Star Trek VI. the stupidity of Starfleet and Spock for choosing Kirk to meet with Gorkon

[urrutiap]

Why would both Starfleet and Spock choose Kirk of all people to meet up with Gorkon?

Spock especially since klingons did kill David back in Star Trek III.

Even Kirk was shocked/surprised that Spock would just vouch for Kirk. For what exactly?

and what the hell was Sulu and his crew doing anyway where they were out in space anyway when Praxis sort of blew up?

 

[urbandefault]

1a. "Only Nixon could go to China."
1b. Spock was a little busy while David was getting himself stabbed to death.
1c. See 1a.
2. On assignment, cataloging gaseous anomalies.

Have you seen the movie?

 

[David cgc]

2. On assignment, cataloging gaseous anomalies.

A perfectly innocent reason to spend three years loitering near Klingon space in Starfleet's newest class of ship with a bunch of top-of-the-line sensors.

 

[urrutiap]

yes I have seen Star Trek VI a few times years ago and watching it again tonight.

it still bugs me that Spock and the Starfleet people at the council meeting automatically think Kirk would be ok with going to meet Gorkon. Sure never mind that klingsons were involved with the death of David by the way.

Plus why didnt Sulu and the rest of the crew of Excelsior like warp speed away from the shock wave instead of sitting there while getting hit by the shock wave from Praxis?

1a. "Only Nixon could go to China."
1b. Spock was a little busy while David was getting himself stabbed to death.
1c. See 1a.
2. On assignment, cataloging gaseous anomalies.

Have you seen the movie?

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well, being an officer in Starfleet means you go where the brass sends you. Kirk didn't have to be okay with it, he just had to follow orders.

And think about it....it's a perfect idea. You pick the guy who has the chip on his shoulder, who has battled Klingons for decades, the one person the Klingons have a problem with ("there will be no peace....") to go out and extend that olive branch the C&C mentioned. If Kirk can do it, anyone can.

Now, if the conspirators didn't take advantage of that, then Kirk would have just done what he was told. Maybe not even with such bad manners because that was orchestrated by Velaris getting everyone shitfaced and General Chang making comments to provoke.

Barring manipulation, Kirk would have met Gorkon, invited his people aboard, suffered through the hand shaking and escorted them to the table a hero.

So yep, he was the perfect choice. Both for peace and for those who wanted a plausible scapegoat. I have a lot of problems with this movie, but this isn't one of them

 

[Vger23]

I agree that it’s absolutely ridiculous. Even when I was a teenager and saw the movie for the first time, I remember thinking to myself that it was insane to send a ship captain in the military to rendezvous with the head of state of your greatest enemy, who you are about to negotiate a historic and unprecedented peace with.

Even if you send Kirk on that mission because of his proven military prowess, there is no way you don’t staff the Enterprise with an entire brigade of Federation diplomatic personnel, ambassadors and specialists. In TOS, for infinitely less sensitive situations, they always had a Federation diplomat there to run that part of the mission.

It’s one of the many reasons I don’t love TUC as much as most people do. The foundational premise that they’d send Kirk out there alone with no diplomatic back-up or oversight is completely inane.

Even the script seems to acknowledge this as being under-baked stupidity, as Kirk himself protests that “a full ambassador would be better equipped…”

 

[Ssosmcin]

At the same time it was alluded to that Sarek was involved. The Enterprise was just the escort where they would lead the Klingons through Federation space where the ambassador would take over. From Spock's reaction, Kirk wasn't even expected to have them over for dinner. He was just the escort, but one the C&C felt was one that wouldn't be fired on. Kirk took it upon himself to invite them aboard. The plot would've worked just as well without the dinner. However, he unknowingly played into the plot.

Kirk was always the frontline guy. Even in the original series, he was sometimes tasked with doing diplomatic jobs. Capella, Organia, Gideon and so on. It was certainly within his wheelhouse. Fine, in the real world I might not make much sense, but within Trek, it's another day at work. Usually the ambassadors were only there to make Kirks job more difficult. Not to make the treaty negotiations go more smoothly.

 

[Bad Robot]

It's not really anymore problematic than ST's other movies. Kirk's "honorable" demotion doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would have a real-world military precedent, and it's kind of refreshing that Plummer doubts there was much of anything honorable about it (especially since Meyer at the least co-wrote both movies).

 

[DarKush]

I don't think it was a stupid decision. It was logical from a diplomatic sense, as has been alluded to by Ssosmcin to have Kirk, a figure that evokes anger (and perhaps fascination) among the Klingons while also being trusted by even the hardliners in Starfleet (like Admiral Cartwright). I could see even the hardliners accepting that Kirk could handle whatever tricks the Klingons might have up their sleeves if things went left (and as we see, Kirk was the perfect patsy for the conspirators to use owing to the murder of his son, and his years of enmity with the Klingons).

I also found it an emotional decision, coming from a place of love and concern on Spock's part. Spock saw Kirk was hurting, that he was mired in grief, and in his own way he was trying to push Kirk past that grief by having him confront it and see that not all Klingons were like Kruge. That doesn't quite jibe with the lack of anger he had for Koord just in Star Trek V (though I could rationalize that Koord was banished so Kirk might have been more amenable to him).

 

[DarKush]

I agree that it’s absolutely ridiculous. Even when I was a teenager and saw the movie for the first time, I remember thinking to myself that it was insane to send a ship captain in the military to rendezvous with the head of state of your greatest enemy, who you are about to negotiate a historic and unprecedented peace with.

Even if you send Kirk on that mission because of his proven military prowess, there is no way you don’t staff the Enterprise with an entire brigade of Federation diplomatic personnel, ambassadors and specialists. In TOS, for infinitely less sensitive situations, they always had a Federation diplomat there to run that part of the mission.

It’s one of the many reasons I don’t love TUC as much as most people do. The foundational premise that they’d send Kirk out there alone with no diplomatic back-up or oversight is completely inane.

Even the script seems to acknowledge this as being under-baked stupidity, as Kirk himself protests that “a full ambassador would be better equipped…”

My slight pushback to this is that Spock was there, and Spock (from what I recall) had some diplomatic dealings with the Klingons before Kirk is brought in. Further, would the Klingons respect an ambassador or a warrior like Kirk more? I could see them seeing the Federation sending an ambassador instead as a sign of disrespect.

 

[Ottens]

I think the answer is a combination of a) naiveté on the park of Spock and Sarek, who couldn't empathize with just how painful it would be for Kirk to kowtow to Klingons, and b) the conspirators in Starfleet Command seizing on this idea as the perfect opportunity for their plot to kill Gorkon.

 

[urrutiap]

Whatculture.com is being slow with their takes on Star Trek V and VIl. They need to get on the ball. The way i see it with Star Trek V and VI

Star Trek V
-Spock being somehow immune to total brainwashing by Sybok after Spock did have his flashback memory
-Scotty acting like he knew Enterprise A like it was the back of his hand. Yeah ok. maybe the original Enterprise ship. But not Enterprise A which is brand new and locations of certain areas were still new to them

Star Trek VI
-besides the conspiracy of getting rid of Gorkon, Brock peters character along with Spock think it would be ok to have Kirk to invite Gorkon to dinner and discuss peace.

- the damn klingons being obsessed with Shakespeare. Really?
-Chang getting up and to personal in Kirk's face the whole time during the arrival. Back up there baldy. Iowa boy is still thinking about the death of his son and still has issues with klingons
-Spock's stupid comment about Nixon
-Why didnt Sulu and the rest of the Excelsior crew just warp speed out of danger when the Praxis shock wave happened? they were stupid just sitting there
-Uhura not knowing Klingon language so she digs out an old translator book to keep up.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Remember that Admiral Cartwright and some of the starfleet higher ups wanted the mission to fail as much as Chang did. There was a two-sided conspiracy for this whole thing to go up in flames, so you can see why those people wanted to send Kirk.

 

[USS Firefly]

Uhura not knowing Klingon language so she digs out an old translator book to keep up.

Nicole Nichols hated that scene and rightly so

 

[flandry84]

The same reason you send Jellico to talk to the Cardassians.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk wasn't a diplomatic envoy, he was simply supposed to be an escort. I think he invited the Klingons over hoping that something would go wrong and prove the Klingons weren't actually interested in peace. He wasn't interested in peace anymore than Chang and Cartwright were, just for different reasons.

 

[Vger23]

Remember that Admiral Cartwright and some of the starfleet higher ups wanted the mission to fail as much as Chang did. There was a two-sided conspiracy for this whole thing to go up in flames, so you can see why those people wanted to send Kirk.

But it shouldn’t have been a Starfleet decision at all. It should have been a Federation decision.

 

[DarKush]

Kirk wasn't a diplomatic envoy, he was simply supposed to be an escort. I think he invited the Klingons over hoping that something would go wrong and prove the Klingons weren't actually interested in peace. He wasn't interested in peace anymore than Chang and Cartwright were, just for different reasons.

I agree with most of what you write here, though I don't think Kirk brought the Klingons over in the hopes that something would go wrong. I think he did it out of diplomatic courtesy. It was what he was supposed to do, and perhaps also he might wanted to get a sense of what the Klingons were really up to and get a read on them by looking them in the eye.

 

[publiusr]

I think the answer is a combination of a) naiveté on the park of Spock and Sarek, who couldn't empathize with just how painful it would be for Kirk to kowtow to Klingons, and b) the conspirators in Starfleet Command seizing on this idea as the perfect opportunity for their plot to kill Gorkon.

They were hoping Kirk would cook off over David—-or set him up if he turned soft. The folks we saw on the planet of galactic peace? They needed food tasters.

 

[Jedi Marso]

But it shouldn’t have been a Starfleet decision at all. It should have been a Federation decision.

True, but when the mission is flying on a starfleet vessel, you can expect that starfleet will choose the vessel and its captain.