Star Trek VI -- Shield Question

[CuttingEdge100]

How come in Star Trek 6 the BoP's torpedoes kept sailing right through the Enterprise's shields even when they were clearly up (Scotty was saying that the shields were weakening and were collapsing)?


CuttingEdge100

 

[dudley]

For the same reason that the Enterprise-D fired a phaser blast out of its torpedo tube: some folks in charge at some level either don't care or don't take the time to learn the universe. If you're not passionate about the universe, why is this your job?

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Though I did like the fact that they decided not to state the shield's exact percentage every time someone threw so much as a shoe at them. "She's packing quite a wallop" sounds better than "31 percent." "Shields at 25 percent."

 

[Maurice]

For the same reason that the Enterprise-D fired a phaser blast out of its torpedo tube: some folks in charge at some level either don't care or don't take the time to learn the universe. If you're not passionate about the universe, why is this your job?

Because you're passionate about making movies, or making visual effects shots, and this is just another gig.

Seriously, that didn't bug me so much in the film, because the torpedoes that did hit the shielded ship just left scorch marks. Once can assume that the weakened shields didn't block 100% of the impact, but most of it. Once the shields collapsed, one hit blew right right through the hull.

 

[JNG]

Well, perhaps some parts of the shield were still functioning and others not so much. Hard to tell from looking at it, but the torpedoes could not really have detonated completely within the shield grid or the unprotected ship would likely have been destroyed. Or perhaps some of them were dud torpedoes. Klingons...you get what you pay for!

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

One could theorize that throughout the TMP era that hull-conformal shields were the standard, but Chang's BOP was packing a variant warhead which could somehow get some damage past hull-conformal, prompting Starfleet to switch to the bubble type, which did not have this weakness.

 

[Timo]

How come in Star Trek 6 the BoP's torpedoes kept sailing right through the Enterprise's shields even when they were clearly up?

Umm, what?

Where in the movie do torpedoes "sail right through" anything? Except, of course, the saucer section of Kirk's ship after Scotty declares that the shields are gone?

It is perfectly consistent with all Trek from TOS to ST6 that torpedoes fired at a shielded Federation starship should impact against the hull. It's also perfectly consistent that the ship should be rattled as the result, but not blown to bits if the shields are in place. Compare ST6 to "Errand of Mercy" (either version).

Bubble shields are a TNG era thing - but hits against the bubbles can still cause consoles to blow up inside the shielded ship. Shields always only block part of the destructive effect, unless the attack is very weak and the shields very strong.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyke101]

Edit: nevermind

 

[GodThingFormerly]

One could theorize that throughout the TMP era that hull-conformal shields were the standard...

The TWOK-era, you mean.

TGT

 

[Timo]

How is that not conformal? A direct hit against the very bow of the saucer, it would seem...

(What is Chekov's display supposed to show? A silly running track -shaped shield with sharp kinks, or just the ship highlighted on a green background? No more representative of the physical reality than the pearl necklace we saw in ST2.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

How is that not conformal?

If the Refit's shields was conformal you wouldn't be able to see the fucking hull from those plasma tendrils.

(And what is Chekov's display supposed to show? I can't read the image at all.)

Compare it to this one and spot the difference.

TGT

 

[Timo]

If the Refit's shields was conformal you wouldn't be able to see the fucking hull from those plasma tendrils.

Why not? They could be spraying at 90 degree angles of the impact (or, rather, in a hemisphere defined by the wall they just hit), rather than licking along the surface of a shield bubble.

Also, seems that I have too quick a "post" finger but too slow an "edit" one to stay apace with you...

Timo

 

[trevanian]

It is perfectly consistent with all Trek from TOS to ST6 that torpedoes fired at a shielded Federation starship should impact against the hull. It's also perfectly consistent that the ship should be rattled as the result, but not blown to bits if the shields are in place. Compare ST6 to "Errand of Mercy" i

The shields are NEVER up in SFS or TWOK when the ships are hit, just watch the movies and listen to the dialog. In TFF it doesn't sound like they are either.

So we've never seen a torp hit a shield until the 24th century stuff in GEN, unless you count the bolt from vger in TMP, since the asteroid debris hitting the shield in TMP was cut from the film pre-release and replaced with a lousier blast.

 

[trevanian]

How is that not conformal? A direct hit against the very bow of the saucer, it would seem...

(What is Chekov's display supposed to show? A silly running track -shaped shield with sharp kinks, or just the ship highlighted on a green background? No more representative of the physical reality than the pearl necklace we saw in ST2.)

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe TGT should get Lee Cole in here to clear this up. The bubble thing seems pretty clear to me in TMP's graphic.

As for the actual hit outside, if it were conformal, it'd've been wrapping the top and bottom of the dish and coming toward camera, not staying as a midground effect between the ship and the cloud.

 

[Timo]

...So it is perfectly consistent from TOS to ST6 how torps vs. shields is supposed to work.

Really, we have two perfectly good examples of torpedo hits against raised shields, in "Errand" (and in stock footage recycled from that ep) and in ST6, and they match. We don't have contradicting examples. What's there to complain about?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

if it were conformal, it'd've been wrapping

Why would the hit "wrap" anything? It's an explosion happening in the vacuum of space. Or in the plasma cloud that has just traveled across space and come to a stop here.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[trevanian]

...So it is perfectly consistent from TOS to ST6 how torps vs. shields is supposed to work.

Really, we have two perfectly good examples of torpedo hits against raised shields, in "Errand" (and in stock footage recycled from that ep) and in ST6, and they match. We don't have contradicting examples. What's there to complain about?

Timo Saloniemi

You're seeing things if you see a torp hit a shield in TUC. ILM's brief review of previous films led them to the conclusion that since shields hadn't been seen, they weren't going to get into that with ST 6. So you have a torp skipping off the hull when the shields are supposedly 'up' ... how does that match with the pretty shots in ERRAND?

 

[trevanian]

if it were conformal, it'd've been wrapping

Why would the hit "wrap" anything? It's an explosion happening in the vacuum of space. Or in the plasma cloud that has just traveled across space and come to a stop here.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, I don't know that there's anything like an explosion going on at all.

And in the klingon sequence, the bolt certainly looks like it wraps AROUND the whole klingon ship before the ship dissolves/beams out/implodes.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Maybe TGT should get Lee Cole in here to clear this up. The bubble thing seems pretty clear to me in TMP's graphic.

I believe it was actually Richard Starstream who designed the weapons/defense station graphics for ST:TMP, but he has been put upon enough by fans over the last few days so I would rather not monster him with questions concerning this embarrassing horseshit if at all possible.

TGT

 

[Timo]

So you have a torp skipping off the hull when the shields are supposedly 'up' ... how does that match with the pretty shots in ERRAND?

Umm... Exactly that way.

That is, ST6 is perfectly consistent with TOS in that shields protect the vessel from structural damage when torpedoes hit the hull, but damage is caused when torps hit unshielded hull. There is no instance of "torpedoes waltzing through shields" in ST6. There is explicit dialogue that shields exist, and are up or down, depending on the scene. There are diagrams showing the shields, nicely conformal insofar as one can trust a diagram to represent reality. There are torpedoes smacking onto the hull that is said to be shielded without causing damage. There are torpedoes causing damage when they impact hull that is said to be unshielded.

What else could you possibly need to verify perfect consistency with TOS? Or with DS9/VOY, for that matter (except that some weapons in those shows cause gasoline explosions when hitting the conformal shields; not torpedoes, though).

Timo Saloniemi