Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

[LMFAOschwarz]

All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.

I'd also imagine those jackets getting darned hot to wear in the sun!

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.

I tend to agree. In contrast to most people, I don't mind the pastel look of the TMP uniforms and find them much more realistic than the TWOK British Redcoat attire. The FC uniforms remain my favorite in all of Star Trek. But the TMP uniforms are a close second.

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

One additional item I've been wondering about: did Kirk take Decker's quarters on Deck 5? Or was Decker already staying somewhere else? We never see Decker's quarters- or anyone else's for that matter, save for the crew quarters in which the Ilia probe appears- so there's no way of knowing where he was when off-duty.

--Sran

 

[Lance]

All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.

I tend to agree. In contrast to most people, I don't mind the pastel look of the TMP uniforms and find them much more realistic than the TWOK British Redcoat attire.

The TWOK uniforms look great, very 'theatrical', which is awesome for a movie where the strong visual imprint is the king. But I don't like them a lot myself, for the simple reason that I don't think they're very practical in the sense of being real uniforms. The TMP jumpsuits have their own problems, but I do think that in-'verse they're much more appropriate than the almost too elaborate TWOK duds. Certainly as far as regular ship operation is concerned. I don't find the TWOK uniforms believable in that context.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

The TWOK uniforms look great, very 'theatrical', which is awesome for a movie where the strong visual imprint is the king. But I don't like them a lot myself, for the simple reason that I don't think they're very practical in the sense of being real uniforms. The TMP jumpsuits have their own problems, but I do think that in-'verse they're much more appropriate than the almost too elaborate TWOK duds. Certainly as far as regular ship operation is concerned. I don't find the TWOK uniforms believable in that context.

Agreed. As dress uniforms, they would have been outstanding.

 

[Lance]

The TWOK uniforms look great, very 'theatrical', which is awesome for a movie where the strong visual imprint is the king. But I don't like them a lot myself, for the simple reason that I don't think they're very practical in the sense of being real uniforms. The TMP jumpsuits have their own problems, but I do think that in-'verse they're much more appropriate than the almost too elaborate TWOK duds. Certainly as far as regular ship operation is concerned. I don't find the TWOK uniforms believable in that context.

Agreed. As dress uniforms, they would have been outstanding.

It would have been terrific if they'd just been dress uniforms that the entire crew were wearing to honor the occasion of Kirk being back aboard the ship. But I'd have liked to have seen them maybe replaced by a more 'practical' alternative once Enterprise has actually been launched and is on their way to Regula I.

We did see crewmembers in the movies occasionally shed their red tunics and just wear the shirts underneath. Even those shirts in themselves (with the affixation of the Starfleet badge, of course) would have sufficed as 'regular' operational uniforms I think.

One thing I do approve of in ST5 is that Shatner did give Kirk, Spock and McCoy an alternative uniform. I just think it would have been nice to have seen something like that in the other movies.

 

[Timewalker]

Question....

I've read that the cast hated wearing the uniforms in TMP because they were uncomfortable and hurt their backs. However, I never understood why. The uniforms actually looked quite comfortable and loose compared to other versions.

Also...is it really appropriate to call these "uniforms"? They are more like Starfleet approved clothes than uniforms. I swear it looked like no two people were wearing the same outfit and there seemed to be no protocol over who would wear what.

Walter Koenig goes into the issue of the uniforms in his book Chekov's Enterprise. He says some of the uniforms were indeed very uncomfortable, and one of the offending things was that the shoes and pants were all part of the same piece of clothing. He also says the schedule for constructing and fitting some of the costumes got severely backlogged, and it was common for someone to get a call to be fitted for a costume needed in a scene that had already been filmed a week or two before.

Maybe they just had too big a costume budget and got over-ambitious...?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Phase II was using modified versions of the series uniforms, it was only when it became TMP that Robert Fletcher was retained to design new costumes.

Sorry, I was thinking of the planning for what was assumed would follow on from TMP. The supporting cast who worked on TMP were under the impression that, after TMP was released, a series of telemovies or episodes would/might continue. The multitude of TMP costumes created were certainly made with longevity in mind.

 

[Christopher]

This is the original post by Harvey revealing the arrowhead-emblem-debunking-memo, before someone points to the Phase II article which copied it.

Thanks -- I knew someone would know where that post was.

We did see crewmembers in the movies occasionally shed their red tunics and just wear the shirts underneath. Even those shirts in themselves (with the affixation of the Starfleet badge, of course) would have sufficed as 'regular' operational uniforms I think.

Absolutely. They would've resembled the pilot uniforms, a turtleneck and black trousers.

Sorry, I was thinking of the planning for what was assumed would follow on from TMP. The supporting cast who worked on TMP were under the impression that, after TMP was released, a series of telemovies or episodes would/might continue. The multitude of TMP costumes created were certainly made with longevity in mind.

Are you sure the plan was to go back to TV, rather than doing theatrical sequels with those uniforms? True, TWOK was originally considered as a TV movie, which was why TV producer Harve Bennett got the gig, but I thought that was because of TMP's budget overruns leading Paramount to scale back their plans.

 

[J.T.B.]

I can certainly see Gotham Central's point here, though. It wasn't easy to distinguish ones' position on the ship relative to another. We knew who the characters were, of course, so it was sort of secondary, but still: Kirk at one point wore the pale blue shirt with the long sleeves, then at one point switched over to the short-sleeved white shirt with the v style neck. But Sulu also wore that style, if I remember right. Then there were the pale brown shirts which I thought Scotty wore, but I'm realizing now that he probably didn't. I don't remember who did. Spock's uniform was the only one with the dark raised collar. It did all come across as a bit of a jumble...I do wonder if it would have been confusing if they had had an entirely unfamiliar cast and crew.

According to background info in the old TMP "Make Your Own Costume" book, which had input from Robert Fletcher, personnel were allowed considerable leeway in their uniforms. The different cuts, colors and configurations gave more individual options. Spock's standing collar and McCoy's v-neck/spread collar were their own personalized touches.

As far as being confusing, that shouldn't be a problem within the crew, as long as the rank and department color are visible. If you want to take a "naval" model for Starfleet, navies have traditionally been more relaxed about everyone looking the same, standing in straight lines, marching in step and all of that. For instance, this picture from an aircraft carrier:

All things said, I prefer the cloth patches and uncomplicated design of The Motion Picture uniforms. The 'away' jackets from The Wrath of Khan are interesting to look at, but just imagine on a planet, a young, action-packed crew crawling around and running through brush with those things. With all the adornments, loops and hooks getting snagged on stuff. They just don't have the dust-yourself-off-and-keep-going utility of the the 1st movie suits, much like the originals from the series.

In TMP the metal pin breast badge as worn on Kirk's first uniform was supposed to be for "ground" wear, while those of shipboard personnel had theirs sewn on so it wouldn't snag or poke in the close confines of the ship. Those considerations were obsolete by TWOK, apparently, when the duty uniform had a surfeit of pins, buckles, straps etc.

I tend to agree. In contrast to most people, I don't mind the pastel look of the TMP uniforms and find them much more realistic than the TWOK British Redcoat attire. The FC uniforms remain my favorite in all of Star Trek. But the TMP uniforms are a close second.

I understand that they wanted to wipe the slate clean for TWOK, but my preference would have been for the new uniforms to look more like something that could have plausibly evolved from TOS/TMP, rather than such a radical departure from what had been established before.

One additional item I've been wondering about: did Kirk take Decker's quarters on Deck 5? Or was Decker already staying somewhere else? We never see Decker's quarters- or anyone else's for that matter, save for the crew quarters in which the Ilia probe appears- so there's no way of knowing where he was when off-duty.

It is possible that there were comparable quarters set aside for embarked VIPs or flag officers and Kirk could take those without displacing Decker immediately.

 

[Christopher]

In TMP the metal pin breast badge as worn on Kirk's first uniform was supposed to be for "ground" wear, while those of shipboard personnel had theirs sewn on so it wouldn't snag or poke in the close confines of the ship. Those considerations were obsolete by TWOK, apparently, when the duty uniform had a surfeit of pins, buckles, straps etc.

Wow, those uniforms just get more and more impractical and absurd the more you think about them. It's bizarre that both the practical TMP uniforms and the ridiculous TWOK uniforms were both designed by Robert Fletcher. It just goes to show how much control the director has over the decisions in a film.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

It just goes to show how much control the director has over the decisions in a film.

Particularly when said director is obsessed with de-emphasizing any futuristic aspects of either the ship or its crew members. I never had a problem with Meyer making Starfleet more militaristic, but I draw the line at his insistence that starships be treated like old-fashioned mariner vessels. The redcoat uniforms only made things worse. I'd much rather have seen the TMP uniforms either used again or modified slightly to look like a hybrid between the TMP uniforms and what we eventually got in TNG. If nothing else, we'd have been spared officers from the Lost Era wearing the red jackets with no belt or turtleneck.

--Sran

 

[Lance]

I think it might be the livery which annoys me the most about the TWOK uniforms.

All those buckles and badges and rank pins....

I seem to recall Robert Fletcher complains on the The Wrath Of Khan DVD special features that he needed to 'invent' the rank structure of Star Trek because one didn't exist before he came along..... which is complete nonsense, and Fletcher himself really ought to have known this having costumed The Motion Picture (where the fully established and easily understandable rank structure of TOS was carried over).

While the TWOK uniform rank structure is understandable, perhaps even realistic, I'm not sure it's got the elegant simplicity of TOS's rank braids or the TNG/DS9/VOY era rank pins. And the audience at home prefers, I think, the ability to instantly understand the rank structure without having to study a style guide.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

If nothing else, we'd have been spared officers from the Lost Era wearing the red jackets with no belt or turtleneck.

God, I hated that. It looked like the crew members had to dress very suddenly, the way we would if a tornado or earthquake suddenly popped up in the middle of the night.

 

[J.T.B.]

Particularly when said director is obsessed with de-emphasizing any futuristic aspects of either the ship or its crew members.

Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?

Right. I understand that Meyer wanted to show the ship gearing up for battle (and also foreshadow Spock's death). But having such a thing happen on a 23rd century ship seems far-fetched. I also never liked the idea of cramped submarine quarters for senior officers. Kirk's cabin in TUC looked smaller than my college dorm rooms.

--Sran

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?

Right. I understand that Meyer wanted to show the ship gearing up for battle (and also foreshadow Spock's death). But having such a thing happen on a 23rd century ship seems far-fetched. I also never liked the idea of cramped submarine quarters for senior officers. Kirk's cabin in TUC looked smaller than my college dorm rooms.

--Sran

A bit of an exaggeration perhaps, but it's not very different from giving movie World War II planes photon torpedoes!

 

[Melakon]

Question....

I've read that the cast hated wearing the uniforms in TMP because they were uncomfortable and hurt their backs. However, I never understood why. The uniforms actually looked quite comfortable and loose compared to other versions.

Also...is it really appropriate to call these "uniforms"? They are more like Starfleet approved clothes than uniforms. I swear it looked like no two people were wearing the same outfit and there seemed to be no protocol over who would wear what.

Walter Koenig goes into the issue of the uniforms in his book Chekov's Enterprise. He says some of the uniforms were indeed very uncomfortable, and one of the offending things was that the shoes and pants were all part of the same piece of clothing. He also says the schedule for constructing and fitting some of the costumes got severely backlogged, and it was common for someone to get a call to be fitted for a costume needed in a scene that had already been filmed a week or two before.

Maybe they just had too big a costume budget and got over-ambitious...?

Also, in Star Trek Movie Memories, William Shatner indicates the costumes were uncomfortable for a reason other than hurting their backs. The trousers were very snug in the crotch, and if a male actor sat down too quickly, he'd get pinched in a tender place.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

A bit of an exaggeration perhaps, but it's not very different from giving movie World War II planes photon torpedoes!

Not an exaggeration at all. That's another thing I think of whenever I watch that scene with the torpedo being loaded. The only other time we see anything like that is during The Undiscovered Country, another Meyer product. One of the VHS releases contains footage not in the original film release, including a scene in which Scotty informs Spock that he's manually counted every torpedo on board the ship and determined that Enterprise didn't fire as originally thought.

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?

I always figured that was just because it was a training vessel -- that they made the cadets do everything manually so that they'd be able to cope in an emergency, or just to teach them discipline and a work ethic, or whatever.