Star Trek XI has failed... Trek Lit

[rahullak]

I was thinking exactly the same as above when I saw the title "Star Trek XI has failed Trek Lit".

In the 24th century Abramsverse (2387), the Romulans have adapted Borg technology into their weapons systems. But we all know from the Destiny series (2381) that All of the Borg technology throughout the galaxy was turned to dust by the Caeliar (except the ones that were unpowered, but even these turned to dust when powered later). We also know that there are two Romulan empires: The Romulan Star and the Imperial Romulan State, which weren't mentioned or even considered in Abramsverse. There was no mention even of the Typhon pact and the fact that the Romulan Star Empire was a part of it. Picard becoming an Ambassador and leaving Starfleet just doesn't gel with what we know of his character (turned down Admiral's position 3 times), even if he now has a family. The one good thing literature-wise was the return of Data, but that was to be expected anyway.

So if we are to accept multiple parallel timelines co-existing "harmoniously" in Trek-literature, will we then have stories as to how Picard became an Ambassador, how Data returned, and all the other possible stories from 2379 - 2387 (post-Nemesis) ?

Or perhaps the time-ship Relativity could make a most timely appearance and "set the record straight" as it were?

 

[rahullak]

Oh I almost forgot.... what about the machinations of Section 31 and its ability to time-travel?

Do the Authors here have any new delicious ideas for us to rapaciously consume?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I was thinking exactly the same as above when I saw the title "Star Trek XI has failed Trek Lit".

In the 24th century Abramsverse (2387), the Romulans have adapted Borg technology into their weapons systems. But we all know from the Destiny series (2381) that All of the Borg technology throughout the galaxy was turned to dust by the Caeliar (except the ones that were unpowered, but even these turned to dust when powered later). We also know that there are two Romulan empires: The Romulan Star and the Imperial Romulan State, which weren't mentioned or even considered in Abramsverse. There was no mention even of the Typhon pact and the fact that the Romulan Star Empire was a part of it. Picard becoming an Ambassador and leaving Starfleet just doesn't gel with what we know of his character (turned down Admiral's position 3 times), even if he now has a family. The one good thing literature-wise was the return of Data, but that was to be expected anyway.

So if we are to accept multiple parallel timelines co-existing "harmoniously" in Trek-literature, will we then have stories as to how Picard became an Ambassador, how Data returned, and all the other possible stories from 2379 - 2387 (post-Nemesis) ?

Or perhaps the time-ship Relativity could make a most timely appearance and "set the record straight" as it were?

Picard as an Ambassador worked for me, he's always been a diplomat at heart. Geordi's new role worked too. Anyone else, not really. I did not enjoy Countdown at all, as I thought the novel's take on the post-Destiny timeline has been far more imaginative and interesting. I've never been a fan of blowing up planets, it's lazy. Romulus is an integral part of the Star Trek universe, even more so the literary universe. One of the reasons the Destiny trilogy was so good is that when these planets were hit it meant something. I was left thinking, "oh, gods, the Andorian capital is gone. Therin Park, the Parliament Andoria, the Shran Monument, the Plaza of Freedom, it's all gone..." It was shocking, but in a good way, particularly as the novels have treated all this destruction with the dignity it deserves. Romulus blowing up- that's the whole planet, "oh, gods, ALL OF ROMULUS is gone". But because Countdown isn't on the same track as the novels, it was unable to give any sense of the dignity and horror necessary for the plotline of "Romulus-blows-up" to work. As a novel-verse fan, who knows Romulus in a lot more depth than the TV-only or TV-and comics fan, I felt cheated. And, as mentioned already, Romulus having to blow up will be a blow after the writers of the novels have set up such interesting political relationships between the various branches of Vulcanoids and their neighbours.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Yes, and what was that "the Romulans have Borg tech to outfit their vessels" plot? Were the Romulans of Countdown preparing for war? Suddenly they are supposedly so in advance of the Federation or Klingons that Nero can use a mining ship to destroy entire fleets of Klingon military craft! What?

Thank you for reminding me of another inconsistancy with the novels. Hopefully this means that, even though Romulus must explode (it's the C word now), maybe the authors can at least write us a more satisfying version than we got in the comic.

 

[Christopher]

In the 24th century Abramsverse (2387), the Romulans have adapted Borg technology into their weapons systems.

No, just in Countdown, a non-canonical tie-in to the Abrams film.

So if we are to accept multiple parallel timelines co-existing "harmoniously" in Trek-literature, will we then have stories as to how Picard became an Ambassador, how Data returned, and all the other possible stories from 2379 - 2387 (post-Nemesis) ?

It seems to me that if you accept multiple parallel timelines co-existing, then there's no need to reconcile the books' timeline with the events of Countdown.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

In the 24th century Abramsverse (2387), the Romulans have adapted Borg technology into their weapons systems. But we all know from the Destiny series (2381) that All of the Borg technology throughout the galaxy was turned to dust by the Caeliar (except the ones that were unpowered, but even these turned to dust when powered later).

I don't think it's impossible that Borg technology could have been reverse engineered. The Romulans, of all the Alpha Quadrant races, have the longest experience in battling the Borg, and it's not unreasonable to assume that the Romulans would have tried to figure out what make the Borg "tick."

The genuine article the Caeliar trashed. But the knowledge of Borg technology, what it did, and how it worked wouldn't magically disappear. The schematics, the studies of nanoprobes, and the like -- these would still exist.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

In the 24th century Abramsverse (2387), the Romulans have adapted Borg technology into their weapons systems. But we all know from the Destiny series (2381) that All of the Borg technology throughout the galaxy was turned to dust by the Caeliar (except the ones that were unpowered, but even these turned to dust when powered later).

I don't think it's impossible that Borg technology could have been reverse engineered. The Romulans, of all the Alpha Quadrant races, have the longest experience in battling the Borg, and it's not unreasonable to assume that the Romulans would have tried to figure out what make the Borg "tick."

The genuine article the Caeliar trashed. But the knowledge of Borg technology, what it did, and how it worked wouldn't magically disappear. The schematics, the studies of nanoprobes, and the like -- these would still exist.

That is certainly reasonable, but I find it very jarring that the Romulans of Countdown appear to have leapt forward so significantly, converting mining vessels to warships capable of wiping out Klingon military fleets. What were they going to do with it? If they were that advanced, why not conquer the Klingons anyway? I fear this may be a flimsy attempt to justify the destruction of Romulus, "phee, we dodged a bullet, lucky Romulus blew before they unleashed their Borg-fleet on us.

I also don't find it feasible that Borg regenerative technology could be used without the vessel installing it being assimilated. We know Countdown does not acknowledge Destiny, so if the Borg are still active in that timeline, why isn't the Nerada a Borg ship? If we are reconciling with Destiny, just as an intellectual exercise , given the Caeliar's little trick how did the Romulans get that regenerative quality functioning from the debris left behind?

 

[Sci]

I would echo the post above. The current line of books, from around the year 2000 on, have been fantastic. One of the gripes I had with the new film was the fact that Romulus is destroyed. Now, the fascinating Romulan Star Empire- Imperial Romulan State- Watraii- Reman colonies- Tal'aura- Donatra- Vulcan- Typhon Pact web is going to have to be cleaved to pieces when Romulus gratitiously explodes in order to give Nero something to be villainous over.

Hey, I see no reason to think that the destruction of Romulus can't play a fascinating role in the ongoing Romulan Star Empire-Imperial Romulan State drama.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I would echo the post above. The current line of books, from around the year 2000 on, have been fantastic. One of the gripes I had with the new film was the fact that Romulus is destroyed. Now, the fascinating Romulan Star Empire- Imperial Romulan State- Watraii- Reman colonies- Tal'aura- Donatra- Vulcan- Typhon Pact web is going to have to be cleaved to pieces when Romulus gratitiously explodes in order to give Nero something to be villainous over.

Hey, I see no reason to think that the destruction of Romulus can't play a fascinating role in the ongoing Romulan Star Empire-Imperial Romulan State drama.

You are correct; I really do agree. in fact, given that (sadly) Romulus must explode, I hope the novels can make something out of it in a way Countdown didn't, or couldn't. It's just a shame the work the authors have already done has to be so unceremoniously uncut.

 

[Sci]

I would echo the post above. The current line of books, from around the year 2000 on, have been fantastic. One of the gripes I had with the new film was the fact that Romulus is destroyed. Now, the fascinating Romulan Star Empire- Imperial Romulan State- Watraii- Reman colonies- Tal'aura- Donatra- Vulcan- Typhon Pact web is going to have to be cleaved to pieces when Romulus gratitiously explodes in order to give Nero something to be villainous over.

Hey, I see no reason to think that the destruction of Romulus can't play a fascinating role in the ongoing Romulan Star Empire-Imperial Romulan State drama.

You are correct; I really do agree. in fact, given that (sadly) Romulus must explode, I hope the novels can make something out of it in a way Countdown didn't, or couldn't. It's just a shame the work the authors have already done has to be so unceremoniously uncut.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unceremoniously uncut."

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The destruction of Romulus really did irritate me, though. It was clever of the filmakers to set the new film in a new timeline; it fits what we know about the Trek-verse, it allows them to change whatever they want and be creative without stepping on the toes of old fans because, hey, the prime timeline still exists. But they then immediately made this clever move pointless by having the event that motivates the time travel/new universe being a major change in the prime timeline- the destruction of a major planet for the sake of making the villain angry and murderous.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Hey, I see no reason to think that the destruction of Romulus can't play a fascinating role in the ongoing Romulan Star Empire-Imperial Romulan State drama.

You are correct; I really do agree. in fact, given that (sadly) Romulus must explode, I hope the novels can make something out of it in a way Countdown didn't, or couldn't. It's just a shame the work the authors have already done has to be so unceremoniously uncut.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unceremoniously uncut."

Apologies, I just meant I was really enjoying the web of relationships they had going on; the two Romulan states, the Vulcans, the Remans, the Watraii, and now all of these ties and relationships will be damaged as a key component of the web, Romulus, will have to go. I know that's the price you pay when novels are non-canon, but it feels like the story has been lessened somehow. I hope that makes some kind of sense...

 

[Sci]

You are correct; I really do agree. in fact, given that (sadly) Romulus must explode, I hope the novels can make something out of it in a way Countdown didn't, or couldn't. It's just a shame the work the authors have already done has to be so unceremoniously uncut.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unceremoniously uncut."

Apologies, I just meant I was really enjoying the web of relationships they had going on; the two Romulan states, the Vulcans, the Remans, the Watraii, and now all of these ties and relationships will be damaged as a key component of the web, Romulus, will have to go. I know that's the price you pay when novels are non-canon, but it feels like the story has been lessened somehow. I hope that makes some kind of sense...

*shrugs* I mean, they're going to have to show a major change in that web, sure, but that's not the same thing as the web just disappearing or being cut entirely. And it's a much lesser change than we could have had.

The authors will roll with the punches and make something brilliant out of it, I'm sure.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I'm not sure what you mean by "unceremoniously uncut."

Apologies, I just meant I was really enjoying the web of relationships they had going on; the two Romulan states, the Vulcans, the Remans, the Watraii, and now all of these ties and relationships will be damaged as a key component of the web, Romulus, will have to go. I know that's the price you pay when novels are non-canon, but it feels like the story has been lessened somehow. I hope that makes some kind of sense...

*shrugs* I mean, they're going to have to show a major change in that web, sure, but that's not the same thing as the web just disappearing or being cut entirely. And it's a much lesser change than we could have had.

The authors will roll with the punches and make something brilliant out of it, I'm sure.

You're probably right, I certainly trust the writers of the current line of Trek books. I'm probably over-reacting, but I needed to get these concerns off my chest a bit

 

[rahullak]

In the 24th century Abramsverse (2387), the Romulans have adapted Borg technology into their weapons systems.

No, just in Countdown, a non-canonical tie-in to the Abrams film.

So if we are to accept multiple parallel timelines co-existing "harmoniously" in Trek-literature, will we then have stories as to how Picard became an Ambassador, how Data returned, and all the other possible stories from 2379 - 2387 (post-Nemesis) ?

It seems to me that if you accept multiple parallel timelines co-existing, then there's no need to reconcile the books' timeline with the events of Countdown.

That is so obvious it needn't even be pointed out.

Sorry for not being explicit earlier. My question: Will the current novels' timeline continue as if the events in CountDown don't matter, or will there be attempts at reconciliation, even if partially? Or will we have a completely new novel timeline (read non-reconciliatory) that would exist in parallel with the current novels' timeline, one that would explain what was mentioned above in the quote (2379 - 2387 post-nemesis)? Or is no one going to bother with all this timeline complications and just write entertaining stories?

Does Pocket books have a take on this right now? Do the authors?

Also, since we accept the new film as canon, does it really make sense to disregard some of the events of Countdown as non-canon? After all, Romulus has to blow up in 2387 (in some ways because of Spock), and Nero has to become the arch villain upon a quest of vengeance. Why disregard certain aspects (such as Romulan-Borg technology) and not others?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Apologies, I just meant I was really enjoying the web of relationships they had going on; the two Romulan states, the Vulcans, the Remans, the Watraii, and now all of these ties and relationships will be damaged as a key component of the web, Romulus, will have to go. I know that's the price you pay when novels are non-canon, but it feels like the story has been lessened somehow. I hope that makes some kind of sense...

*shrugs* I mean, they're going to have to show a major change in that web, sure, but that's not the same thing as the web just disappearing or being cut entirely. And it's a much lesser change than we could have had.

The authors will roll with the punches and make something brilliant out of it, I'm sure.

You're probably right, I certainly trust the writers of the current line of Trek books. I'm probably over-reacting, but I needed to get these concerns off my chest a bit

Plus we still have 6 years of book time to catch up to the period Countdown is in.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

*shrugs* I mean, they're going to have to show a major change in that web, sure, but that's not the same thing as the web just disappearing or being cut entirely. And it's a much lesser change than we could have had.

The authors will roll with the punches and make something brilliant out of it, I'm sure.

You're probably right, I certainly trust the writers of the current line of Trek books. I'm probably over-reacting, but I needed to get these concerns off my chest a bit

Plus we still have 6 years of book time to catch up to the period Countdown is in.

True, that will also help.

 

[Christopher]

Apologies, I just meant I was really enjoying the web of relationships they had going on; the two Romulan states, the Vulcans, the Remans, the Watraii, and now all of these ties and relationships will be damaged as a key component of the web, Romulus, will have to go. I know that's the price you pay when novels are non-canon, but it feels like the story has been lessened somehow. I hope that makes some kind of sense...

The Romulan Empire doesn't consist solely of the planet Romulus. That's the mistake ST VI made, treating a threat to Qo'noS as an existential threat to the entire Klingon Empire. For that matter, the new movie had the same problem -- in Spock's mindmeld narration, he says Nero introduced himself as "last of the Romulan Empire." But there's no reason the books have to limit themselves to the ravings of a madman. The Romulan Star Empire no doubt has many people and assets that were not located on the planet Romulus. What would happen if America lost Washington, DC? We'd be badly hurt and demoralized, but we wouldn't cease to exist as a nation.

Of course, one thing that should not be ignored is that we're not dealing with only one planet here. The star that went supernova was not the sun of Romulus itself, but one that was some distance away (yet still inexplicably able to have effects that propagated faster than light). Logically, every world within a given radius of the supernova would have been sterilized by the radiation (I dismiss the shot of Romulus' disintegration and Nero's line about it being ripped apart as poetic license). So depending on where the supernova star was located, it could've caused much more widespread damage to the Romulan Star Empire than the loss of Romulus alone.

My question: Will the current novels' timeline continue as if the events in CountDown don't matter, or will there be attempts at reconciliation, even if partially? Or will we have a completely new novel timeline (read non-reconciliatory) that would exist in parallel with the current novels' timeline, one that would explain what was mentioned above in the quote (2379 - 2387 post-nemesis)? Or is no one going to bother with all this timeline complications and just write entertaining stories?

Does Pocket books have a take on this right now? Do the authors?

My take is that there's no need to worry about it for several years at least, since the books are still in 2381. Pocket isn't obligated to follow one comic book story from a different publisher, so my guess would be that the novel continuity won't conform to Countdown. But if someone came up with a worthwhile story that were based on ideas from Countdown, there'd be no reason not to tell it. Bottom line, nothing's been decided. The future literally isn't written yet.

Also, since we accept the new film as canon, does it really make sense to disregard some of the events of Countdown as non-canon? After all, Romulus has to blow up in 2387 (in some ways because of Spock), and Nero has to become the arch villain upon a quest of vengeance. Why disregard certain aspects (such as Romulan-Borg technology) and not others?

Those things that were stated onscreen in the movie itself -- namely the destruction of Romulus and Spock's disappearance into the past -- are, by definition, canonical. Remember that Countdown did not create the story of Romulus's destruction. Countdown was not written until months after the film was made. Its story took ideas that already existed in the movie, specifically the events described in Spock's mindmeld sequence with Kirk, and expanded on them. Those expansions are not canonical, because they're not part of the movie.

Let me make an analogy. In the first chapter of The Buried Age, I depict the final battle of the Stargazer. That chapter depicts an event that was established in canon in TNG: "The Battle," and it contains specific characters and lines of dialogue from "The Battle." Those elements are canonical because they were onscreen. But I also expanded on those events, adding further characters, dialogue, and information that I made up. Those parts of the chapter are not canonical, because they're only in the book. Just because a tie-in includes elements from a canonical work, that doesn't mean the whole tie-in is canonical.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Apologies, I just meant I was really enjoying the web of relationships they had going on; the two Romulan states, the Vulcans, the Remans, the Watraii, and now all of these ties and relationships will be damaged as a key component of the web, Romulus, will have to go. I know that's the price you pay when novels are non-canon, but it feels like the story has been lessened somehow. I hope that makes some kind of sense...

The Romulan Empire doesn't consist solely of the planet Romulus. That's the mistake ST VI made, treating a threat to Qo'noS as an existential threat to the entire Klingon Empire. For that matter, the new movie had the same problem -- in Spock's mindmeld narration, he says Nero introduced himself as "last of the Romulan Empire." But there's no reason the books have to limit themselves to the ravings of a madman. The Romulan Star Empire no doubt has many people and assets that were not located on the planet Romulus. What would happen if America lost Washington, DC? We'd be badly hurt and demoralized, but we wouldn't cease to exist as a nation.

Of course, one thing that should not be ignored is that we're not dealing with only one planet here. The star that went supernova was not the sun of Romulus itself, but one that was some distance away (yet still inexplicably able to have effects that propagated faster than light). Logically, every world within a given radius of the supernova would have been sterilized by the radiation (I dismiss the shot of Romulus' disintegration and Nero's line about it being ripped apart as poetic license). So depending on where the supernova star was located, it could've caused much more widespread damage to the Romulan Star Empire than the loss of Romulus alone.

Of course, thanks for reminding me, Christopher. It's especially foolish of me to forget that, as I myself have been annoyed by some writer's seeming to suggest one planet is the key to an entire starfaring nation. As you say, however, that's a plotline both Countdown and the film missed; they forgot the Star Empire bit in Romulan Star Empire

Oops, sorry Christopher, not too good at this quoting yet

Fixed your quote for you -- Rosalind

Thank you, Rosalind!

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I know this has been discussed to death here already, but the new film made the same mistake with Vulcan, didn't it? All the colonies, outposts, embassies, tourists, offworld scientists, beaurocrats, officers; all seemed to be forgotten in favour of "Vulcan blows, Vulcans all dead"- style logic. Or illogic. No wonder Vulcan imploded...