Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it means.

[sonak]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

Whilst it might mean something different in Hamlet, it still fits the overall theme or ST VI, which is about the hopes and fears of a unknown future. And whether or not it is one of peace or war.

well, if you're going to take quotes that mean something else and then use them for a different theme, saying they can still fit that theme, you can do that with just about any quotes.

you could take the famous line "life is a tale told by an idiot,..." etc. and say it's really about a music concert, since it has the words "full of sound and fury."


This particular line had a meaning. It was about death.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

Well how about the "death" of hostilities bewteen the UFP and the Klingon Empore

 

[sonak]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

Well how about the "death" of hostilities bewteen the UFP and the Klingon Empore

I think that would've been a bit of a reach, but still clever if that's the direction they'd have wanted to take it.

 

[Captrek]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

This particular line had a meaning. It was about death.

It was, specifically, about death.

It was, more generally, about the dilemma of whether to bear the ills we have, or to take a one-way flight to an undiscovered country with ills we know not of.

For Hamlet, choosing between life and death, the dreaded undiscovered country is an unknown afterlife from which he can't return.

In TUC, choosing between the continuation of war and the beginning of peace, the dreaded undiscovered country is an unknown future with Klingons being trusted and living freely in Federation space.

They use the same metaphor for two things. There are reasons it's a fitting metaphor for the afterlife, and the same reasons make it a fitting metaphor for the unknown future contemplated in TUC.

well, if you're going to take quotes that mean something else and then use them for a different theme, saying they can still fit that theme, you can do that with just about any quotes.

you could take the famous line "life is a tale told by an idiot,..." etc. and say it's really about a music concert, since it has the words "full of sound and fury."

Feel free to use "A Tale Told by an Idiot" as the title of anything you write.

 

[sonak]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

This particular line had a meaning. It was about death.

It was, specifically, about death.

It was, more generally, about the dilemma of whether to bear the ills we have, or to take a one-way flight to an undiscovered country with ills we know not of.

For Hamlet, choosing between life and death, the dreaded undiscovered country is an unknown afterlife from which he can't return.

In TUC, choosing between the continuation of war and the beginning of peace, the dreaded undiscovered country is an unknown future with Klingons being trusted and living freely in Federation space.

They use the same metaphor for two things. There are reasons it's a fitting metaphor for the afterlife, and the same reasons make it a fitting metaphor for the unknown future contemplated in TUC.

well, if you're going to take quotes that mean something else and then use them for a different theme, saying they can still fit that theme, you can do that with just about any quotes.

you could take the famous line "life is a tale told by an idiot,..." etc. and say it's really about a music concert, since it has the words "full of sound and fury."

Feel free to use "A Tale Told by an Idiot" as the title of anything you write.

oooh, burn! feel free to pack an extra cookie in your lunch bag for that one, you sure do deserve it.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

This particular line had a meaning. It was about death.

It was, specifically, about death.

It was, more generally, about the dilemma of whether to bear the ills we have, or to take a one-way flight to an undiscovered country with ills we know not of.

For Hamlet, choosing between life and death, the dreaded undiscovered country is an unknown afterlife from which he can't return.

In TUC, choosing between the continuation of war and the beginning of peace, the dreaded undiscovered country is an unknown future with Klingons being trusted and living freely in Federation space.

They use the same metaphor for two things. There are reasons it's a fitting metaphor for the afterlife, and the same reasons make it a fitting metaphor for the unknown future contemplated in TUC.

well, if you're going to take quotes that mean something else and then use them for a different theme, saying they can still fit that theme, you can do that with just about any quotes.

you could take the famous line "life is a tale told by an idiot,..." etc. and say it's really about a music concert, since it has the words "full of sound and fury."

Feel free to use "A Tale Told by an Idiot" as the title of anything you write.

captrek, I am afraid you have earned an infraction for flaming. Comments to me.

 

[Doug Otte]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

Indeed, Kirk and Company, as well as their Klingon counterparts, were considering the death of their careers and worldview.

Doug

 

[InklingStar]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

It has been a long while but I recall J.M. Dillard's novelization expanding on the seeming discrepancy by having Spock remark on the literal meaning and Gorkon explaining his altered meaning.

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

It has been a long while but I recall J.M. Dillard's novelization expanding on the seeming discrepancy by having Spock remark on the literal meaning and Gorkon explaining his altered meaning.

Didn't the actual scene as filmed last much longer but got chopped up for runtime?

 

[David cgc]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

Yeah, but that explanation is original to the novel (probably. This isn't quite the final draft). In case anyone's curious...

43 INT. OFFICERS' MESS, ENTERPRISE 43

A WINDOW IRISES OPEN REVEALING the stars gliding by.

A HAND POURS DEEP BLUE ROMULAN ALE into Gorkon's
crystal goblet. Dinner well underway. Principles from
both parties are at table. STEWARDS keep food and
drink in motion.

GORKON
I give you a toast: the
undiscovered country -
(off their looks)
the future.

All drink ROMULAN ALE, echoing "the undiscovered
country." The KLINGONS eat with their fingers,
scorning utensils.

SPOCK
HAMLET, act three, scene one.

GORKON
You have never experienced
Shakespeare until you have read
him in the original Klingon.

Chang turns to Kirk with a malicious twinkle.

CHANG
"To be or not to be, that is the
question" which preoccupies our
people, Captain Kirk. We need
BREATHING room...

KIRK
I beg your pardon?

KERLA
Captain Kirk, I thought Romulan ale
was illegal.

It takes Kirk a moment to regain his composure.

KIRK
One of the advantages of being
a thousand light years from
Federation headquarters.

Silence.

BONES
To you, Chancellor Gorkon: one of
the architects of our future.

All drink. As Romulan ale flows throughout the scene,
tongues get looser. Gorkon WATCHES.

SCOTTY
Perhaps we are looking at something
of that future here.

AZETBUR
Commander Spock, mindful of all
your work behind the scenes, and
despite the cordiality at this
mess, I do not sense an acceptance
of our people throughout your ship.

SPOCK
They're naturally wary, ma'am.
We've been at war a long time.

UHURA
How do both sides overcome
ingrained prejudice?

CHEKOV
Perhaps with a few small steps
at a time. Like this one.

BONES
And perhaps with a large step or
two. Like a peace treaty.

CHANG
Captain Kirk, are you willing to
give up Starfleet?

Kirk stares.

SPOCK
(looks at Kirk)
I believe the Captain feels that
Starfleet's mission has always
been one of peace -

KIRK
(glares)
Far be it for me to dispute my
first officer. Starfleet has
always -

CHANG
Come now, Captain, this dinner
is off the record: in space all
warriors are cold warriors.

SCOTTY
We have never tried to --

KERLA
You hypocritically presume that
your democratic system gives you
a moral prerogative to force other
cultures to conform to your
politics.

BONES
That's not true...!

KERLA
No?

Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.

UHURA
General, are YOU fond of
Shakespeare?

He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh.
Chekov pursues -

CHEKOV
We do NOT impose democracy on
others. We do believe that every
planet has a sovereign claim to
human rights.

AZETBUR
(spits)
"Human rights." Even the name is
racist. The Federation is
basically a "homo sapiens" only
club...

SPOCK reacts to this. Chang is amused.

CHANG
Present company excepted, to be
sure...

UHURA
Well, I suppose we're not perfect -

SCOTTY
(rising)
Don't let them put words in your
mouth - ! I haven't served 30
years in the engine room of a
starship to be accused of gunboat
diplomacy!

KERLA
In any case, we know where this is
leading: the annihilation of our
culture. Klingons will replace
those on the lowest rung of the
Federation employment ladder,
taking menial jobs and performing
them for lower pay...

CHEKOV
That's economics, not racism -

UHURA
But you have to admit it adds up to
the same thing.

BONES
Don't be naive, Commander -!

UHURA
Who you calling naive -?

Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.

CHEKOV
We're explorers not diplomats!

BONES
Starfleet's killed an awful lot of
natural phenomena in the name of
"exploration"...

SCOTTY
We follow orders...

CHEKOV
Since when has THAT been an excuse?
Diplomacy must resolve these -

SCOTTY
Right - leave it to the politicians
to muck it up and leave us
defenseless...!

A COUGH interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon.
The Klingons conceal their amusement.

GORKON
(finally)
Well. I see we have a long way to
go.

Reactions from Kirk and his officers.

 

[UssGlenn]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

I could see swapping the titles of STV and STIV. Giving the Search for God a title alluding to the afterlife and the one about the Future the title "The Final Frontier" plus the bonus of having the last film have the word Final in it.

 

[sonak]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

instead of using it for a poster, I think subtitling Star Trek VI "The battle for peace" would've been pretty cool.

 

[Joker]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

Yeah, but that explanation is original to the novel (probably. This isn't quite the final draft). In case anyone's curious...

Makes a lot more sense than the mess we ended up with in the film.

I recall Dennis saying years ago he'd seen the dailies from that sequence, and the actors kept flubbing their lines, resulting in most of it being chopped.

How could they have fucked this particular scene up that badly?

 

[Vance]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

How could they have fucked this particular scene up that badly?

Nichelle was reportedly obviously uncomfortable with a lot of her dialog there (too reflective of the real world in the 1960s).

You also have dialog where Starfleet Officers are taking the Klingon point of view, which starts to get out of character. I know a couple of the stars had problems with the dialog here for that reason.

Basically it was a scene that was uncomfortable for the actors, so they did the best they could since it was so important.

 

[Expo67]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

It all worked out in the end. The finished scene being an example of that.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

Interesting that the script ends with the Enterprise crew basically squabbling amongst themselves, the Klingons sitting back with amusement, whereas in the final edit, it's more of the Klingons verses the humans.

It also omits Kirk's cheap shot ("Earth, Hitler, 1938"), which is probably the best line in the scene, and reveals completely his own prejudices to Chang.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Re: Star Trek VI: I do not think that this means what you think it mea

^That scene was in my VHS version. Spock's expression said it all. "Oh, for the love of Surak, Jim!"