Star Wars Books Thread

[kirk55555]

Have you ever even watched Rebels?

I watched around 25-26 episodes of the the worst written trash that would make old school Filmation shows embarrassed by how poorly written they were. I've said it a lot, but Rebels has characters that make the people on Captain Planet look well rounded. Its got writers who apparently think Droids and Ewoks was too dark and complicated.

I was content to just ignore the show after the space whales finally overwhelmed the Star Wars fan in me and made me stop watching the show. I don't really care if Aladdin is fighting the flying helicopter sith to save the space whales. Its terrible, but I could ignore it. I could even get past them killing one of the best Clone Wars characters off (after making her act like a clueless moron for several episodes), because I just don't count Rebels as canon (anymore then I do those Lego cartoon specials). Then they decided to use the metaphorical corpse of the greatest villain in the Star Wars franchise (book, comic, movie, etc) to presumably make some quick money off one of the EU characters more recognizable to less hardcore fans.

I can't and won't ignore the Rebels writers (who I'm starting to doubt are actually capable of writing so much as a coherent tweet, much less a competent story) go and destroy Thrawn. The only good thing is that there is a Timothy Zahn Thrawn book coming that certainly won't be connected to the abomination of a character that Rebels is calling "Thrawn".

 

[WebLurker]

I watched around 25-26 episodes of the the worst written trash that would make old school Filmation shows embarrassed by how poorly written they were. I've said it a lot, but Rebels has characters that make the people on Captain Planet look well rounded. Its got writers who apparently think Droids and Ewoks was too dark and complicated.

Umm, forgive me for being skeptical, but I've seen episodes of all three shows, and Rebels is on a higher level of quality than Droids and Ewoks (and I'm saying this as someone who thinks those two are not as bad as they're made out to be, with a high fun factor). Rebels does go dark, as I know from first-hand viewing.

I was content to just ignore the show after the space whales finally overwhelmed the Star Wars fan in me and made me stop watching the show. I don't really care if Aladdin is fighting the flying helicopter sith to save the space whales. Its terrible, but I could ignore it.

Your mixing episodes up. The "space whales" and "copter Sith" were separate stories. The copters were kind of dumb, I will concede, but they're in only one episode.

I could even get past them killing one of the best Clone Wars characters off (after making her act like a clueless moron for several episodes)...

You'll have to explain how you-know-who was a "clueless moron," because I don't see how that's accurate. Also, if you think you-know-who is dead for good, there's an infamous Easter egg in the season two finale that suggests otherwise (an ill-advised decision IMHO). However, IMHO, if you-know-who is dead for good, the send off was a good one.

...because I just don't count Rebels as canon (anymore then I do those Lego cartoon specials).

Not exactly your call to make, but whatever. (Lego Freemaker Adventures is actually pretty awesome.)

Then they decided to use the metaphorical corpse of the greatest villain in the Star Wars franchise (book, comic, movie, etc) to presumably make some quick money off one of the EU characters more recognizable to less hardcore fans.

But Darth Vader was already on the show and isn't an EU creation. Okay, kidding aside, so what? Thrawn is not the first Legends character to make the jump to canon. He's the type of character that would work well for the setting, and, for some fans, it'd be fun to see him come to life on screen. As far as I can tell, the motivation for including him was that they loved the character and wanted a chance to tell stories with him, not that he'd give the show a ratings boost. On top of that, I don't think Thrawn is that popular. The tie-in-reading Star Wars fans, like us, are the minority.

I can't and won't ignore the Rebels writers (who I'm starting to doubt are actually capable of writing so much as a coherent tweet, much less a competent story) go and destroy Thrawn.

You're free to hold your own opinions on the quality of the show, but, since you're judging the upcoming episodes to be failures without having even seen them, I am not instilled with the urge to take you seriously.

The only good thing is that there is a Timothy Zahn Thrawn book coming that certainly won't be connected to the abomination of a character that Rebels is calling "Thrawn".

Sorry to bust your bubble, but the novel is a prequel of sorts, explaining how Thrawn got to the place we're going to meet him in Rebels.

Interestingly enough, Zahn himself has given the Rebels Thrawn the thumbs up. Also very interestingly, Dave Filoni has gone on record as wanting to make an accurate adaptation, per this article:

“I was pretty adamant with a couple of people saying, ‘Listen, we need to have Tim sign off on this. This is kind of a waste of time [otherwise],'” says Filoni. “We, of course, can do what we want with a character that Lucasfilm owns, but without Tim’s okay, what does it mean? That’s not going to be good. Once we had some stuff, we wanted to do what we thought was right and make the character. Then we brought him in. We had the production fully prepared. I said, ‘Look, if there’s something that Tim says that I think is really valuable, even if it changes something dynamically, we need to be ready for that and see what we can do.’ I wanted to make sure we did this right by everybody. We brought him in and we didn’t really tell him why. We just flew him up to Lucasfilm and sat him down in a theater and said, ‘Hey, we’re bringing Thrawn into the show.’ He was like, ‘Wow.’ and I said, ‘Yeah, wow. And I’m going to show him to you right now and you let me know what you think.'”

Fortunately, Timothy Zahn was delighted at the show’s approach to the Empire’s imposing blue-skinned Chiss.

“We showed him some of the scenes with him,” Dave Filoni recalls. “He looked like a kid in a candy store. I think it meant a lot to him not just because it was his character, but because you have to imagine what he went through when it was announced that everything is Legends now, not Expanded Universe. I get that and I’ve always appreciated the work that goes into the Expanded Universe… For Tim, I think it was us saying, ‘No, no, no. We really like your character. We want him to be part of the real thing. The canon universe.'”

 

[JD]

Sure Rebels may not be at the same level as the best of Clone Wars, but to say it's worse than old school Filmation is ridiculous. I've only seen a handful of Season 2 episodes, but I thought it was actually getting really good as it finished up Season 1, it definitely improved a lot as the season went on. From what I've heard it got even better as Season 2 went on, which I would believe based on the episodes I saw.

 

[kirk55555]

Umm, forgive me for being skeptical, but I've seen episodes of all three shows, and Rebels is on a higher level of quality than Droids and Ewoks (and I'm saying this as someone who thinks those two are not as bad as they're made out to be, with a high fun factor). Rebels does go dark, as I know from first-hand viewing.

Rebels barely goes darker then Care Bears. Ewoks looks like a Zach Snyder movie in tone compared to Rebels.

You'll have to explain how you-know-who was a "clueless moron," because I don't see how that's accurate. Also, if you think you-know-who is dead for good, there's an infamous Easter egg in the season two finale that suggests otherwise (an ill-advised decision IMHO). However, IMHO, if you-know-who is dead for good, the send off was a good one.

Obi Wan recognized Vader's presence after having not seen him for 19 years. The character Rebels turned into a moron took at least two meetings to recongnise Vader for who he is, and she had a deep connection to Anakin, she would recongnise him even if he had gone evil since they'd last seen each other.

But Darth Vader was already on the show and isn't an EU creation. Okay, kidding aside, so what? Thrawn is not the first Legends character to make the jump to canon. He's the type of character that would work well for the setting, and, for some fans, it'd be fun to see him come to life on screen. As far as I can tell, the motivation for including him was that they loved the character and wanted a chance to tell stories with him, not that he'd give the show a ratings boost.

No one who works on Rebels gives a damn about Star Wars. Its obviously in every second of the show, and they sure as hell don't care about Thrawn. They're hastily making a terrible saturday morning cartoon with little thought and less effort. They probably stuck him in after browsing wookiepedia for a name to exploit, and then went from their (probably without even reading the wiki entry on the character).

You're free to hold your own opinions on the quality of the show, but, since you're judging the upcoming episodes to be failures without having even seen them, I am not instilled with the urge to take you seriously.

That's like saying I can't say the next episode of Toddlers & Tiaras or any other horrible show is crap until I see the next episode. When every episode of a show is junk, you can make a pretty safe predition it won't be turning itself around in the next episode.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but the novel is a prequel of sorts, explaining how Thrawn got to the place we're going to meet him in Rebels.

Nope, its just giving him a new origin. It won't require the episode, and the episode won't require the book (because the episode will have all the narrative depth of a cereal box, like every eisode of Rebels, but still). So, they're not connected stories. Rebels might reference the book, but Zahn gets to write Thrawn like he wants, he doesn't have to write him like the idiots on Rebels are writing their "Thrawn".

Interestingly enough, Zahn himself has given the Rebels Thrawn the thumbs up. Also very interestingly, Dave Filoni has gone on record as wanting to make an accurate adaptation, per this article:

I really like Zahn as a writer. But, being a writer is his job. He'd say anything Disney wanted him to say so he could keep getting work. That's not a jab against him, its just how things work. He could hate their use of Thrawn but he'd never say it, because he wants to keep writing SW books. So, I don't trust what he says about Rebels.

As for Filoni, he's an idiot and so full of crap its probably bursting out his ears at this point. I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sky was blue. The guy obviously hates SW at this point, almost as much as he hates the CW cartoon. He's incompetent, and terrible when it comes to making a good show at this point. He'll pull out some BS to keep some of the louder nerds off his back, but I'd trust Lucas with Star Wars again before I'd trust Filoni.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Wormhole]

I really like Zahn as a writer. But, being a writer is his job. He'd say anything Disney wanted him to say so he could keep getting work. That's not a jab against him, its just how things work. He could hate their use of Thrawn but he'd never say it, because he wants to keep writing SW books. So, I don't trust what he says about Rebels.

The new Thrawn novel is Zahn's first Star Wars novel under Disney, and by the time it comes out his first Star Wars novel in general in four years. I think he's doing fine finding work without having to kiss the Mouse's ring.

 

[kirk55555]

The new Thrawn novel is Zahn's first Star Wars novel under Disney, and by the time it comes out his first Star Wars novel in general in four years. I think he's doing fine finding work without having to kiss the Mouse's ring.

He can find other work, but if he wants to write a SW book, he has to toe the company line. Even if he isn't lying for them, he'd probably be so excited to see something he wrote on TV that he wouldn't really care about the quality. Basically, he's far from objective in this situation.

 

[The Wormhole]

He can find other work, but if he wants to write a SW book,

Which he hasn't done since 2013. Actually 2012 since his last SW novel, Scoundrels was released January 1, 2013, the actual writing took place in 2012. I'm not really sure writing Star Wars is much of a priority for him, at least no so much of one he'd be willing to lie and pretend to like something he really doesn't for them.

 

[kirk55555]

Which he hasn't done since 2013. Actually 2012 since his last SW novel, Scoundrels was released January 1, 2013, the actual writing took place in 2012. I'm not really sure writing Star Wars is much of a priority for him, at least no so much of one he'd be willing to lie and pretend to like something he really doesn't for them.

Why not? It doesn't hurt him at all to lie for them, and if he didn't care he wouldn't be writing another book for them. I doubt they approached him about another book. He's written enough SW books to show he probably likes writing them. Its a job, but if he didn't like to do it he wouldn't. Like I said, he's either lying or he's just really excited to see a character vaguely based on one of his characters show up on TV. Plus, I'm sure he's not a "cartoon guy". He's probably of the generation that thinks about stuff like Superfriends when they think of cartoons, so that's the kind of quality he'd expect to see anyway. Either way, he's very far from objective on this topic, so his opinion isn't worth much.

 

[WebLurker]

Rebels barely goes darker then Care Bears. Ewoks looks like a Zach Snyder movie in tone compared to Rebels.

Okay, sorry, where was I? Ewoks being dark and gritty compared to Rebels, which is ostensibly as lighthearted as '80s TMNT?



If you can provide some examples, I'll hear you out, but I think you're dead wrong on this point -- and I speak from having seen these shows firsthand.

Obi Wan recognized Vader's presence after having not seen him for 19 years. The character Rebels turned into a moron took at least two meetings to recongnise Vader for who he is, and she had a deep connection to Anakin, she would recongnise him even if he had gone evil since they'd last seen each other.

Interesting point. However, if I recall correctly, when they were first in the same area, she got a strong nudge that something wasn't right. She also got a Force vision about it, two. So, I don't think that she's quite the idiot you're painting her has.

No one who works on Rebels gives a damn about Star Wars. Its obviously in every second of the show...

Maybe you should explain how, since I've seen all the episodes to date and I'd swear in a court of law that the show is run by people who love what they do and the franchise they're working on.

...and they sure as hell don't care about Thrawn.

How do we know that?

They're hastily making a terrible saturday morning cartoon with little thought and less effort.

I've seen some of the behind the scenes vidcasts and they seem to put a lot of planning into the show's execution. Quality of final product is, of course, subjective, but at least give the devil his due.

They probably stuck him in after browsing wookiepedia for a name to exploit, and then went from their (probably without even reading the wiki entry on the character).

That's like saying I can't say the next episode of Toddlers & Tiaras or any other horrible show is crap until I see the next episode. When every episode of a show is junk, you can make a pretty safe predition it won't be turning itself around in the next episode.

I follow what you're saying to an extent, and even agree with you in general (however, Star Trek Beyond taught me that even a crap series can produce real gems). But, the question wasn't: "Will Rebels get better?" The question was: "Will Thrawn suck in the show?" Let's stay on topic.

So, we can't answer the question until we see how it actually plays out. He could be very good in it, even if the show itself is still allegedly bad. For what it's worth, I have seen the season three trailer with him in it and, in that, at least, he is the same character from the books, so I do not share your un-optimistic appraisal of the situation. If you've seen the trailer and can point anything out, I'll be willing to reexamine my position.

Nope, its just giving him a new origin.

Probably (although Zahn has said there will be some Easter eggs to his previous novels).

It won't require the episode, and the episode won't require the book...

But they're still going to be pieces of the same, larger story.

...(because the episode will have all the narrative depth of a cereal box, like every eisode of Rebels, but still).

I'll give you credit for candor, if nothing else.

So, they're not connected stories.

I take it you're not following the Star Wars EU these days.

Rebels might reference the book, but Zahn gets to write Thrawn like he wants, he doesn't have to write him like the idiots on Rebels are writing their "Thrawn".

Umm, no. There's this thing called the "Story Group." It's their job to make sure everything in the franchise lines up the way its supposed to. Zahn's work has to pass their muster (just like it had to pass approval when Zahn wrote the originals all those years ago). So, yeah, Zahn and the "idiots" are going to be trying to make their their stuff compatible, meaning that the Thrawn in the novel will be the same one on the TV show.

I really like Zahn as a writer. But, being a writer is his job. He'd say anything Disney wanted him to say so he could keep getting work. That's not a jab against him, its just how things work. He could hate their use of Thrawn but he'd never say it, because he wants to keep writing SW books. So, I don't trust what he says about Rebels.

Wow. Just wow. We're not even giving Zahn the benefit of the doubt that he might be sincere?

As for Filoni, he's an idiot and so full of crap its probably bursting out his ears at this point. I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sky was blue.

Seriously? What the frak has Filoni done to deserve such an assessment?

The guy obviously hates SW at this point, almost as much as he hates the CW cartoon.

I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.

He's incompetent, and terrible when it comes to making a good show at this point. He'll pull out some BS to keep some of the louder nerds off his back, but I'd trust Lucas with Star Wars again before I'd trust Filoni.

I'm going to make a wild guess. I think that you're a Star Wars Legends fan who's not in favor of the reboot. The vibe I'm getting that the show is awful and the people making it hate the franchise, because they're ignoring Legends and replacing it with new stuff. (That's how you're coming across, at least.)

Look, I'm going to be frank. A lot of the statement you've made seem so out of touch with reality to me, that I suspect you're trying to troll. If you'd offer some specifics and reasoning beyond blanket statements and weird accusations, I'd be willing to discuss it (I find these kind of discussions interesting), but as is, you're coming across as a fanboy who won't look at stuff objectively.

 

[Reverend]

Guys, guys...you're doing that thing where you're trying to argue Kirk's opinions with logic. Don't do that. Never ends pretty. Just smile nod and move on before the whole thread becomes a shouting match with a brick wall.

Sure Rebels may not be at the same level as the best of Clone Wars, but to say it's worse than old school Filmation is ridiculous. I've only seen a handful of Season 2 episodes, but I thought it was actually getting really good as it finished up Season 1, it definitely improved a lot as the season went on. From what I've heard it got even better as Season 2 went on, which I would believe based on the episodes I saw.

Just my opinion, but I would say that by the end of season 2, 'Rebels' has easily caught up to TCW's peak level of quality and everything I've seen of season 3 makes it look like they're continuing that trend.

 

[kirk55555]

If you can provide some examples, I'll hear you out, but I think you're dead wrong on this point -- and I speak from having seen these shows firsthand.

Rebels had an episode about Space Whales. It regularly has the droid try to kill them (and that is 100% not a joke, the droid legitimately tries to hurt the crew members) and they do nothing because its comic relief. Aladdin is treated more like the chosen one then Anakin was, and he's more powerful as a 12-13 year old then Luke was in RotJ. That only happens because the really kiddie shows always want to make their viewer stand in character "super cool" so the kids can imagine its them who are super awesome secret jedi, even if its a ridiculous amount of power and the character comes off as way to skilled for his age. That works with some shows (Dexter was a genius on Dexter's lab, the Kids Next Door were kid spies, and you bought it). But, this is supposedly in canon with the Star Wars movies, and there is no way "super awesome space Aladdin" exists in the same universe as Luke Skywalker.

Interesting point. However, if I recall correctly, when they were first in the same area, she got a strong nudge that something wasn't right. She also got a Force vision about it, two. So, I don't think that she's quite the idiot you're painting her has.

Obi Wan and Vader recognized each other instantly, from a decent distance. There was no "I wonder what this presence is", they knew it was each other in seconds. As opposed to her, who is treated like she needs a giant glowing sign over Vader's head to recognize him.

Maybe you should explain how, since I've seen all the episodes to date and I'd swear in a court of law that the show is run by people who love what they do and the franchise they're working on.

People that love the show would put out something of quality. They would have real characters, and try to tell stories. There is no way more then a few minutes was spent on the characters in the planning phase and the writing phases, outside of making sure their designs will sell toys. Kind of like He-Man or Transformers.

I follow what you're saying to an extent, and even agree with you in general (however, Star Trek Beyond taught me that even a crap series can produce real gems). But, the question wasn't: "Will Rebels get better?" The question was: "Will Thrawn suck in the show?" Let's stay on topic.

So, we can't answer the question until we see how it actually plays out. He could be very good in it, even if the show itself is still allegedly bad. For what it's worth, I have seen the season three trailer with him in it and, in that, at least, he is the same character from the books, so I do not share your un-optimistic appraisal of the situation. If you've seen the trailer and can point anything out, I'll be willing to reexamine my position.

Well, in all the episodes I watched they did nothing well, had terrible original characters and ruined all the pre-established ones they used (Darth Vader couldn't even kill a failed Padawan and an idiot kid with a blaster sword). You don't get good characters in bad shows, that's not how it works. They're not going to suddenly get one character right.

But they're still going to be pieces of the same, larger story.

In the same way that The Phantom Menace is a piece of the story of The Force Awakens. Technically true because they're in the same canon, but there was no elements of TPM in Episode VII, and TFA would exist exactly as it is without that story existing. I'm sure Zahn's book and the Rebels episodes will be the same.

I take it you're not following the Star Wars EU these days.

I'm following it fairly closely, although I'm a bit pickier with the books I try nowadays. I'm not reading that Leia one that came out a few months ago, or the Rebels book (obviously). I enjoyed Thrawn and Aftermath and I still need to read the Battlefront book and Life Debt.

Umm, no. There's this thing called the "Story Group." It's their job to make sure everything in the franchise lines up the way its supposed to. Zahn's work has to pass their muster (just like it had to pass approval when Zahn wrote the originals all those years ago). So, yeah, Zahn and the "idiots" are going to be trying to make their their stuff compatible, meaning that the Thrawn in the novel will be the same one on the TV show.

I doubt the story group is actually doing anything with Rebels. If they were, they'd have made sure the show didn't ruin all credibility Vader had left as a villain (after the prequels screwed him over so much). I'm pretty sure they only exist to make sure the books don't mess with the movies. If they actually told Zahn to do anything, it certainly wasn't to make him match Rebels. They might make it go the other way. At the very least, the story group were the ones who probably forced rebels to make Thrawn a blue skinned alien with red eyes, because god knows what Rebels would have made him look like if they had free reign. Maybe they'll even force Rebels to make their Thrawn act vaguely like the ones Zahn writes.

Wow. Just wow. We're not even giving Zahn the benefit of the doubt that he might be sincere?

I seem to remember hearing that Steven Spielberg sincerely said that The Phantom Menace was terrific. So, Its not so much a lack of sincerity I'm questioning (although its possibly), its more a lack of objectivity.

Seriously? What the frak has Filoni done to deserve such an assessment?

He "makes" Rebels. Bare minimum he's a lazy jerk who is just cashing his paycheck at this point. At worst he's grown to hate his TCW work and is actively going childish and sabotaging the old work. Another likely scenario is that he's gone fully Lucas and is just terrible at his job, and not actively ruining it. That last option is pretty depressing, although its the only scenario where Filoni isn't the bad guy that I can think of.

I'm going to make a wild guess. I think that you're a Star Wars Legends fan who's not in favor of the reboot. The vibe I'm getting that the show is awful and the people making it hate the franchise, because they're ignoring Legends and replacing it with new stuff. (That's how you're coming across, at least.)

Look, I'm going to be frank. A lot of the statement you've made seem so out of touch with reality to me, that I suspect you're trying to troll. If you'd offer some specifics and reasoning beyond blanket statements and weird accusations, I'd be willing to discuss it (I find these kind of discussions interesting), but as is, you're coming across as a fanboy who won't look at stuff objectively.

I've never trolled in my life. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're a troll. As for the reboot, it was a terrible idea but I still love Episode VII and really enjoyed several of the new books (Tarkin was great, and I liked Aftermath, even if Wendig's style is definitely a bit off). I mean, I'll always prefer the old EU. I'm not actually a big Star Wars fan because of the movies. I like the original trilogy and Episode VII a lot, but the EU made me a Star Wars fan. A good portion of my favorite Star Wars characters are book exclusive (Mara Jade being my favorite Star Wars character ever, and Thrawn my favorite Star Wars villain).

But, that has nothing to do with my liking or disliking Rebels. I love Episode VII even though there is no way the vast majority of my favorite original EU stuff could be brought into the new EU because of what VII established. I hate Rebels because even for a cartoon its childish, overly simple and seems like there was no effort to make it anything other then a colorful way to get young kids to stop bugging their parents for 20 minutes. TCW cartoon had characters and told stories. It didn't always succeed, but it tried. Rebels has Aladdin teaming up with a few cardboard cutouts and a comedy relief droid that Lucas would be ashamed of going off and having adventures that would be tame and boring in a bad old school cartoon.

That was enough to get sick and tired of it, but I started to hate it when it showed that the writers really hated some of the best TCW characters, and so they brought them back as idiots mostly to show off how "cool" space Aladdin is. Even then, I would have just ignored it, but Thrawn is the last straw. It doesn't need to try to ruin things people like, it could have just kept to its original "characters" and the space whales. But, I'm definitely not going to just ignore what it does to a character like Thrawn.

 

[JD]

So I finished Death Troopers last night.
I like the fact that Shreiber actually spent quite a while with the new characters before he brought in Han and Chewie, it was a nice way to keep them from getting overshadowed.
I really like the original characters too, well the likeable ones any, and it seems to me like is important so we care about the characters as they are picked off by the zombies.
I've never really read horror/zombie books before, so I can't really judge it based on those, but as a Star Wars book and a book in general I thought it was really good.
EDIT: According to StarWars.com Star Wars (canon comic series) #26 will start a new arc which will feature a new Yoda story. It will follow a story that Luke is reading in Obi-Wan journal, and the article specifically says that Luke will not know who the story is about. The linked story features an interview with writer Jason Aaron and preview of artwork for the issue.

 

[Ithekro]

Obi Wan and Vader recognized each other instantly, from a decent distance. There was no "I wonder what this presence is", they knew it was each other in seconds. As opposed to her, who is treated like she needs a giant glowing sign over Vader's head to recognize him.

Obi-wan has the benefit of having encountered Darth Vader before after the fall of Anakin Skywalker. So he had been in the presence before. The last time Ahsoka saw Anakin was just before the beginning of Revenge of the Sith. She'd never encountered Darth Vader. The story goes that when Order 66 happens, and she's finally way from the clones trying to kill her on Mandalore, she tried to find Anakin Skywalker in the Force...and he wasn't there anymore (Consumed by Darth Vader). She assumed he'd been killed. When she encounters Darth Vader, she does get the hint of Anakin still in there, but her denial takes over. Her hope keeps her from believing her master could be this Sith Lord. The Anakin Skywalker she knew could never have been this monster working for the Empire. So she has to dig. Find out where this Vader came from. Because she wants so desperately to believe that it can't be Anakin Skywalker, as that would be the most painful thing to her.

When she does encounter him again, she even says that her master could never do what Vader is doing. Vader says Anakin was weak and that he destroyed Anakin. She's still hanging on to her denial because she adored her master, and wants this Vader to be anything but Anakin Skywalker. Absolutely anything. But at the end, she is forced to accept it by seeing his face and hearing his voice. What happens after that...well we'll see.

Basically, she knows from the first encounter, but wishes beyond belief that it was not true. She held her master up as someone who was kind. A good man. Her master. She'd kept that memory of him for the last 15 or more years. Darth Vader breaks her image of her master and she wants to hang on to that.

Well, in all the episodes I watched they did nothing well, had terrible original characters and ruined all the pre-established ones they used (Darth Vader couldn't even kill a failed Padawan and an idiot kid with a blaster sword). You don't get good characters in bad shows, that's not how it works. They're not going to suddenly get one character right.

That actually fits Vader's character as established in the films. When he is looking for bigger prey, always make it look like he is going some damage, and then let them escape so he can track them to their base or get his main prey, than kill them all. He did this in both A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. The only reason Obi-wan didn't get away was because Obi-wan decided he should sacrifice himself, rather than attempt escape. Otherwise Vader's plan was to track the Falcon to the rebel base, which worked perfectly. In The Empire Strikes Back, he had his whole fleet and some bounty hunters tracking down the Falcon so he could torture the known friends of Luke Skywalker so Luke would sense it and come to their rescue. That plan worked perfectly as well. Only Luke's willingness to sacrifice himself by dropping seemingly to his death threw Vader a little. That and not planning on R2-D2 allowing them to escape, though thinking about it might have been why he didn't kill Piet.

In Rebels, he fights two padawans, mostly one handed. He's not putting much effort into the fight and you can see it in how he moves. He's tossing them around pretty easily. He is instilling fear in them. The only thing that slow him down is when the Rebels use teamwork against him, by blowing up the walker and Force shoving Vader under it. It mainly was to show that Vader will not be stopped by such at thing. He then lets them escape (which was his plan) so he can track down their base of operations. That works perfectly. He probably would have destroyed more of the Rebel fleet, if not all of it, had Ahsoka not been there to attract his attention, and Hera managing to pull off a crazy maneuver Anakin would have tried. It only worked because of the Imperial gunners being about as bad as the old Separatist gunners.

After that, the only reason Vader doesn't do more damage is due to the Emperor having other things for him to do. Sending Inquisitors in his place.

As for Ezra. He doesn't seem more powerful than Luke Skywalker, he just has a different skill set. That and Ezra is drawing a bit too much into the Dark Side for his power. "Quicker, easier, more seductive", as Yoda says. It will likely be his undoing. I doubt Ezra will survive to the time of the Battle of Endor. He might not even make it to the Battle of Yavin without falling to the Dark Side.

 

[JD]

Holy crap, I just had a crazy thought, Supreme Leader Snoke could Ezra!

 

[kirk55555]

Basically, she knows from the first encounter, but wishes beyond belief that it was not true. She held her master up as someone who was kind. A good man. Her master. She'd kept that memory of him for the last 15 or more years. Darth Vader breaks her image of her master and she wants to hang on to that.

So, its like I said. They made her an idiot (which, to be fair, was unavoidable because every character on Rebels is an idiot and the writers can't write any other type of character), and then they killed her.

As for Ezra. He doesn't seem more powerful than Luke Skywalker, he just has a different skill set. That and Ezra is drawing a bit too much into the Dark Side for his power. "Quicker, easier, more seductive", as Yoda says. It will likely be his undoing. I doubt Ezra will survive to the time of the Battle of Endor. He might not even make it to the Battle of Yavin without falling to the Dark Side.

If I had to make aguess about Ezra's fate, my theory would be that he will end up becoming one of those stupid "personifications of the force" from those bad TCW episodes. Its as close to a god as he could become, and Rebels treats him like he's the greatest thing the universe has ever known, so becoming a Force god is really the only place they can take him. Death is for mere mortals, Ezra is (according to the Rebels writers) the greatest character in history. He won't die, he'll transcend mortality itself. Anything else would show he's not as super amazing as the show tries to pretend he is.

 

[Xerxes82]

Obi Wan and Vader recognized each other instantly, from a decent distance. There was no "I wonder what this presence is", they knew it was each other in seconds. As opposed to her, who is treated like she needs a giant glowing sign over Vader's head to recognize him.

Ok, but...

Obi-Wan ALREADY KNEW that Vader was Anakin, as he'd battled him before. And Vader knew that Obi-Wan was still alive out there somewhere. And neither one has any reason to be surprised that the other is up to something nearby. Vader being on an Imperial station makes perfect sense. And if probably doesn't surprise Vader that the treacherous Kenobi would be aiding the rebels. So when they encountered each other's Force presence, it was kind of a no-brainer. Neither one was missing important information that would color what they were perceiving in any meaningful way.

Ashoka DOESN"T KNOW that Vader was Anakin, or that Anakin had fallen to the dark side. And if she has any idea Anakin is still alive, it's only in that vague, "didn't feel his light go out in the Force" kind of way. So when she encounters Vader, she feels his very, very familiar aura, but is unwilling to connect the dots. Because Anakin was her hero and he must almost surely be dead, or the Emperor could never have succeeded, right? Notice how, for Vader, the reaction is the same as it is with Obi-Wan. He picks out Ashoka almost immediately, because it's not a surprise to him that she might be still be alive.

It's not fair to compare Ashoka encountering Vader to Obi-Wan RE-encountering Vader in any way. They are VASTLY different situations.

 

[WebLurker]

Rebels had an episode about Space Whales.

I didn't mind that one personally (although I will concede that I would've been more interested if Hera had been the main character, given that she's the one who hated the purrgils and came to an understanding; more exploration over that would've been great).

It regularly has the droid try to kill them (and that is 100% not a joke, the droid legitimately tries to hurt the crew members) and they do nothing because its comic relief.

To be frankly honest, I don't like Chopper much, myself. He does troll everyone a lot (although I only recall one specific incident where a prank got out of hand almost to the point of fatality). For what it's worth, "The Forgotten Droid" did give Chopper some much needed character development.

Aladdin is treated more like the chosen one then Anakin was, and he's more powerful as a 12-13 year old then Luke was in RotJ.

I don't think so. Ezra is only treated as a talented kid who's learning something new. There's no indication that they think he's part of a prophecy or anything. He does get a lot of focus, as does his Jedi progress, but he's a lead character on the show, and the hero of another story.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Ezra has had regular training, whereas Luke got one lesson in A New Hope, self-taught himself a few things (Weapon of a Jedi and Heir to the Jedi novels), before getting an unspecified amount of time (less than a month, for sure?) learning from Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. That's it. So, could Ezra have better control than Luke (circa ROTJ)? It's not the most unreasonable idea in the world (although I'd point out that Luke still seems to be more advanced in ROTJ, IMHO).

Finally, Ezra has been described as being "strong in the Force," as have the Skywalkers (and Force Awakens's Rey). If that's referring to a specific level of potential (and not just: "You are Force-sensitive and so can be a Jedi"), then it would mean that Ezra is in the same league as Luke and Anakin (provided he continues keeping his education up).

That only happens because the really kiddie shows always want to make their viewer stand in character "super cool" so the kids can imagine its them who are super awesome secret jedi, even if its a ridiculous amount of power and the character comes off as way to skilled for his age.

Well, most characters are wish-fulfillment, to some extent. See above for my thoughts on Ezra's skills. On top of that, I think Force Unleashed's Starkiller still claims the title for most overpowered character.

That works with some shows (Dexter was a genius on Dexter's lab, the Kids Next Door were kid spies, and you bought it). But, this is supposedly in canon with the Star Wars movies, and there is no way "super awesome space Aladdin" exists in the same universe as Luke Skywalker.

Again, see above.

Obi Wan and Vader recognized each other instantly, from a decent distance. There was no "I wonder what this presence is", they knew it was each other in seconds. As opposed to her, who is treated like she needs a giant glowing sign over Vader's head to recognize him.

Well, there's the rub. Is that something that every Jedi can do, or is Vader specially skilled in it and Ahsoka is not? (She also seems to be in denial more than not getting it, IMHO).

People that love the show would put out something of quality. They would have real characters, and try to tell stories. There is no way more then a few minutes was spent on the characters in the planning phase and the writing phases, outside of making sure their designs will sell toys. Kind of like He-Man or Transformers.

You might have to direct me to specific failings, since I can testify that all conditions have been met. (I will concede that some characters need more development than others, but it's been there).

Well, in all the episodes I watched they did nothing well, had terrible original characters and ruined all the pre-established ones they used (Darth Vader couldn't even kill a failed Padawan and an idiot kid with a blaster sword). You don't get good characters in bad shows, that's not how it works. They're not going to suddenly get one character right.

Vader only faced them in like, what, two episodes, and kicked their heinies big time. The second time Ahsoka was there, too. I don't see the problem here. As far as the original characters and stories being bad, you and I don't seem to have a common frame of reference.

In the same way that The Phantom Menace is a piece of the story of The Force Awakens. Technically true because they're in the same canon, but there was no elements of TPM in Episode VII, and TFA would exist exactly as it is without that story existing. I'm sure Zahn's book and the Rebels episodes will be the same.

We'll see, but you'd be surprised what gets tied together.

I'm following it fairly closely, although I'm a bit pickier with the books I try nowadays. I'm not reading that Leia one that came out a few months ago, or the Rebels book (obviously). I enjoyed Thrawn and Aftermath and I still need to read the Battlefront book and Life Debt.

Okay.

Wait, I didn't think the Thawn book came out until next year.

I wasn't wild about Aftermath, but I've liked most of the others, too (esp. the TFA tie-ins). Is the Rebels book A New Dawn? (Personally I liked that one. The only TV characters in it are Kanan and Hera. The story is stand-alone and disconnected enough from the TV show you might possibly not mind it, but, as always, your mileage may vary.)

I doubt the story group is actually doing anything with Rebels.

Pablo Hidalgo answers fan questions on the "Rebels Recon" vidcast, and Rebels does fall under the Story Group's purview, so I don't think that's likely.

If they were, they'd have made sure the show didn't ruin all credibility Vader had left as a villain (after the prequels screwed him over so much).

That's not good reasoning. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean they wouldn't like it or think it's okay. I mean, I think Vader was used quite well on the show!

I'm pretty sure they only exist to make sure the books don't mess with the movies.

That's one of their jobs, but not their only one. (The also work with video game designers for accuracy.)

If they actually told Zahn to do anything, it certainly wasn't to make him match Rebels.

Since the TV show episodes came first, and the Story Group's job is to keep consistency across the brand, I'm very sure that Zahn was instructed to match Rebels, assuming that Zahn didn't chose to do that himself. (Remember, Zahn is happy with what the show is doing to his character.)

They might make it go the other way. At the very least, the story group were the ones who probably forced rebels to make Thrawn a blue skinned alien with red eyes, because god knows what Rebels would have made him look like if they had free reign.

I see no reason to assume that they wouldn't make Thrawn look like Thrawn.

Maybe they'll even force Rebels to make their Thrawn act vaguely like the ones Zahn writes.

Judging by all the released footage, they did make him act like the character, and evidently of their own volition.
The interview I cited before indicated that they wanted to be faithful to the character.

I seem to remember hearing that Steven Spielberg sincerely said that The Phantom Menace was terrific. So, Its not so much a lack of sincerity I'm questioning (although its possibly), its more a lack of objectivity.

Well, you could be right. What about your objectivity, though? (Or mine, for that matter?)

He "makes" Rebels. Bare minimum he's a lazy jerk who is just cashing his paycheck at this point.

From all I've seen and read (including stuff Filoni has said himself), Filoni loves his job. And how is he a jerk?

At worst he's grown to hate his TCW work and is actively going childish and sabotaging the old work.

So, he hates what he did on TCW, and is bringing back old characters on Rebels that will draw connections to TCW? You truly have a dizzying intellect.

Another likely scenario is that he's gone fully Lucas and is just terrible at his job, and not actively ruining it. That last option is pretty depressing, although its the only scenario where Filoni isn't the bad guy that I can think of.

Or he's just a guy who's competent at his job, but is making a show you don't like. I find that far more likely.

I've never trolled in my life. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're a troll.

Glad to hear that. I was just saying how you were coming across.

As for the reboot, it was a terrible idea but I still love Episode VII and really enjoyed several of the new books (Tarkin was great, and I liked Aftermath, even if Wendig's style is definitely a bit off).

I think the reboot, in retrospect, was the lesser of two evils (otherwise, we'd be having to slap on retcon after retcon and have whole lists of books that no longer counted, despite finishing books that did, etc. etc.). It's cleaner, less confusing, and just sections off the sandbox a bit instead of knocking down the old sandcastles.

I mean, I'll always prefer the old EU. I'm not actually a big Star Wars fan because of the movies. I like the original trilogy and Episode VII a lot, but the EU made me a Star Wars fan. A good portion of my favorite Star Wars characters are book exclusive (Mara Jade being my favorite Star Wars character ever, and Thrawn my favorite Star Wars villain).

Fair enough.

For me, while I did get into Legends a lot in my teens (around the time that I got to see all the prequels), the movies were always my hook. The reasons I like the tie-ins is because of the movies. I also was not enjoying the post-ROTJ books being made from about Legacy of the Force onwards (the stand-alones set earlier, I did really like, to be fair). So, for me, given that the reboot has given me tie-ins that I'm really enjoying, and that Legends was always kind of secondary to the films for me, I guess I'm not as bothered by the change now than I was when originally announced (although even then, I wanted everything from New Jedi Order on de-canonized).

Agree that Force Awakens was awesome. Mara is a favorite character of mine, too (although there are some characters I like more, on both sides of continuity). I did like Thrawn as an antagonist (really like Zahn's books), although I think he was kind of a "less is more" character that didn't work quite as well as he did outside the original story (IMHO).

But, that has nothing to do with my liking or disliking Rebels. I love Episode VII even though there is no way the vast majority of my favorite original EU stuff could be brought into the new EU because of what VII established. I hate Rebels because even for a cartoon its childish, overly simple and seems like there was no effort to make it anything other then a colorful way to get young kids to stop bugging their parents for 20 minutes. TCW cartoon had characters and told stories. It didn't always succeed, but it tried. Rebels has Aladdin teaming up with a few cardboard cutouts and a comedy relief droid that Lucas would be ashamed of going off and having adventures that would be tame and boring in a bad old school cartoon.

When comparing Rebels to TCW, are you doing it to the series as a whole, or the first couple seasons? I will agree that TCW's later years did do better stuff than Rebels has yet, but that's not very fair, since TCW had to build up to that and get over it's own problems first. I think a fair comparison would be Rebels first two seasons to TCW's first two seasons. How do those stack up?

That was enough to get sick and tired of it, but I started to hate it when it showed that the writers really hated some of the best TCW characters, and so they brought them back as idiots mostly to show off how "cool" space Aladdin is. Even then, I would have just ignored it, but Thrawn is the last straw. It doesn't need to try to ruin things people like, it could have just kept to its original "characters" and the space whales. But, I'm definitely not going to just ignore what it does to a character like Thrawn.

When the actual Thrawn episodes come out, I'll be curious to hear if you think that you were right or if the show surprised you.

Holy crap, I just had a crazy thought, Supreme Leader Snoke could Ezra!

I don't think so. We know that Snoke was alive during the Clone Wars and witnesses the rise and fall the Empire (per the canonical Force Awakens novelization). Ezra was born after the Empire was founded and the Clone Wars were over (per the "Empire Day" episode).

 

[Mr Light]

I *LOVED* Death Troopers. Completely blew me away. It's so incredibly creepy and unnerving. I went out and read the other books that guy wrote, because I was so amazed by his style. I would say Death Troopers is my favorite of any of his books. Maul Lockdown was really good too.

 

[kirk55555]

To be frankly honest, I don't like Chopper much, myself. He does troll everyone a lot (although I only recall one specific incident where a prank got out of hand almost to the point of fatality). For what it's worth, "The Forgotten Droid" did give Chopper some much needed character development.

Chopper is just weird. I can see what they were trying to do with the other characters, even if I think they failed to make them more then cardboard cut outs. But Chopper is a bit confusing. I never considered homicidal jerk to be a comedy relief thing, so Chopper really just came off as unpleasant to me. He is far from the shows biggest problem, but he's easily the character I hate the most.

I don't think so. Ezra is only treated as a talented kid who's learning something new. There's no indication that they think he's part of a prophecy or anything. He does get a lot of focus, as does his Jedi progress, but he's a lead character on the show, and the hero of another story.

He's a pretty one dimensional, completely generic kid hero, but I get that, being the "main" character, he gets the focus. To be fair, if he wasn't shoved in the viewers face so much he wouldn't be nearly as bad as he is, I'd say Fake Mandalorian Woman and Alien Steve Blum are probably the worst non-Chopper characters. Still, Space Aladdin is always the focus, and its always showing how "awesome" he is, so he ends up being more annoying even when he's not quite as bad a character as some of the others.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Ezra has had regular training, whereas Luke got one lesson in A New Hope, self-taught himself a few things (Weapon of a Jedi and Heir to the Jedi novels), before getting an unspecified amount of time (less than a month, for sure?) learning from Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. That's it. So, could Ezra have better control than Luke (circa ROTJ)? It's not the most unreasonable idea in the world (although I'd point out that Luke still seems to be more advanced in ROTJ, IMHO).

Finally, Ezra has been described as being "strong in the Force," as have the Skywalkers (and Force Awakens's Rey). If that's referring to a specific level of potential (and not just: "You are Force-sensitive and so can be a Jedi"), then it would mean that Ezra is in the same league as Luke and Anakin (provided he continues keeping his education up).

Anakin had the (and I hate to mention this horrible plot point) highest midichlorian count of any recorded living being. Luke probably got a bit of that himself. Ezra is just some random kid, he shouldn't hae anywhere near the natural talent of a Skywalker.

Well, most characters are wish-fulfillment, to some extent. See above for my thoughts on Ezra's skills. On top of that, I think Force Unleashed's Starkiller still claims the title for most overpowered character.

To be fair, Starkiller was only in two video games and one tie in book, and I don't think he was ever mentioned outside of those contexts. Ezra is everywhere on Rebels, and Rebels is treated like a big deal to the SW Universe. They're not really comparable.

Well, there's the rub. Is that something that every Jedi can do, or is Vader specially skilled in it and Ahsoka is not? (She also seems to be in denial more than not getting it, IMHO).

I'm pretty sure sensing people, especially other jedi, is a universal jedi power. Its one of their main things really, right up there with the mind trick, the force pull/push, etc.

You might have to direct me to specific failings, since I can testify that all conditions have been met. (I will concede that some characters need more development than others, but it's been there).

Not one character developed at all in the 20+ episodes I watched. Ahsoka and the clones devolved, but that's the opposite of developed. To be fair, the characters on Rebels were ompletely one dimensional, they really couldn't develop into anything.

Vader only faced them in like, what, two episodes, and kicked their heinies big time. The second time Ahsoka was there, too. I don't see the problem here. As far as the original characters and stories being bad, you and I don't seem to have a common frame of reference.

If Vader didn't kill them, and he didn't, then that's a complete story failure and ruins Vader. I don't buy that he regularly lets people go just to follow them. If they used that excuse in Rebels, that just shows they turned Vader into a generic saturday morning cartoon villain on Rebels.

Wait, I didn't think the Thawn book came out until next year.

I meant Tarkin, it was just a mistype.

I wasn't wild about Aftermath, but I've liked most of the others, too (esp. the TFA tie-ins). Is the Rebels book A New Dawn? (Personally I liked that one. The only TV characters in it are Kanan and Hera. The story is stand-alone and disconnected enough from the TV show you might possibly not mind it, but, as always, your mileage may vary.)

I have to much to read to try to struggle through reading about two lifeless cardboard cut outs in a novel length "story". They're bland, boring and (like every Rebels character) one dimensional. A book won't fix that, since its the core of what they are.

Since the TV show episodes came first, and the Story Group's job is to keep consistency across the brand, I'm very sure that Zahn was instructed to match Rebels, assuming that Zahn didn't chose to do that himself. (Remember, Zahn is happy with what the show is doing to his character.)

There is no way they put Zahn under Filoni. That's like putting Spoielberg under Michael Bay. That said, if his book was obviously ruined by Filoni's interference (or interference on Filoni's behalf), that will be the end of me giving their books any money.

I see no reason to assume that they wouldn't make Thrawn look like Thrawn.

Its Rebels, and Filoni. I was urprised they cared enough to remember that Ashoka was a togruta. I'd be shocked if anyone working on Rebels, from Filoni down to character designers, even bothered to check what Thrawn looked like on their own. I'd bet the story group made them check what he looked like as a condition of letting them use the character.

Judging by all the released footage, they did make him act like the character, and evidently of their own volition.
The interview I cited before indicated that they wanted to be faithful to the character.

The interview was standard PR fluff, not worth the time it took someone to type out. The trailer showed a blue guy with red eyes named thrawn, and that's it. He certainly wasn't acting like Thrawn from what I saw, although to be fair he wasn't doing much of anything. At best, he'll be a standard kiddie cartoon "genius", and they might give him a few surface things like an enjoyment of art. Then, he'll go fight the Rebels characters with some generic evil laugh and a lame scheme of the week that they'll inevitably foil, at which point he'll shake his fist and swear revenge. That's basically all the villains in Rebels ever do.

Well, you could be right. What about your objectivity, though? (Or mine, for that matter?)

I'm not trying to convince people to spend time and/or money to watch a product.

From all I've seen and read (including stuff Filoni has said himself), Filoni loves his job. And how is he a jerk?

Filoni lies, he would never say anything bad about his job. As for "how is he a jerk", he makes a terrible cartoon, screws around with the SW universe for no reason and seems to get perverse joy in ruining great SW characters, whether they're from TCW or books. He could easily just use original characters, but he obviously likes ruining other stuff, or at least likes to make some cheap money/publicity by taking the names of SW characters and sticking them on lame cartoon cliches.

So, he hates what he did on TCW, and is bringing back old characters on Rebels that will draw connections to TCW? You truly have a dizzying intellect.

He knew he could get a bit of publicity by using TCW characters. He then made them idiots (to show how much better the Rebels characters were), and killed the most popular one off (presumably as a giant middle finger to fans of TCW).

Or he's just a guy who's competent at his job, but is making a show you don't like. I find that far more likely.

He's about as far away from competent as its possible to get nowadays. he has the laziest, most simplistic cartoon aimed at kids over the age of three that has aired on TV in decades. That's a mix of incompetence and not giving a crap.

When comparing Rebels to TCW, are you doing it to the series as a whole, or the first couple seasons? I will agree that TCW's later years did do better stuff than Rebels has yet, but that's not very fair, since TCW had to build up to that and get over it's own problems first. I think a fair comparison would be Rebels first two seasons to TCW's first two seasons. How do those stack up?

TCW first two seasons weren't great, but they look like the best television ever produced compared to Rebels.

When the actual Thrawn episodes come out, I'll be curious to hear if you think that you were right or if the show surprised you.

I doubt I'll watch. I'm a generally a sucker for terrible shows/movies if I like the source material (I've watched all the Zach Snyder DC films). But, I can't stand to see Thrawn ruined. I sat through a bit of Vader and Ahsoka being ruined, and I really don't think I could stand Thrawn. I've seen enough bad cartoons to know exactly how they'll do him, anyway.

I could watch any random Captain Planet episode and get the same experience of a Rebels "Thrawn" episode, without being infuriated at seeing the metaphorical corpse of the best SW villain being dragged through the mud by the worst writers working on mainstream cartoons today and if I wanted Star Wars so bad its almost physically painful, I'll watch Attack of the Clones and at least get to see Macgreggor being awesome.

 

[Ithekro]

If Vader didn't kill them, and he didn't, then that's a complete story failure and ruins Vader. I don't buy that he regularly lets people go just to follow them. If they used that excuse in Rebels, that just shows they turned Vader into a generic saturday morning cartoon villain on Rebels.

It does not. Vader does not always kill everyone. We've seen first hand in the films that he killed as many Imperials for their failures than he killed Rebels. He personally killed two rebels (Captain Antilles and Obi-wan Kenobi) in the original trilogy. He then killed Admiral Ozzel and Captain Needa. He killed the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. That's it. Five people. Everyone else he used to get to his objectives via fear, false hope, or torture. He does the same in Rebels. At worst, Vader is treated like a old 1930s series villain, since that is one of the original inspiration for Star Wars. And that seems to be more the Agent and Inquisitors than Vader.

As for Zhan, Thrawn, and Filoni, Filoni specifically mentions as early as the first season of TCW that he had inspiration from Zhan's book "The Heir to the Empire" to pull off a tactic by Ashoka during the Battle of Ryloth. A tactic used by Thrawn to great effect in the first chapter of the novel. I've seen nothing put into either show that has been disrespectful of Star Wars, that wasn't a direct change by George Lucas (that would specifically be the Madalorians) and thus is as close to word of god as you get with the fictional universe.

Credit is given where it is due by the production staff of Rebels and TCWs.

So, its like I said. They made her an idiot (which, to be fair, was unavoidable because every character on Rebels is an idiot and the writers can't write any other type of character), and then they killed her.

I would say they made her, for lack of a better term, human.