaxy... but you don't seem to have a problem with totalitarian regimes.

 

[SeerSGB]

Or they're Core-Centric, elitest [sic] a-holes that think "Freedom and justice" only extend so far.

Or they only have jurisdiction in the Republic and don't think they have the right to regulate the behavior of the entire universe. How's the invasion of Naboo for "freedom and justice"?

As I said, it's dishonest to paint them as clean in this.

You can say it all you want, that doesn't make it true. That they don't think they have the right to control the entire galaxy is a point in their favor. Palpatine, of course, does intend to control the entire galaxy... but you don't seem to have a problem with totalitarian regimes.

Oh please, like the Republic's a peace loving democracy? Only when it suits their ends or needs. If you not core-world, you're just SOL. They had lost touch with the larger galaxy and the problems there that was eating away at the core govt. Again, the Seps have blood on their hands too, but the Republic is (in my opinion) worse than the Seps cause they turned a blind eye to what was happening, they were negligent.

And since when do the Jedi worry about jurisdictional restraint. Good lord, they out and out dismissed the ideal of arresting and trying Palpatine merely on the word of Anakin-- who up to that point they acted as if they didn't trust. So they trust Anakin when it was convenient for the Council to remove an Chancellor they don't agree with by force without due process?

And my personal political beliefs are a topic for another thread and another subforum, not here.

 

[Set Harth]

If you not core-world, you're just SOL.

That's not supported by the films. You're just making it up. In fact, the films never use the term "core world" at all. Unless by "core world" you just mean "Republic"... which is just more of the same "the Jedi have jurisdiction over the entire universe" fallacy.

Again, the Seps have blood on their hands too, but the Republic is (in my opinion) worse than the Seps cause they turned a blind eye to what was happening, they were negligent.

They're "worse" because they believe in limits to their authority. But somehow this has changed from an assertion that equates the Jedi with the Sith to a Republic/Separatist debate. Curious.

And since when do the Jedi worry about jurisdictional restraint.

Since they neglected to act as if they were the rulers of the entire galaxy.

And my personal political beliefs are a topic for another thread and another subforum, not here.

Strangely, they've manifested themselves here.

 

[SeerSGB]

If you not core-world, you're just SOL.

That's not supported by the films. You're just making it up. In fact, the films never use the term "core world" at all. Unless by "core world" you just mean "Republic"... which is just more of the same "the Jedi have jurisdiction over the entire universe" fallacy.

Again, the Seps have blood on their hands too, but the Republic is (in my opinion) worse than the Seps cause they turned a blind eye to what was happening, they were negligent.

They're "worse" because they believe in limits to their authority. But somehow this has changed from an assertion that equates the Jedi with the Sith to a Republic/Separatist debate. Curious.

They're worse cause the see a wrong and do nothing to stop it. Indeed, they avail themselves of that evil when it suited their needs: the clone army.

And my personal political beliefs are a topic for another thread and another subforum, not here.

Strangely, they've manifested themselves here.

Again, my personal beliefs are not the topic of THIS conversation no matter what you may think they are.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Forgive me for interrupting here...but I had thought that Mace was the one who wanted to kill Palpatine because he deemed him too dangerous to put on trial based on the fact that he would most likely attempt to manipulate the court and get off scott free. Anakin opposed that decision saying that it wasn't the Jedi way. The Jedi had originally come to confront Palpatine and arrest him by then he went ape shit on them and killed them all except Mace so that he could manipulate the situation with Anakin further. If that's not evil then what the fuck is? One could argue that Mace was caught up in the heat of the moment overwhelmed even by the influence of the dark side which clouded even his judgment and ignored Anakin who was speaking widsom and then all shit broke lose and we know what happened.

 

[SeerSGB]

Forgive me for interrupting here...but I had thought that Mace was the one who wanted to kill Palpatine because he deemed him too dangerous to put on trial based on the fact that he would most likely attempt to manipulate the court and get off scott free. Anakin opposed that decision saying that it wasn't the Jedi way. The Jedi had originally come to confront Palpatine and arrest him by then he went ape shit on them and killed them all except Mace so that he could manipulate the situation with Anakin further. If that's not evil then what the fuck is? One could argue that Mace was caught up in the heat of the moment overwhelmed even by the influence of the dark side which clouded even his judgment and ignored Anakin who was speaking widsom and then all shit broke lose and we know what happened.

Mace was the head of the Council and the Council just rolled with it. They'd been in the shit had they been wrong. (though I chalk this up to weak writing on that part). Mace was also talking about taking control of the govt. and the council was rolling right along with it. The Jedi were, more or less what the Sith claimed. Doesn't make the Sith any better-- and Palpatine really went over the top. But it shows is that both sides (Sith & Jedi) needed to go for the good of the galaxy.

 

[Set Harth]

They're worse cause the see a wrong and do nothing to stop it.

If you do the math, you'll see the galaxy has many more "wrongs" than their proportionally extremely limited number of Jedi can ever hope to stop individually. So at that point you're arbitrarily picking a small number of people to free, while simultaneously starting a serious conflict between the Republic and Hutt Space that conveniently bypasses any kind of legitimate governmental approval and carries the risk of mass death. Here you're attempting to fault the Jedi for not being what Palpatine intends to portray them as, but the truth is that they recognize the limits to their authority and ( unlike Palpatine ) don't seek to impose their will on the entire galaxy.

Indeed, they avail themselves of that evil when it suited their needs: the clone army.

I blame Abraham Lincoln.

Again, my personal beliefs are not the topic of THIS conversation no matter what you may think they are.

Your good/evil moral equivalence has become very much the topic of this conversation.

The Jedi were, more or less what the Sith claimed.

Wrong -- you were simply fooled by Palpatine's smear campaign like everyone else. The Jedi were acting like the Republic cops they are.

The Jedi had originally come to confront Palpatine and arrest him by then he went ape shit on them and killed them all except Mace

 

[DarthPipes]

I agree with the Jedi taking out Palpatine. But just what the hell were they going to arrest him on? Arrest the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic because one Jedi said he was a Sith.

 

[SeerSGB]

I agree with the Jedi taking out Palpatine. But just what the hell were they going to arrest him on? Arrest the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic because one Jedi said he was a Sith.

Well it works well enough for them. Rather than avail themselves of the system, they decided to be judge and jury. As I said up thread, they'd been in shit if Palpatine hadn't been a Sith. Again, I blame it on weak writing in that part of the movie.

And what if he had walked? What if they people had simply said to the Jedi "STFU, we like it this way". Then what? Would that have the authority to still take him out just cause he's a different religion that them? You have to question is they was really worried about him gaming the system or the fact that their authority might be overruled, that the system might legitimately agree with him.

Your good/evil moral equivalence has become very much the topic of this conversation.

I didn't know I was a character in Clone Wars or Star Wars. As I said, I'm not the topic of this conversation. And I'd appreciate it if you'd understand and respect that.