Star Trek VI -- Shield Question

[Herkimer Jitty]

Well, I don't know that there's anything like an explosion going on at all.

And in the klingon sequence, the bolt certainly looks like it wraps AROUND the whole klingon ship before the ship dissolves/beams out/implodes.

I had always assumed that that shot from V'ger had simply overpowered the Klingon's shields. The Enterprise barely survived a single hit, and it was brand spanking new. I'd assume that those Klingon cruisers were not as high-tech and powerful, and thus, not as fortunate.

 

[trevanian]

So you have a torp skipping off the hull when the shields are supposedly 'up' ... how does that match with the pretty shots in ERRAND?

Umm... Exactly that way.

That is, ST6 is perfectly consistent with TOS in that shields protect the vessel from structural damage when torpedoes hit the hull, but damage is caused when torps hit unshielded hull. There is no instance of "torpedoes waltzing through shields" in ST6. There is explicit dialogue that shields exist, and are up or down, depending on the scene. There are diagrams showing the shields, nicely conformal insofar as one can trust a diagram to represent reality. There are torpedoes smacking onto the hull that is said to be shielded without causing damage. There are torpedoes causing damage when they impact hull that is said to be unshielded.

What else could you possibly need to verify perfect consistency with TOS? Or with DS9/VOY, for that matter (except that some weapons in those shows cause gasoline explosions when hitting the conformal shields; not torpedoes, though).

Timo Saloniemi

No, the TOS stuff has the sparkle weapons doing a kind of starburst as they hit, I didn't see anything like that in TUC. There was SOMEthing like that in SFS, but the shields were down then, plus the SFS effect was just outrageously stupid looking.

Look, you're trying to make TUC seem like TOS because you can't make it work with your earlier TOS MOVIE argument, the tmp twok tsfs stuff.

 

[Data Holmes]

I can't help but be reminded that I've had this conversation several times in trek tec over the years.


I do like how one of the BoP's shots bounced off of the ships shields...


I think that it's the difference between screens and shields. One is the bubble (I like screens for this) and the other is the hull conformal defensive layer (I like shields for this one) as described in the Mr Scott's Guide.

 

[trevanian]

I can't help but be reminded that I've had this conversation several times in trek tec over the years.


I do like how one of the BoP's shots bounced off of the ships shields...


I think that it's the difference between screens and shields. One is the bubble (I like screens for this) and the other is the hull conformal defensive layer (I like shields for this one) as described in the Mr Scott's Guide.

According to the guys at ILM, that shot bounces off the hull, not the shields ...

But to address your last point, there's stuff in GR's novelization or the phase 2 bible about a skinfield I think, and it is probably the 'forcefields up full' referenced in TMP, which is something separate from deflectors.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

I would have to go with Data Holmes' assumption about the shield's..

-Deflector Screens = Bubble
-Force Fields = Conformal

 

[Data Holmes]

I can't help but be reminded that I've had this conversation several times in trek tec over the years.


I do like how one of the BoP's shots bounced off of the ships shields...


I think that it's the difference between screens and shields. One is the bubble (I like screens for this) and the other is the hull conformal defensive layer (I like shields for this one) as described in the Mr Scott's Guide.

According to the guys at ILM, that shot bounces off the hull, not the shields ...

Yes, I do believe it was you who I was involved in a heavy back to back on this issue back in the day, was it not?

I know that ILM never intended for there to be a shield effect, but lets face it, that was a flaw on their thinking and lazy effects work considering the whole "shields weakening" was a major tool to build up tension in the script and in the film...

On a completely unrelated note, I don't think there is another director of the trek films who has been more abusive to the enterprise than Nick Meyer.

I have always thought of the ship as one of the main charecters of Trek, and when it's treated as such, Long lost friend in TMP and TVH. A fighter like Rocky in TWOK and TUC. The friend who gives his life in TSFS. Or the Prankster in TFF... The ship is as much of a charecter as the crew which inhabits her...

I have no clue where this is going so I will end that thought there...

But to address your last point, there's stuff in GR's novelization or the phase 2 bible about a skinfield I think, and it is probably the 'forcefields up full' referenced in TMP, which is something separate from deflectors.

Yes, but the lines of dialog offer some clue. Decker refers to "screens and shields" Sulu points out "the new screens held" in a situation where the impact was on the "bubble", after checkov responded that "Force fields and Deflectors up full"...

So, we have "Screens and shields" referenced and "force fields and deflectors"...

If there was a internal consistency to the thinking behind the script, it is not that far of a thought to think that "a & b" speaking about two things, with interchangeable names would follow the same "a & b" order, so Screens would equal force fields and shields would equal deflectors...

And from sulu's saying "the new screens held" with the effects shot showing the plasma shot breaking around the "bubble" defense system, that the bubble is the screens or force fields, and the "skinfield" as you say, would be the shields or deflectors.

What say you?

 

[Cyke101]

When Scotty raises and lowers the shields in Star Trek V, his onscreen graphics show a conformal shield configuration. Does that count?

I assume those are the same types of shields used in TUC, since Scotty's computer displays a similar shield configuration. And, hey, it's the same ship anyway.

I don't get what the big fuss is about. Even in TNG and Voyager, when we see bubble shields in action, dialogue also states the occasional bit of hull breach and microfractures, even though shields take a pounding. Shields aren't the ultimate defense, and there would be an even greater risk of rupturing the hull with conformal shields if the shields are projected that close to the ship (much of DS9, for example).

I would like a bit of a reminder, though: in "In A Mirror Darkly," did we ever get to see the Defiant take any hits with her shields up?

 

[trevanian]

I can't help but be reminded that I've had this conversation several times in trek tec over the years.


I do like how one of the BoP's shots bounced off of the ships shields...


I think that it's the difference between screens and shields. One is the bubble (I like screens for this) and the other is the hull conformal defensive layer (I like shields for this one) as described in the Mr Scott's Guide.

According to the guys at ILM, that shot bounces off the hull, not the shields ...

Yes, I do believe it was you who I was involved in a heavy back to back on this issue back in the day, was it not?

I know that ILM never intended for there to be a shield effect, but lets face it, that was a flaw on their thinking and lazy effects work considering the whole "shields weakening" was a major tool to build up tension in the script and in the film...

On a completely unrelated note, I don't think there is another director of the trek films who has been more abusive to the enterprise than Nick Meyer.

I have always thought of the ship as one of the main charecters of Trek, and when it's treated as such, Long lost friend in TMP and TVH. A fighter like Rocky in TWOK and TUC. The friend who gives his life in TSFS. Or the Prankster in TFF... The ship is as much of a charecter as the crew which inhabits her...

I have no clue where this is going so I will end that thought there...

But to address your last point, there's stuff in GR's novelization or the phase 2 bible about a skinfield I think, and it is probably the 'forcefields up full' referenced in TMP, which is something separate from deflectors.

Yes, but the lines of dialog offer some clue. Decker refers to "screens and shields" Sulu points out "the new screens held" in a situation where the impact was on the "bubble", after checkov responded that "Force fields and Deflectors up full"...

So, we have "Screens and shields" referenced and "force fields and deflectors"...

If there was a internal consistency to the thinking behind the script, it is not that far of a thought to think that "a & b" speaking about two things, with interchangeable names would follow the same "a & b" order, so Screens would equal force fields and shields would equal deflectors...

And from sulu's saying "the new screens held" with the effects shot showing the plasma shot breaking around the "bubble" defense system, that the bubble is the screens or force fields, and the "skinfield" as you say, would be the shields or deflectors.

What say you?

It's all messed up, I'll grant you, and your screens/shields thing sounds as right as we're likely to get. According to the phase 2 bible, they weren't going to call them shields at all, just screens (which is why 'screen on' becomes 'viewer on' much to my displeasure.)

RE: Ent as character ... the David Gerrold comment about TWOK, where we see the potential mortality of the Enterprise with the canopener shot of it getting blasted, really brings that home. Moreso than blowing her up in SFS, just the idea that she can get carved up that way seems physically painful to me.

 

[Timo]

I still really don't understand what this argument is all about. The effects in "Errand of Mercy" and ST6 are 100% identical as far as the role of shields is concerned: they are close to the hull, and invisible. The torpedo effects there are near-identical as well: bright balls of light streak towards the hull, then hit it and go kaboom (or in that one ST6 shot, skip off), and the ship is none the worse for the wear.

To consider this an "inconsistency" is absurd. It's just as consistent as Shatner's eye color or McCoy's first name, for chrissakes. And nothing, nothing in ST6 indicates that shields would be absent, that torpedoes would "sail through them".

Okay, so there may have been bubble shields in TMP, although the single angle we get doesn't confirm or contradict that. That would be the only time there is a shield bubble in TOS or the TOS movies, though - so why aren't we griping about how TMP is so poorly done, so inconsistent with the rest?

(It does help that the protective systems in that movie are stated to be "new", of course. )

Timo Saloniemi