Star Trek V - The Dream Theory

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Well, to get (excessively) technical, he's not identified by name in ST VI.

And even so, just because Klaa appeared in the "dream" doesn't mean there wasn't a real Klaa. (See "Tommy Westphall")

 

[2takesfrakes]

Wasn't this theory put forward before ... elsewhere? This is strangely familiar to me.

 

[The Old Mixer]

If only this movie weren't so crappy that "it was all a dream" sounds like an improvement....

 

[Redfern]

Wasn't this theory put forward before ... elsewhere? This is strangely familiar to me.

I'm sure several fans have independently developed this idea. I did something similar myself years ago though I didn't bother posting my thoughts.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Khan 2.0]

Wasn't this theory put forward before ... elsewhere? This is strangely familiar to me.

its on imdb Trek V board, I posted it there

 

[Galileo7]

I actually think it's a really good (and interesting) idea, making TFF a dream of Kirk's.

Agree, I think it works as a dream with the Yosemite campfire bookend scenes.

 

[erastus25]

Amazing. I love this. It's now in my personal canon.

2 small problems though:
1. Does anyone dream in 3rd person omniscient? I don't think so. The scenes Kirk isn't present for need to be explained.
2. Less of a problem, more of an inconsistency: STar Trek is always careful of not showing external shots during dream sequences, fantasies, or Holodeck episodes. This movie would violate that rule of thumb.

But, yeah, this is an amazing theory and I love it.

 

[Christopher]

2 small problems though:
1. Does anyone dream in 3rd person omniscient? I don't think so. The scenes Kirk isn't present for need to be explained.

Oh, I've had plenty of dreams where I was a detached observer watching a scene from outside, or where I was seeing through the eyes of someone other than myself. And it's not uncommon in such dreams to shift from being someone else to being myself, or from being outside a dream character's POV to within it.

Of course, dreams are in no way linear, consistent narratives following a three-act structure. They're stream-of-consciousness weirdness that transform from moment to moment. Like being in a hallway one moment and outdoors the next without noticing the transition, or seeing a lawnmower one moment and finding it to be a model helicopter shortly thereafter, again with no noticeable transition. (Both of which I've actually experienced in a dream.)

I'm reminded of my thoughts on the original Total Recall, which I posted about on my blog a while back. The relevant quote:

The main argument against this position [that the movie is a delusion] is that we see scenes that aren’t from Quaid’s POV, and thus couldn’t be part of a memory-implant illusion. But to me, the key is what Roy Brocksmith’s character tells Quaid in the hotel room: that what he’s experiencing isn’t the programmed vacation package, but a free-form delusion his mind is manufacturing based on that implant. So if he’s suffering a paranoid delusion, then the scenes that take place in Quaid’s absence could represent what his paranoid mind believes is going on behind his back — his wife betraying him, a murderous enemy pursuing him and being given marching orders by the dictator of Mars, etc.

 

[Nebusj]

2 small problems though:
1. Does anyone dream in 3rd person omniscient? I don't think so. The scenes Kirk isn't present for need to be explained.

Oh, I've had plenty of dreams where I was a detached observer watching a scene from outside, or where I was seeing through the eyes of someone other than myself. And it's not uncommon in such dreams to shift from being someone else to being myself, or from being outside a dream character's POV to within it.

I, too, have a fair number of dreams in which I'm not any kind of participant, not even a watcher, and a few in which the viewpoint was that of a friend. A couple nights ago I had a dream best described as ``watching this bizarre forgotten movie from decades ago''; it, of course, felt perfectly natural at the time.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Overall I think the dream idea is excellent, because the makers of ST V did not take the subject seriously. The "surreal dream" fix is right precisely because the movie is filled with things that are so wrong.

Some people say that many second season episodes of Lost in Space were just dreams that Penny Robinson had, or fiction she wrote. They don't say that because the episodes were brilliant works of science fiction.

A bigger budget or better effects would not have improved ST V, because its problems are conceptual. It didn't need more added (especially rock monsters, which would've been a really stupid climax for a story about a quest for God), it needed stuff deleted. Cut out the three lines about the center of the galaxy, cut out the impossibly high turboshaft, cut out Scotty hitting his head on a pipe, cut out Uhura flirting with Scotty, maybe change the photon torpedoes at the climax to phasers (because antimatter warheads going off that close to the leads would vaporize them and everything for kilometers around them, not just knock them off their feet), and it becomes a much smarter movie.

I wholeheartedly endorse these ideas as well.

 

[Dukhat]

If you look at TFF as a strange dream of Kirks...

Holy crap. What you've described makes perfect sense. It makes the film make perfect sense.

The biggest problem I have with the theory is Shatner doesn't mention anything close to this in Star Trek Movie Memories.

Well of course not. That's not what Shatner intended, and I don't think that's what the OP is suggesting. This is just a thought experiment, and a damn good one at that.

*EDIT* Actually, reading the OP's last line of his post, it does sound like that's what he's suggesting. I'm pretty sure this was NOT Shatner's intention. However, if he had any foresight, he could have totally gotten away with explaining the movie away as a dream.

Shatner: "Deck 78? Of course the Enterprise doesn't have 78 decks. That was a subtle clue that this was all fake, like that unicorn dream Harrison Ford had in Blade Runner!"

 

[Khan 2.0]

Amazing. I love this. It's now in my personal canon.

2 small problems though:
1. Does anyone dream in 3rd person omniscient? I don't think so. The scenes Kirk isn't present for need to be explained.
2. Less of a problem, more of an inconsistency: STar Trek is always careful of not showing external shots during dream sequences, fantasies, or Holodeck episodes. This movie would violate that rule of thumb.

But, yeah, this is an amazing theory and I love it.

I don't think the scenes where Kirk wasn't present would be a problem as a person dosnt always dream about themselves in the action.

however the opening with the bald guy and sybok, and the sybok siege occur before Kirk beds down for the night which create a problem...however there can be an explanation. the entire opening was still set in Kirks dream - the opening is very dreamlike, Kirks ascent and fall from the mountain (falling is a very common dream) he is also saved by his best friend Spock (wearing jetboots) another symbolic dream image, the Scotty & Uhura out of nowhere romance, the 'Paradise Lost' siege with weird cat creature is like something from a dream etc.....which would make everything which occurs before they bed down at the campsite the first ‘level’ of the dream - the bed down and what occurred after would be a ‘dream within a dream.’ The only problem with having Kirk dreaming before he falls asleep at the campsite is Kirk falling from El Capitan would be 'the kick' and have shouldve woken him out of his dream!

unless...we have the opening with Sybok and the bald guy and the mountain climb etc as Kirks dream within a dream...he falls (the kick) is woken up into the normal first stage dream at the campsite...then they bed down and fall asleep and everything that occurs after (including being 'woken' by the shuttle) is a dream within a dream until at the end when they around the campfire again its just a dream (with a marsh 'melon' as his totem)
Of course the most rational explanation is the opening, the climb, and the siege were all real world that kirk knew about beforehand (or maybe checked out on his 23rd century smart phone at the campsite) then incorporated that stuff into his bourbon/marsh melon fuelled dream.

 

[austen_pierce]

I love this theory; very, very well thought out. But as others have written, it's just a theory, not what Shatner or the franchise intended/presented.

I kinda like the "STV as Kirk's dying thoughts on Veridian III" aspect though. Play this out and you get TVH followed immediately by TUC, then GEN, then TFF as the true, if surreal, goodbye from the original cast. Not sure how I feel about this.

 

[Christopher]

How about a compromise explanation? The film is a dream in which the dreamer relived events that actually happened, but in a distorted way, interpolating fantasy images like the gravity boots, the "center of the galaxy" being 20 minutes away, the 78 decks, being harmlessly knocked down by a photon torpedo, etc. Sort of a variation of the Literary Agent Hypothesis, that the story you're seeing is a fictionalized and embellished account of an actual event.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I love this theory; very, very well thought out. But as others have written, it's just a theory, not what Shatner or the franchise intended/presented.

Maybe someone could do a re-edit as an Inception style dream reality movie:
-open the movie with the rock climb/campfire and put the Sybok opening and various other scenes AFTER Kirk beds down.
-insert a brief scene of Kirk staring at one of those blue unicorns with a curious expression.
-include some Inception style "BRRRRAAAWWWs!!" on the score at various points.
-let Shatner have his devil/rockmen end in CGI (see GalaxyQuest/Hulk 2003/Noah)

I kinda like the "STV as Kirk's dying thoughts on Veridian III" aspect though. Play this out and you get TVH followed immediately by TUC, then GEN, then TFF as the true, if surreal, goodbye from the original cast. Not sure how I feel about this.

yes thatd be cool (besides VI feels more of a sequel to IV than V does)
also this:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=8673958#post8673958

 

[F. King Daniel]

A few nights ago I dreamt a Doctor Who episode, as if it were pumped directly into my brain. That's what happens when you watch all of Watch's Saturday marathon. It was the first time I dreamt like that and was very strange.

I still hate the idea STV was a dream, though.

 

[Ryann866]

If you look at TFF as a strange dream of Kirks...from the first campsite scene post mountain fall to right at the end of the film with the 'Row Row Row your boat' reprise..then its possible that Trek V is actually a Shatnerian masterpiece of modern day cinema like a Blade Runner or Inception​

Consider:​

- The events of the movie are a reflection of Kirk's fears: being put back into action while he's unprepared, geting screwed by Starfleet, losing his crew and losing, above all, his friends.​

​

- Events/discussions from the camping trip are mirrored/manifested in the dream: climbing El Capitan/climbing the mountain at the end...the fall from El Capitan/the fall from the turbo shaft...musing around the campfire/musing around the steering wheel....Kirks fear of dying alone/being alone on an uncharted planet with a Godlike alien that wants to kill him.​

- The broken and unreliable Enterprise is another fear of Kirk; that no ship can live up to the original.​

- The movie follows dream logic: characters appear when needed (rocket booted Spock in the turboshaft, Scotty in the brig, Spock in the BoP) and reality 'warps' to accomodate the story (70+ decks, the mysterious wheel room, unicorns, sybok, God)​

- Kirk ate gods for breakfast, so its no surprise they show up in his dreams. The fight against God' is Kirks subconscious idea of a generic adventure. Likewise, a Klingon is his idea of a generic villain. Also the whole fake God thing can be interpreted as Kirk's own atheist belief that there is no higher power.

- Spock having a brother which was never mentioned before.​

- The romantic relationship between Scotty and Uhura.​

- A 30 year plus impossible journey to the centre of the galaxy that happens in a few hours.​

-the whole Sybok healing everyones pain and the fact that Kirk, Spock and Bones could see each other's illusionary flashbacks.​

- the song 'Row, Row, Row Your Boat' ends with the line 'life is but a dream'

- when going through the great barrier and the 3 are in the mysterious wheel room Bones asks 'are we dreaming?' and Kirk goes 'if we are..then life is a dream'​

- Being chased by a floating God head which shoots lightning bolts from it's eyes would have had a very nightmare like quality to it​

-The Klingons coming to Kirk's rescue is Kirk's subconcious trying to forgive the Klingon's for the death of his son.​

- In the end, Spocks saves his ass, just like he saved Spocks.​

- Kirk, Spock and Bones remain together for much of the movie..just like at the campsite..​

- And of course the story starting and ending in the same spot, with the Kirk, Spock and McCoy wearing the same clothes.​

When you look at the movie as a nightmare, a reflection of Kirks subconscious fears and desires, it actually, somehow, makes *more* sense. In fact, it starts making a *lot* of sense ..​

When people finally realise this what Shatner did its going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever....just like was Deckard a Replicant? did the totem fall?​

Lol. This is the most brilliant thing I've read about Trek V in a long time. Bravo.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

This dream explanation does 'explain' many of the off-the-wall things that happened in the film.

In regards to Uhura, it does explain the sudden romance with Scotty. And, the desert scene probably hints that Kirk, being that this is a hypothetical dream, had some thoughts about her 'in that way' all those years. (Of course, he's probably had those dreams before during the 5 year mission...haha)

 

[chevron]

I'm sold. Now, if someone does an edit with Hans Zimmer's Inception music I might actually watch this movie again.

 

[Robert Comsol]

When you look at the movie as a nightmare, a reflection of Kirks subconscious fears and desires, it actually, somehow, makes *more* sense. In fact, it starts making a *lot* of sense ...

Excellent! Very interesting observations and conclusions.

I just like to know how the image of Klingons using a 20th Century NASA space probe (Pioneer?) for target practice fits in.

Must have something to do with the V'ger story from TMP (Klingons being defeated by a probe) but I'm not a psychologist to be able to tell.

Bob