Star Wars Books Thread

[JD]

There is absolutely no reason to adapt a movie into a book, except to cheaply make money. But, if they're going to do it anyway, they need to adapt it faithfully. No additions at all, it should be the script turned into a book, with the only differences being describing the action and settings in detail, which would be in a script because that's the stuff you see.

Wow, just when I think you can't get any ridiculous you spew out shit like this.
Since anything else I say will just be a repeat of my last post, I'm just going to quote it.

Are you talking about novelizations in general or just Star Wars novelizations? I love reading novelizations because of the additional stuff they add. Since novels can take their time and get more in depth they allow for a lot of extra worldbuilding and backstory, which often times does come directly from the creators of the movies. I just finished the Dark Crystal novelization, and there was some extra behind the scenes stuff in it that talks about how the ACH Smith, the author of the novelization, worked closely with Jim Henson on the novelization, so all of the stuff not in the movie, of which there's quite a bit, either comes from Henson directly, or was approved by him.. I'm pretty sure the PT novelization authors also worked pretty closely with George Lucas when they were writing the novels, and the current novelization authors are working with the Story Group so whatever they add to the books is also canon, and "counts". There are a lot of novelizations that don't add anything new, and those are pointless.

That makes no sense to me, since the point of an adaptation is to present additional information (i.e. The Petition of 2,000 in ROTS, or Anakin's encounter with a Tusken Raider in TPM) that sheds greater insight to these characters by taking advantage of the book form, versus the film format.

It's basically handcuffs on the author's hands to say "word for word-no additions or creativity."

Completely agree. The whole point of novelizations is take advantage of the additional space to both include stuff that didn't make it into the final onscreen version, and to take advantage of the fact that books can go a lot more in depth than a movie and include bits of backstory, character development, and explanations that you can't get into onscreen. It can also be really interesting to read them because sometimes they end up being based on an earlier version of the movie that was very different from what the final edit ended up being. I haven't read it yet, but I've gotten the impression this is what ended up happening with the Suicide Squad novel (written by SS comics writer Marv Wolfman).

 

[kirk55555]

Wow, just when I think you can't get any ridiculous you spew out shit like this.
Since anything else I say will just be a repeat of my last post, I'm just going to quote it.


Completely agree. The whole point of novelizations is take advantage of the additional space to both include stuff that didn't make it into the final onscreen version, and to take advantage of the fact that books can go a lot more in depth than a movie and include bits of backstory, character development, and explanations that you can't get into onscreen. It can also be really interesting to read them because sometimes they end up being based on an earlier version of the movie that was very different from what the final edit ended up being. I haven't read it yet, but I've gotten the impression this is what ended up happening with the Suicide Squad novel (written by SS comics writer Marv Wolfman).

To each their own, I guess. I don't really care if they exist. I know they'll keep getting made, because they can rush them out and make some quick money. I really just object when people try to pretend that the novelizations count when it comes to Star Wars. This isn't an individual movie or a movie exclusive franchise we're talking about, its Star Wars. When it comes to the movies, if what a novelization says wasn't on screen it doesn't count as canon to anything else.

The fact that novelizations have no real point, in my opinion, just makes me confused when people say they like them, but that's fine. If people didn't try to claim that the SW ones with additions were anything but non-canon made up stuff, I'd mostly just roll my eyes at them. My opinion is that all movie novelizations are pointless junk, but mostly harmless. In the case of Star Wars, anything in the novelization that isn't in the movie is no more canon then any other writers fanfiction.

What exactly is a "hate read"?

Its reading something you'll hate for various reasons. For me, I can't resist a trainwreck. Its my most common reason for hate watching. Hate reading for me is rarer because it tends to be a bigger time sink, I don't think I've managed to hate read an entire book (although I have gone through a few terrible comic book series that way).

Also, to counter other peoples definitions, its not done so you can derail arguments or other trolling bullshit. At least, not for me. I'd do this regardless of whether I was posting on a forum or not. Itr can be a bit of a Catch-22. Some people always argue you need to know absolutely everything about something before saying anything about it, then complain that you check something out to get more informed even though you know you'll hate it.

 

[Spot261]

I simply wouldn't have the time spare to do that even if I was inclined to. My time is too precious to waste on something I'm getting nothing worthwhile or positive from, especially if it's just for the train wreck.

As for your "catch 22" surely the solution is simply not to comment if you're in doubt?

 

[WebLurker]

Well, you're not going to be objectively right. My opinion is already completely formed, and rock solid. I'll hate read it, but that just means I'll probably get about 10 pages in and return it to the library before I give into the urge to destroy the crap book. Still, my opiniuon couldn't be anymore correct, from my perspective, then it is now. The attempted hate reading of "Thrawn" will just be a bit of masochism my nerdiness basically demands.

Why would you want to read it then? I avoid stuff I think I'll hate.

Nope. The book titled Thrawn is not about the actual Thrawn, we've established this. If Rebels hadn't stolen the name, then the books could have done something. But, now its just a sellout and/or yes man writing a book about a saturday morning cartoon villian, its not, in any way, a book connected to the actual character of Thrawn.

Moving on.

If they ever use Mara Jade on Rebels I'll probably die from a hate caused aneurysm, and if I survive that I'd never give a penny of my money to any non-film Star Wars thing ever again. The only thing that stops me from completely losing my shit about the new canon is that they haven't touched Mara. If they do, well let's just say it will probably inspire a hate filled rant so long it will technically be a short story

Can't knock you for being honest in this instance, although that seems like a bit of an overreaction.

Thrawn will never appear in the new canon. To this day he hasn't appeared and never will. The idiot cartoon villain with his name will never be more then what he is, no matter if he appears on stuff outside of Rebels or not.

That's just being disingenuous. It may not be your preferred iteration of the character, but it is the same character, or an adaptation of the character, if you prefer.

The same director and writers who didn't bother to give their main cast needed characterization contributed to a pointless tie-in novel that added nothing and fixed none of the problems the movie had? I'm shocked.

Let's not go there. The point is, that their involvement suggests that the novel is more important than you're giving it credit for.

There was no reason to tell any kind of story about Galen or Krennic. Absolutely none.

All I can say is that it made the movie better and was a decent read. Validation enough, I'd say.

The two soon to be Mos Eisley Cantina criminals who jyn bumps into deserve a book more then Galen or Krennic, because they at least have a story that we don't already know.

I don't want to tell you that you should read the Visual Guide, but you should read the Visual Guide.

Novelizations don't count, have no canon additions, and are just the movie in a worse form.

The novelizations are indeed canon; those who dictate such matters have declared them to be. Stop lying about that.

The non-fiction, non canon book for 8 year olds is no more relevant then, say, a coloring book. At least a coloring book would have some entertainment value.

The Rebel Dossier book is canonical, ergo relevant. (It gave us the name of the mission, for one.)

Nope. the problem is there is no canon information.

The problem is that you're spreading misinformation. All sources I cited are canonical. You don't have to like them, much less read them, but there is canon information. Period.

Until they write a general audience book or comic about the characters, we will continue to be completely in the dark about all the main characters. We'll never know why Jyn was in jail, or what happened with the guardians. We'll never know where K2 comes from. They could do this easily, but they have to have hacks like Claudia Grey crap out some more shit for the Twilight crowd instead.

If you want more original novels about the characters, fine. I would too. But lying about the accuracy of the sources we do have is not going to work. Most of your questions have been answered. Fact. Moving on.

If Pellaeon isn't on the ship, its not the Chimera (also, the Chimera doesn't have a shitty "ship tattoo" of an animal on the bottom).

What the what?

The other stuff will probably be as badly handled as the references to Thrawn looking at art where in Rebels. They think if they slap on a Thrawn paintjob it might convince people their blue idiot is Thrawn, but the writing hilariously misses the point of everything. I'd shudder to think what Dave Filoni's newest yes man wrote about the Chiss, but since the real thrawn doesn't exist it makes sense that real Chiss don't, either.

Disingenuousness mixed with editorialization. Moving on.

It doesn't matter if you hear me out or not. I'm not trying to change your opinion.

When claiming things as facts, it kinda does.

I read that comic, and you're going to have to site your sources and examples. It also can't be a little reference in the dialog, or to some ambiguous SW thing (if, say, someone just mentions Lothal at some point, that doesn't really count).

The mad Geonisian Queen Vader and Aphra encounter was hatched from the egg in the Rebels Geonosis story arc. The Powers That Be have confirmed that the various pieces of the Geonosis information across the franchise are designed to be strung together into a chain of events.

Shitty books from one of the worst authors to work on Star wars novels? Just the kind of thing I'd expect to connect to Rebels.

References to Lothal only. So, I guess they don't count by your reckoning, do they?

Unless someone time traveled, the shit ROTS novelization doesn't reference Rebels.

In Beware the Dark Side (an ROTJ novelization, sorry if I got that wrong), when explaining the situation to the Ewoks, there's an allusion to a boy who lit a spark of rebellion on his homeworld, referring to the season one finale of Rebels.

Not that it matters, because novelizations don't count.

Stop. Lying.

Rebels does not pave the way, them paying Whitaker (probably a metric ton of money) to do a voice cameo in their shit show doesn't mean anything.

Except that the pieces are tightly integrated and everything goes together in a larger story.

As for Rogue One, it did reference the show. Its also something Filoni's friends would be working on, and connected to the new canon. Personally, I'll forgive it the references if its revealed in something else that Ezra, Hera, Kanan, etc all die painful deaths, either during the battle or by getting captured by Vader during the battle. Outside of that, the references were lame but could have been completely removed and only improved the movie.

Given that they were all "blink-and-you'll-miss-them" things, I'm not sure what to tell you. They were far less intrusive than the Evenzeen and Ponda Baba cameo (which really should've been cut).

A crap kids book references Rebels. I'm really surprised. I did say that all the crap new canon stuff references Rebels. I said that, and then you went on to mention almost universally garbage books, along with one flawed movie and one comic that I know didn't have any big references.

Don't move the goalposts. You said that Rebels isn't connected much to the larger franchise. I cited example of where they are. If you don't like them, fine, but they're still legitimate examples.

To each their own, I guess. I don't really care if they exist. I know they'll keep getting made, because they can rush them out and make some quick money. I really just object when people try to pretend that the novelizations count when it comes to Star Wars. This isn't an individual movie or a movie exclusive franchise we're talking about, its Star Wars. When it comes to the movies, if what a novelization says wasn't on screen it doesn't count as canon to anything else.

Dude, I'm not pretending. It's a fact. Sorry you don't like it, but novelizations count. It's not up for us to debate.

The fact that novelizations have no real point, in my opinion, just makes me confused when people say they like them, but that's fine. If people didn't try to claim that the SW ones with additions were anything but non-canon made up stuff, I'd mostly just roll my eyes at them. My opinion is that all movie novelizations are pointless junk, but mostly harmless. In the case of Star Wars, anything in the novelization that isn't in the movie is no more canon then any other writers fanfiction.

I like the extra insight into the story and characters. They also look nice in my book collection, can be an easy way to re-experience the story, and are fun to have.

Its reading something you'll hate for various reasons. For me, I can't resist a trainwreck. Its my most common reason for hate watching. Hate reading for me is rarer because it tends to be a bigger time sink, I don't think I've managed to hate read an entire book (although I have gone through a few terrible comic book series that way).

Wow, that's something I don't think I'd enjoy doing.

 

[Ithekro]

The fact that novelizations have no real point, in my opinion, just makes me confused when people say they like them, but that's fine. If people didn't try to claim that the SW ones with additions were anything but non-canon made up stuff, I'd mostly just roll my eyes at them. My opinion is that all movie novelizations are pointless junk, but mostly harmless. In the case of Star Wars, anything in the novelization that isn't in the movie is no more canon then any other writers fanfiction.

See this I do not understand at all, especially considering your takes from earlier about telling a good story and or providing more of what happened. Bitching about something being non-canon seems like a very silly statement from one who loves the old EU. I mean, why should that matter at all at time point? Shouldn't the story be able to be told in a text medium that gets the finer details that no director, outside of maybe David Lynch, is going to try to put into the film, as it would slow down the pacing, or force the audience to listen to a character's inner monologue (I mean, can someone just shut up Paul Atreides in the Lynch version of Dune?)

Aside from that the amount of bile being directed at the current Star Wars novels is staggering. Especially at a book like Thrawn. I would think that would be THE book the old EU fans would latch onto in droves. Even more so the spite being pointed at Filoni is way more than is warranted by anyone. The tone is worse than anything I've heard fans spew out against even Jar Jar Binks. And I've heard a lot. I don't know how this level of hatred came about, but it is highly illogical, and quite frankly disturbing.

 

[tenmei]

The fact that novelizations have no real point, in my opinion, just makes me confused when people say they like them, but that's fine. If people didn't try to claim that the SW ones with additions were anything but non-canon made up stuff, I'd mostly just roll my eyes at them. My opinion is that all movie novelizations are pointless junk, but mostly harmless. In the case of Star Wars, anything in the novelization that isn't in the movie is no more canon then any other writers fanfiction.

I used to engage with novelisations and watch the movies - and having run a few school reading groups in the past, have seen my students engage with novelisations in the same way. They can often encourage less confident students to read because they've already got the movie/tv template in their mind, and that can only be a good thing - in the same way you get kids who will read a book because they've seen the movie adaptation.

On a side note - by the logic that a novelisation must only talk about what was depicted on screen, then in an adaptation from book to movie/tv then the adaptation must only show what was described on the page? Does that make the Harry Potter series defunct, any and all superhero movies, the Last Kingdom novels byBernard Cornwell, Beautifl Creatures by Kami Garcia and Margaret Stohl or the Magicians series by Lev Grossman and the Expanse seriesby James S.A. Corey, all of which have adaptations that diverge pretty significantly at points from the novels they've based on.

 

[Tuskin38]

The novelizations are indeed canon; those who dictate such matters have declared them to be. Stop lying about that.

Not entirely true. Where the novel differs from the movie, the movie wins.

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/678680351951085568
https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/705786418925187072

Not sure if that applies to deleted scenes staying in the novels or not.

But since novels are usually written before the movie is out, there can be contradictions.

So basically they're canon, except where they're not.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I can't wait to read Thrawn. Zahn writing about my favorite EU character who has magically been resurrected into the canonical universe?
Awesome. The excerpt of him conversing with the Emperor was flipping fantastic.

 

[kirk55555]

I simply wouldn't have the time spare to do that even if I was inclined to. My time is too precious to waste on something I'm getting nothing worthwhile or positive from, especially if it's just for the train wreck.

As for your "catch 22" surely the solution is simply not to comment if you're in doubt?

People don't have the right or authority to stop me from commenting on something just because I have a different opinion. Its an internet forum. If they only want to hear their own opinion on things repeated back to them, they've come to the wrong place.

Why would you want to read it then? I avoid stuff I think I'll hate.

Because I need to know what they did. I'm not just going to abandon things I liked, I'm going to see the depths they've fallen.

Can't knock you for being honest in this instance, although that seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I care more about the character of Mara Jade then I do Han, Luke or Leia. I'd be more angry if they ruin her then if they ruined the "big three" of the OT.

That's just being disingenuous. It may not be your preferred iteration of the character, but it is the same character, or an adaptation of the character, if you prefer.

Can something be an adaptation if its just the same name, appearance, and nothing else? Technically yes, but nothing more then in the technical sense, and its still insulting and terrible.

Let's not go there. The point is, that their involvement suggests that the novel is more important than you're giving it credit for.

No it doesn't. Its more likely they spent five minutes glancing at an outline, giving a few suggestions, and then forgetting about it because it doesn't effect the movie they were making at all.

All I can say is that it made the movie better and was a decent read. Validation enough, I'd say.

Its fine for you to have that opinion. Mine is that Catalyst is a pointless waste of time with no reason to exist, but its worse then that because its existence is a giant middle finger to the people who watched the movie. Instead of giving important backstory to the main RO characters, they waste time/paper/etc on unneeded stuff with side characters that didn't need any more story time devoted to them.

I don't want to tell you that you should read the Visual Guide, but you should read the Visual Guide.

I don't read non canon non-fiction books for kids that only exist so that little kids can look at pictures of stuff from the movie.

The novelizations are indeed canon; those who dictate such matters have declared them to be. Stop lying about that.

Yeah, when, say, Episode VIII directly references something that happened in a novelization, you might have a leg to stand on in this argument. Until then, if something in a novelization wasn't on screen, its non canon.

The Rebel Dossier book is canonical, ergo relevant. (It gave us the name of the mission, for one.)

That book is literally for 8 year olds. None of the non fiction for 8 year olds count. Heck, none of the non fiction books count, period.

The problem is that you're spreading misinformation. All sources I cited are canonical. You don't have to like them, much less read them, but there is canon information. Period.

No, they aren't canon, period. You believe they are, but they're not. They don't effect anything but themselves.

If you want more original novels about the characters, fine. I would too. But lying about the accuracy of the sources we do have is not going to work. Most of your questions have been answered. Fact. Moving on.

Not one of my questions have been answered. You keep making false statements and then punctuating them with "Period" or "Move on". You're not correct. There is no canon answer or backstory for any single RO main cast character. Only pointless shit about Krennic and Galen Erso.

The mad Geonisian Queen Vader and Aphra encounter was hatched from the egg in the Rebels Geonosis story arc. The Powers That Be have confirmed that the various pieces of the Geonosis information across the franchise are designed to be strung together into a chain of events.

If that's true, it became true as a retcon. That's assuming there was a mad genosian queen, I don't remember that and I read all the issues. If there was, it wasn't a focus of an issue.

In Beware the Dark Side (an ROTJ novelization, sorry if I got that wrong), when explaining the situation to the Ewoks, there's an allusion to a boy who lit a spark of rebellion on his homeworld, referring to the season one finale of Rebels.

So the kids novelization of the movie (which is somehow double non canon, being both for little kids and a novelization) mentions the cartoon for 5 year olds. I'm shocked.

Stop. Lying.

I'm not. novelizations don't count.

Except that the pieces are tightly integrated and everything goes together in a larger story.

Rebels isn't part of a larger anything, except as a part of Disney's larger scheme to print money by putting out garbage made by shit tv and book writers.

Given that they were all "blink-and-you'll-miss-them" things, I'm not sure what to tell you. They were far less intrusive than the Evenzeen and Ponda Baba cameo (which really should've been cut).

The Mos Eisley character cameo was great and a nice reference. The stuff connected to the little kids cartoon was obnoxious if you are unfortunate enough to recongnise them, and only work if we end up learning they all died during that mission.

Don't move the goalposts. You said that Rebels isn't connected much to the larger franchise. I cited example of where they are. If you don't like them, fine, but they're still legitimate examples.

I never said that. I said that two of the actually good new canon books didn't connect to Rebels, since you said Rebels connected to pretty much everything.

Wow, that's something I don't think I'd enjoy doing.

I've enjoyed a good hate watch of movies several times. For Star Wars, I don't enjoy it at all. Its for information purposes, and even then, like I said, I barely made it into a hate read of Lost Stars before abandoning it. But, it confirmed how correct I was about my own opinion. Stuggling through probably 5-10 pages of Fake Thrawn will serve the same purpose, and if its enough of a tranwreck I might struggle through all of it.

Aside from that the amount of bile being directed at the current Star Wars novels is staggering. Especially at a book like Thrawn. I would think that would be THE book the old EU fans would latch onto in droves. Even more so the spite being pointed at Filoni is way more than is warranted by anyone. The tone is worse than anything I've heard fans spew out against even Jar Jar Binks. And I've heard a lot. I don't know how this level of hatred came about, but it is highly illogical, and quite frankly disturbing.

There is spite because unlike Filoni and, apparently, Timothy Zahn, I actually like the real Thrawn. Not the shitty cartoon version, the real one. He deserves a book, and appearances on (good) TV shows, etc. The fact that he doesn't exist anymore is bad enough, but then they pile on that by stealing his name and appearance for that terrible pile of crap character on Rebels is what really pisses me off. If they're going to steal elements from the old EU, they either do it as accurately as possible or not at all.

At least Jar Jar stayed true to himself. He didn't start out as a good character and then get turned into a caricature by hacks like Thrawn has been. Why would a fan of the old EU and the real Thrawn not be pissed at the book and the new canon? The new canon is mostly pointless, badly written shit at this point (outside of the comics and three books). I say this as someone who is almost irrationally forgiving about Star Wars material, too (regardless of how it seems). But, the new canon has gone to the next level of shit by ruining Thrawn. Now, its not even telling its own crap stories, its taking awesome parts of the old EU and making them shit. That is why I'm so angry. I don't care if Filoni has a show about a bunch of shit Rebels traveling with Aladdin and fighting incompetent imperials. I've said some bad things about that, but I dropped it in the second season and didn't fee the need to really talk about it. But, once they use the name Thrawn for an incompetent imperial? Then make a book about that in-name-only Thrawn? That pisses me off (well, that and the mandalorian crap, but that is more of a sin of TCW cartoon that just got transferred over).

 

[Spot261]

Not my point, what I'm saying is if you don't know something because you aren't interested, why force yourself through it simply to be able to comment?

I mean, the main reason people post on a subject in a place like this is because they are fans of the subject first, forum posters second. What you describe sounds the wrong way round, you read a book you've already decided you don't like in order to be better informed when criticising it on a fan forum.

If you had read it and felt you didn't like it, fine, share that, but it just seems a really odd and circular way to spend your time, actively commenting on a book youve already decided you hate, then reading it after the fact in order to find something to support that argument and get some perverse pleasure from determinedly not giving it a chance.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Not entirely true. Where the novel differs from the movie, the movie wins.

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/678680351951085568
https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/705786418925187072

Not sure if that applies to deleted scenes staying in the novels or not.

But since novels are usually written before the movie is out, there can be contradictions.

So basically they're canon, except where they're not.

That doesn't explain their stance on extra-canonical information provided in the novels that do not necessarily contradict the source movie, but contradicts other parts of the established shared universe. The novel of ROTS for example references an awful lot of non-canonical legends books and comics for the Clone Wars period, the ANH novel first establishes the workings of FTL travels that recent movies seem to ignore or the history of the Sith in the TPM novelization that is totally different from anything we know now or then back in legends.

 

[Ithekro]

Not one of my questions have been answered. You keep making false statements and then punctuating them with "Period" or "Move on". You're not correct. There is no canon answer or backstory for any single RO main cast character. Only pointless shit about Krennic and Galen Erso.

I would point out that this stance is entirely contradictory to your earlier statements about wanting stories not directly tied to the movies. Having a tale of background characters (as you say) should be your cup of tea were you being honest with yourself. You wanted stories about people like that, and were complaining that you didn't get any. Now there are some and you are complaining about it?

Your hate vision is clouding your judgement and forcing you to spite something just to spite it. That is not logical, nor is it healthy.

For Thrawn....All indications point to Thrawn, the character in the novel, being Thrawn, from the old EU novels. The only thing one would get more of is what is going on in the man's head, since he's the main character, as oppose to the antagonist in the novels centered round a group of heroes. Now if you going to just hate it before even opening the book, don't. Walk away. Divorce yourself from Star Wars. Don't even give the Library the time of day. Live for something else, rather than invest in your hatred. Ulcers aren't worth the bile generated from all this hate. .

Now if you are just winding us up because you can and don't actually hate these things as much as you put on....stop it. Trolling is a terrible thing as we advance towards the third decade of the Internet.

 

[WebLurker]

Because I need to know what they did. I'm not just going to abandon things I liked, I'm going to see the depths they've fallen.

Suite yourself. (You might want to read Thrawn all the way to the end, though; there's some pretty interesting twists and turns at the end that re-shape the earlier scenes. Just saying.)

I care more about the character of Mara Jade then I do Han, Luke or Leia. I'd be more angry if they ruin her then if they ruined the "big three" of the OT.

Okay.

Can something be an adaptation if its just the same name, appearance, and nothing else? Technically yes, but nothing more then in the technical sense, and its still insulting and terrible.

Tell that to Big Hero 6 the movie.

No it doesn't. Its more likely they spent five minutes glancing at an outline, giving a few suggestions, and then forgetting about it because it doesn't effect the movie they were making at all.

For not affecting the movie, they sure do fit together really well as two halves of the same story (or like how the prequel and sequel trilogy combine to crate one larger story).

Its fine for you to have that opinion. Mine is that Catalyst is a pointless waste of time with no reason to exist, but its worse then that because its existence is a giant middle finger to the people who watched the movie. Instead of giving important backstory to the main RO characters, they waste time/paper/etc on unneeded stuff with side characters that didn't need any more story time devoted to them.

I'm confused, did you actually read Catalyst or are you basing your opinions on the idea that you wanted a different prequel novel?

I don't read non canon non-fiction books for kids that only exist so that little kids can look at pictures of stuff from the movie.

A.) The Visual Guide is canon (no way around that), and B.) it was actually written for an "adult audience."

Yeah, when, say, Episode VIII directly references something that happened in a novelization, you might have a leg to stand on in this argument. Until then, if something in a novelization wasn't on screen, its non canon.

That book is literally for 8 year olds.

My copy makes no reference of the age range it was intended for, and, excusing being a shorter read, isn't much different in writing style than stuff like the Essential Guides, the Jedi Path series, and other in-universe reference books that were obviously marked to an universal audience.

None of the non fiction for 8 year olds count. Heck, none of the non fiction books count, period.

They actually do count. You're the only person I know who argues this. Where is that written?

No, they aren't canon, period. You believe they are, but they're not. They don't effect anything but themselves.

I'm going to get back to you on the novelization canoncity question.

Not one of my questions have been answered. You keep making false statements and then punctuating them with "Period" or "Move on". You're not correct. There is no canon answer or backstory for any single RO main cast character. Only pointless shit about Krennic and Galen Erso.

I'm not the one claiming that LucasFilm's official policy is wrong. According to the Powers That Be, the stuff you're dismissing is canonical. Case closed.

If that's true, it became true as a retcon. That's assuming there was a mad genosian queen, I don't remember that and I read all the issues. If there was, it wasn't a focus of an issue.

In Issue #4, or Vol. 1: Vader, if you prefer trade paperbacks. Or you can read the bio on the Wook here.

So the kids novelization of the movie (which is somehow double non canon, being both for little kids and a novelization) mentions the cartoon for 5 year olds. I'm shocked.

I will concede that this book is not exactly the most accurate of sources, but it is what it is.

I'm not. novelizations don't count.

Wait for it.

Rebels isn't part of a larger anything, except as a part of Disney's larger scheme to print money by putting out garbage made by shit tv and book writers.

That's how franchises work; in this case, they're doing it by interconnecting everything.

The Mos Eisley character cameo was great and a nice reference. The stuff connected to the little kids cartoon was obnoxious if you are unfortunate enough to recongnise them, and only work if we end up learning they all died during that mission.

Whatever.

I never said that. I said that two of the actually good new canon books didn't connect to Rebels, since you said Rebels connected to pretty much everything.

Sorry if I misspoke and said "everything." A more accurate thing to say would be: "Star Wars is now operating under a multi-media canon, with a large number of links between the different sources in a variety of ways, including the Rebels TV show being referenced in other places, like novels and movies."

I've enjoyed a good hate watch of movies several times. For Star Wars, I don't enjoy it at all. Its for information purposes, and even then, like I said, I barely made it into a hate read of Lost Stars before abandoning it. But, it confirmed how correct I was about my own opinion. Stuggling through probably 5-10 pages of Fake Thrawn will serve the same purpose, and if its enough of a tranwreck I might struggle through all of it.

Whatever.


Now, you and @Tuskin38 were bringing up the "novelizations aren't canon" question. Here's how I understand it:

The novelizations of the original six movies and Clone Wars movie are only canon when they align exactly with the movies, with any additional material being non-canon. So, they're non-canon for all practical purposes. (I believe that's what the Twitter posts were referring to; at least the ones I could find.)

Novelizations written from Force Awakens onward are canon, but kind of squishy. There are some discrepancies and differences, but the information is accurate. Case in point, in the TFA novelization, in the scene where Kylo Ren meets with Snoke (the one where Ren is told that BB-8 is on the Falcon), the novel adds a chunk of conversation where Snoke discusses a bit of his history and why he picked Kylo. Likewise, the scene with Leia and Han discussing whether their son can be redeemed or not also has extra lines in the movie were we get more of an explanation as to how Snoke recruited Ren in the first place.

Are those conversations canonical in and of themselves? No, in the movie we saw that there's no space for those parts of the conversations to have happened, either in the scene itself or after the camera cut away to the next part of the movie. But the information those scenes convey is canonical. That is Snoke's canon backstory, the canon version of Kylo's corruption, etc.

Scenes that happened off-camera are obviously canon, since they don't conflict with the movie itself, as is stuff that could be assumed to have happened just before or after the camera cut away to a new scene (like how in the TFA novel, Rey and BB-8 discuss the attack on the Sacred Village before getting attacked by Plutt's thugs, which we didn't see since we were with Finn when that happened).

There are obvious discrepancies with the movie that are simply not canon (like the way all the books that retold the movies claimed that Rey initially agreed to sell BB-8 before having a change of heart) and there are the occasional discrepancies between the different novelizations (Rogue One adult novel: Jyn is completely emotionally estranged from her father at the beginning, junior novel: no reference to that and a throwaway line establishing that the years of separation have not changed the fact that Jyn still loves her father). I have no idea how those get reconciled I tend to assume that adult ones outweigh the jr. ones unless the movie confirms or fits another one better).

If you can cite a source that clarifies that LucasFilm has changed their policy in regards to the Disney novelizations and is pretty clear about it (some of the Twitter comments are vague), then I'll need to rethink this, but until the day they do, the novelizations being canon (albeit a squishy, provisional canoncity) still stands.

(And as far as books written for elementary on up and reference books being canon -- excusing parodies and the like -- that's never been a question; we were told they are, they are treated as such, the Powers That Be have not backed down from that position. Unlike the novelizations, which are a gray area, this one is not in doubt. They are fully canon. Period.

 

[Tuskin38]

You guys should just click on their name and click 'ignore'. I did that months ago, it is beautiful. It even hides their quotes in other people's posts. The downside it makes it look like you guys are talking to yourselves.

 

[WebLurker]

You guys should just click on their name and click 'ignore'. I did that months ago, it is beautiful. It even hides their quotes in other people's posts. The downside it makes it look like you guys are talking to yourselves.

Sometimes, there's nothing like a good rhubarb.

 

[kirk55555]

Not my point, what I'm saying is if you don't know something because you aren't interested, why force yourself through it simply to be able to comment?

I mean, the main reason people post on a subject in a place like this is because they are fans of the subject first, forum posters second. What you describe sounds the wrong way round, you read a book you've already decided you don't like in order to be better informed when criticising it on a fan forum.

If you had read it and felt you didn't like it, fine, share that, but it just seems a really odd and circular way to spend your time, actively commenting on a book youve already decided you hate, then reading it after the fact in order to find something to support that argument and get some perverse pleasure from determinedly not giving it a chance.

Like I said, I'd be reading (or at least attempting the read) Thrawn even if I didn't discuss things online. I'm doing it for my own morbid curiosity, to see how bad it actually is. The fact that I can use my experience in discussions is just a side effect.

I would point out that this stance is entirely contradictory to your earlier statements about wanting stories not directly tied to the movies. Having a tale of background characters (as you say) should be your cup of tea were you being honest with yourself. You wanted stories about people like that, and were complaining that you didn't get any. Now there are some and you are complaining about it?

I want both. If they're going to tie books into the movie, fix the problems the damn movie had. Also, its not like I don't love many, many old EU books that focus on movie characters. Just because I love, say, the X-Wing books and all its original characters doesn't mean I don't want to read about Luke, Han, Leia, etc. Same for this. I want to know more about the Rogue One characters. If I didn't care, it wouldn't bother me that they get basically nothing in the movie. I want a story about K2's past about as much as I want a book about characters completely unrelated to the movies or cartoons. Its not an either/or thing. Tarkin and Lords of the Sith were very good books that had movie characters but we're specifically tying into a specific movie. Stuff like that needs to be done more.

The new canon is screwed for the other kind of book because we won't be getting any good original characters from the books anymore. In the old EU, they had many non-movie/cartoon characters to use, and did a good job creating more. In the New Canon, if its not from a movie, Rebels or a hack twilight writer, they won't get a book. The comics don't suffer from this (see Aphra's comic), but we won't be getting the equivalent of the X-Wing novels, Coruscant Nights novels, Republic Commando novels, etc, where most of the main cast was created outside of the main franchise stuff.

For Thrawn....All indications point to Thrawn, the character in the novel, being Thrawn, from the old EU novels. The only thing one would get more of is what is going on in the man's head, since he's the main character, as oppose to the antagonist in the novels centered round a group of heroes. Now if you going to just hate it before even opening the book, don't. Walk away. Divorce yourself from Star Wars. Don't even give the Library the time of day. Live for something else, rather than invest in your hatred. Ulcers aren't worth the bile generated from all this hate.

The character in the novel is not Thrawn. There is no part of him, outside of the name/appearance, that has any connection to the real character. The real character was great, and my favorite Star Wars villain, even over Vader or Palpatine. I'm going to open the book because I want to know how badly they've screwed this up. I know how terrible the character with Thrawn's name is on Rebels, and I'm morbidly curious to see if the book manages to be worse.

Why would I divorce myself from Star Wars? I love the universe. I love the movies (minus the first two prequels), I love the old EU and I even really enjoy most of the new comics. Its the books and the crappy cartoon that piss me off. I'm not dropping a franchise just because parts of it are shit. I'm only so angry because I actually care about the franchise and the characters. Its too bad the people working on parts of the franchise don't, but I'm not being driven off my them.

Now if you are just winding us up because you can and don't actually hate these things as much as you put on....stop it. Trolling is a terrible thing as we advance towards the third decade of the Internet.

I don't troll. I legitimately hate this stuff. When I finish posting, I generally just fume about this stuff for awhile. Thrawn specifically tends to leave me angry for awhile even when I'm done discussing it. I also once really annoyed my brother by randomly going off on the TCW treatment of mandalorians. Its not like I'm angry 24/7, I have other things I like, but once I start thinking about something, I stay angry for awhile.

Suite yourself. (You might want to read Thrawn all the way to the end, though; there's some pretty interesting twists and turns at the end that re-shape the earlier scenes. Just saying.)

I don't really have a choice as to how much I'll read. If it pisses me off enough, and it will, I won't read past the point it makes me angry. The ending has no effect on the story. Unless the end directly removes Rebels from canon, its not going to be changing my mind on anything. Its already going to be the worst Star Wars book I've ever looked at because of how much I hate the fake Thrawn its about.

Tell that to Big Hero 6 the movie.

The poorly done Disney film based off an obscure, uninteresting comic? Not exactly winning your argument with that example.

For not affecting the movie, they sure do fit together really well as two halves of the same story (or like how the prequel and sequel trilogy combine to crate one larger story).

The prequels fit well with the OT? They certainly don't feel like two halves of the story. As for Catalyst, its not half the story. Its, maybe, 1/50th of the story, and its the 1/50th that was easily guessed and not needed.

I'm confused, did you actually read Catalyst or are you basing your opinions on the idea that you wanted a different prequel novel?

I have better things to do with my time then read Catalyst. Its not even hate reading with Catalyst, its a waste of time. But, I know its ponly about the characters that needed no extra backstory, and online sources confirm its all pointless garbage instead of the backstory the movie desperately needed.

A.) The Visual Guide is canon (no way around that), and B.) it was actually written for an "adult audience."

Amazon says it was written for people starting around 4th grade (which is about age 9 in the US, I just realized that 8-12 is specifically for that terrible "Rebel Dossier" that was mentioned earlier). They've had books in that format for decades, its a kids book format that exists specifically for young kids. I've been seeing them in libraries even back when I was a kid.

I'm not the one claiming that LucasFilm's official policy is wrong. According to the Powers That Be, the stuff you're dismissing is canonical. Case closed.

No, its not. Its just like those grade school kids books. Its funny, back in the day people didn't argue the little kids books were anything but non-canon. For some reason, the terrible new canon stuff gets desperately defended.

That's how franchises work; in this case, they're doing it by interconnecting everything.

Not really. Its a big universe, everything can't connect to everything else. To try otherwise is small universe syndrome at best, crappy writing at worst.

Sorry if I misspoke and said "everything." A more accurate thing to say would be: "Star Wars is now operating under a multi-media canon, with a large number of links between the different sources in a variety of ways, including the Rebels TV show being referenced in other places, like novels and movies."

Rebels gets referenced because Filoni has friends, and Disney wants to get the five year olds watching the movie to go watch their crappy show for little kids. Its nothing besides that, and I've already pointed out several places that contain no reference to it.

The novelizations of the original six movies and Clone Wars movie are only canon when they align exactly with the movies, with any additional material being non-canon. So, they're non-canon for all practical purposes. (I believe that's what the Twitter posts were referring to; at least the ones I could find.)

Novelizations written from Force Awakens onward are canon, but kind of squishy. There are some discrepancies and differences, but the information is accurate. Case in point, in the TFA novelization, in the scene where Kylo Ren meets with Snoke (the one where Ren is told that BB-8 is on the Falcon), the novel adds a chunk of conversation where Snoke discusses a bit of his history and why he picked Kylo. Likewise, the scene with Leia and Han discussing whether their son can be redeemed or not also has extra lines in the movie were we get more of an explanation as to how Snoke recruited Ren in the first place.

Are those conversations canonical in and of themselves? No, in the movie we saw that there's no space for those parts of the conversations to have happened, either in the scene itself or after the camera cut away to the next part of the movie. But the information those scenes convey is canonical. That is Snoke's canon backstory, the canon version of Kylo's corruption, etc.

Scenes that happened off-camera are obviously canon, since they don't conflict with the movie itself, as is stuff that could be assumed to have happened just before or after the camera cut away to a new scene (like how in the TFA novel, Rey and BB-8 discuss the attack on the Sacred Village before getting attacked by Plutt's thugs, which we didn't see since we were with Finn when that happened).

There are obvious discrepancies with the movie that are simply not canon (like the way all the books that retold the movies claimed that Rey initially agreed to sell BB-8 before having a change of heart) and there are the occasional discrepancies between the different novelizations (Rogue One adult novel: Jyn is completely emotionally estranged from her father at the beginning, junior novel: no reference to that and a throwaway line establishing that the years of separation have not changed the fact that Jyn still loves her father). I have no idea how those get reconciled I tend to assume that adult ones outweigh the jr. ones unless the movie confirms or fits another one better).

If you can cite a source that clarifies that LucasFilm has changed their policy in regards to the Disney novelizations and is pretty clear about it (some of the Twitter comments are vague), then I'll need to rethink this, but until the day they do, the novelizations being canon (albeit a squishy, provisional canoncity) still stands.

(And as far as books written for elementary on up and reference books being canon -- excusing parodies and the like -- that's never been a question; we were told they are, they are treated as such, the Powers That Be have not backed down from that position. Unlike the novelizations, which are a gray area, this one is not in doubt. They are fully canon. Period.

Whatever. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll take a 10 year olds fanfiction as canon before I'd take a novelization (the fanfiction would also probably be more entertaining and fit better in the universe).

 

[Tuskin38]

The Rebels references in Rogue One were not because of Filoni, or anyone on the Rebels team asking them to include, that was something the team over on Rogue One asked them if they could do.

 

[Ithekro]

Star Wars always had "small universe syndrome" With the way the hyperdrives work it sort of makes it possible to be anywhere in a day or so. Everyone seemed to know about everyone else or know them personally at some point. One day you have a crew off Tatooine, the next they are across the galaxy at Yavin, after a layover in the Alderaan system in the Core Worlds. Or going from Lothal to Geonosis, to Mustifar. None of those are even in the same sector. They all count as Outer Rim Territories,, but that's like the outer quarter of the galaxy around like half of the galaxy as a whole.

 

[Set Harth]

So, they're non-canon for all practical purposes.

Seems like an easier way to say that would have been "they're non-canon".

It's possible "align" is being read too strictly.

 

[fireproof78]

Star Wars always had "small universe syndrome" With the way the hyperdrives work it sort of makes it possible to be anywhere in a day or so. Everyone seemed to know about everyone else or know them personally at some point. One day you have a crew off Tatooine, the next they are across the galaxy at Yavin, after a layover in the Alderaan system in the Core Worlds. Or going from Lothal to Geonosis, to Mustifar. None of those are even in the same sector. They all count as Outer Rim Territories,, but that's like the outer quarter of the galaxy around like half of the galaxy as a whole.

Indeed. It really wasn't until the PT came out that even different stories started to branch out and away from the Big 3 and their victory at Endor.

Even the PT suffers from small universe because 3-PO has to be built by Anakin, which is an odd choice to me. So, small universe is nothing new to Star Wars as all.