Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

[mirandafave]

Another tense segment. When something goes right something else seems to go wrong. Again, the scenes with Macet and Berat in them were compelling and engrossing. The story moves forward even as we learn more about Cardassian servitude and loyalty to their state. Berat allows the Dominion to come ever closer knowing it might very well spell disaster for the plan but to act otherwise would betray the plan. You made a Cardassian virtue a plot device to rack up the tension. Great work.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Thanks! I've tried to keep that element of chaos in the battle without going to far in either direction. I just try to see where things are obviously going to go wrong. Like when I realized Iymender would also be in the situation of dropping from almost ceiling level--I love him to bits, but I just couldn't see it going well!

 

[Marie1]

I'm conflicted- I'm both surprised that there hasn't been more betrayal up til now... and really disappointed that there has been- especially the Cardassians. I had hoped that the good of Cardassia would trump the "good job" pat on the head a Cardassian would get from a Vorta for betraying his people.

I love the humour in here despite the danger- it makes everything better in a bad situation, keeps people... I dunno... hopeful?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm conflicted- I'm both surprised that there hasn't been more betrayal up til now... and really disappointed that there has been- especially the Cardassians. I had hoped that the good of Cardassia would trump the "good job" pat on the head a Cardassian would get from a Vorta for betraying his people.

Of course, to a pretty fair number of Cardassians, that's exactly how they see loyalty--they feel like they're doing right if they get that pat on the head and they're left alone (i.e. no harassment from Obsidian Order/Central Command). They've been indoctrinated to be that way--the state wants unquestioning obedience. And Dukat, Damar (at first), and now Broca have all been saying that obeying the Dominion is the official party line.

That's why the rebellion didn't happen until someone VERY prominent (i.e. Damar) came out and advocated for it. Even the four guls in my story seem to have given pause about really starting in full force without Damar's orders (though they'd been preparing well before then and I think that they would have eventually done it on their own...though it would've been interesting to see how long it would take).

I love the humour in here despite the danger- it makes everything better in a bad situation, keeps people... I dunno... hopeful?

I think it naturally happens...people do that lest the situation really get to them.

 

[Aquehonga]

"Sigils & Unions" is very good Nerys 64

Better than alot of Pocket Books' TrekLit I've read.

Thor Damar wrote some aficionadofic yes? Never got round to his stories

 

[RevdKathy]

Please don't spam the forum with silly smilie-packed posts, Aquehonga. You can make your post without making it hard to read.

 

[Thor Damar]

"Sigils & Unions" is very good Nerys 64

Better than alot of Pocket Books' TrekLit I've read.

Thor Damar wrote some aficionadofic yes? Never got round to his stories

yes I have, Ten days on Cardassia which is on a hiatus (as you americans might say) and Checkmate; a tale of the Klingon/Cardassian war which I will update in a few days once I've gotten over my writers block.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've just opened a separate thread in this section of the board where I answer about the issues that came up last night/today--I don't want to see my thread do a crash-and-burn, as I think that could be very unpleasant to me and the audience.

Please visit here to continue that part of the discussion: http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=87322

Hmm... good point. Up til Damar's rebellion, they probably would have brushed off the fact they were losing territory til after, thinking everything would be split after complete victory. Or like you say, obedience to the state is so important to them that they are thrilled with any commendation, like the guy that betrayed the Cardassians that Damar, Kira and co were going to meet.

For Cardassians to even think that they wouldn't be victorious seems to have bordered on treason under their system. Remember that even in their literature, Cardassia always wins, whether it be against external enemies (i.e. the discussion of Meditations on a Crimson Shadow) or internal ones (i.e. Shoggoth's enigma tales).

The way Garak and others talk suggest that obedience to the state IS everything to a lot of Cardassians.

I think maybe that's the difference between them, and my four guls (and by extension the crews under them): to my four guls, it's a certain ideal of the state that is key. And because of that...they're able to recognize and oppose deviations from that ideal. Their mindset allows them to take that giant leap, even though it came with great difficulty for them.

Now, that idea is spreading, especially now that Damar stood up in public and though he may not have said it in so many words, he illustrated it to be true...that sometimes you must oppose those in power in order to preserve the ideal.

I love it- don't stop!
And I like this regular humour in a tense situation better then in some shows/episodes where something funny happens exclusively before a tragic death.

That's always a downer.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

May I please ask that this be moved to the "Reading Preferences" thread that I set aside specifically for this discussion?

Thanks.

 

[TerriO]

Consider it moved, and I'll move any other posts on that subject that I see over there as well. Notify me if I miss anything.

I apologize. I didn't mean to sidetrack anything.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

No problem!

I'm hoping maybe a few others will jump in and offer their feedback? As I move further into the battle, I'm going further and further out of familiar territory, so I'd definitely like to get an idea of what is and isn't working before I release other sections.

 

[Marie1]

Hmm... good point. Up til Damar's rebellion, they probably would have brushed off the fact they were losing territory til after, thinking everything would be split after complete victory. Or like you say, obedience to the state is so important to them that they are thrilled with any commendation, like the guy that betrayed the Cardassians that Damar, Kira and co were going to meet.

For Cardassians to even think that they wouldn't be victorious seems to have bordered on treason under their system. Remember that even in their literature, Cardassia always wins, whether it be against external enemies (i.e. the discussion of Meditations on a Crimson Shadow) or internal ones (i.e. Shoggoth's enigma tales).

The way Garak and others talk suggest that obedience to the state IS everything to a lot of Cardassians.

Hmmm... that's true. And it runs deep. It also seems to handicap them at times, the belief that they can't lose and are totally superior- the Klingons feel that way, the Romulans do etc. It prevents them recognizing limitations, especially when there is no way to win. That's fine for arrogant leaders, but I feel bad for the rank and file, as it were. :S

I think maybe that's the difference between them, and my four guls (and by extension the crews under them): to my four guls, it's a certain ideal of the state that is key. And because of that...they're able to recognize and oppose deviations from that ideal. Their mindset allows them to take that giant leap, even though it came with great difficulty for them.

Now, that idea is spreading, especially now that Damar stood up in public and though he may not have said it in so many words, he illustrated it to be true...that sometimes you must oppose those in power in order to preserve the ideal.

It has a more realistic and thoughtful quality to it, and something that will benefit more of the overall population.

And I like this regular humour in a tense situation better then in some shows/episodes where something funny happens exclusively before a tragic death.

That's always a downer.

Especially when you see it coming, so you can't even think about the funny bits, it's just like, they're going to kill someone... who?

 

[Mistral]

That last segment was quite good-and your Mathenite is proving quite formidable in a fight. Keep going!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

That last segment was quite good-and your Mathenite is proving quite formidable in a fight. Keep going!

Thanks! Yeah, she's got a lot of power in a small package, kind of like the lupine/feline species of Earth.

That said...Mathenites don't usually involve themselves in war; Te-Mae-Do is unusual in that regard. Her people have a lot of strength, but something tells me that their beliefs usually only allow them to use it on predators and prey, and that like the Native Americans, they believe they must eat what they kill (and ALL parts they can eat), so as not to be wasteful of life. Not sure how she fits into society, or IF she even does, but that's kind of what I imagine.

And Marie--you're definitely right that the old way is a handicap. But even with those who think past the absolute unquestioning obedience...I still want them to stay...CARDASSIAN. I still want them to have that deep patriotism and loyalty, where rebellion is only a last resort but at least considered.

 

[Marie1]

And Marie--you're definitely right that the old way is a handicap. But even with those who think past the absolute unquestioning obedience...I still want them to stay...CARDASSIAN. I still want them to have that deep patriotism and loyalty, where rebellion is only a last resort but at least considered.

That's probably because you like to respect alien cultures for what they are, their uniqueness etc. Not the Federation's shining a human/vulcan etc. magnifying glass on them.

You're not trying to assimilate them, or make them into human standards, your showing Cardassians for who they are, and also showing (unlike we often saw in ST) the "good" ones who felt for people in distress, and wanted to do things for the right reasons, even tho it may temporarily go against the grain... because if doing the right thing was so easy... everyone would do it.

 

[Thor Damar]

^ Well put!

It's exactly what makes this such a compelling story, the various shades of gray. What does betrayal mean to a Cardassian and how do they fit into their societies and is there really such a thing as a 'good guy' Cardassian? I don't think the simplistic morality of the American western really leads itself to such a complex people.

Basically I love this story and can't wait to read more. Bravo!
(and long live Cardassia!)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And Marie--you're definitely right that the old way is a handicap. But even with those who think past the absolute unquestioning obedience...I still want them to stay...CARDASSIAN. I still want them to have that deep patriotism and loyalty, where rebellion is only a last resort but at least considered.

That's probably because you like to respect alien cultures for what they are, their uniqueness etc. Not the Federation's shining a human/vulcan etc. magnifying glass on them.

Eww, I get a creepy image there--more like a magnifying glass frying an ant. Something destructive to what it focuses on.

Definitely not what I want to do!

You're not trying to assimilate them, or make them into human standards, your showing Cardassians for who they are, and also showing (unlike we often saw in ST) the "good" ones who felt for people in distress, and wanted to do things for the right reasons, even tho it may temporarily go against the grain... because if doing the right thing was so easy... everyone would do it.

Exactly. We like to think that's a strictly Cardassian trait to say/do nothing when something is going on that's wrong--but that's definitely something we have to fight against ourselves.

^ Well put!

It's exactly what makes this such a compelling story, the various shades of gray. What does betrayal mean to a Cardassian and how do they fit into their societies and is there really such a thing as a 'good guy' Cardassian? I don't think the simplistic morality of the American western really leads itself to such a complex people.

Basically I love this story and can't wait to read more. Bravo!
(and long live Cardassia!)

Thanks!

I think different Cardassians have a different idea of what it means. Even in THIS group there are some different definitions. I sure can't imagine Speros agreeing with Berat on that, for instance!

 

[Marie1]

And Marie--you're definitely right that the old way is a handicap. But even with those who think past the absolute unquestioning obedience...I still want them to stay...CARDASSIAN. I still want them to have that deep patriotism and loyalty, where rebellion is only a last resort but at least considered.

That's probably because you like to respect alien cultures for what they are, their uniqueness etc. Not the Federation's shining a human/vulcan etc. magnifying glass on them.

Eww, I get a creepy image there--more like a magnifying glass frying an ant. Something destructive to what it focuses on.

Definitely not what I want to do!

Okay, we'll reword it.. how about a filter not a magnifying glass? That makes more sense...

You're not trying to assimilate them, or make them into human standards, your showing Cardassians for who they are, and also showing (unlike we often saw in ST) the "good" ones who felt for people in distress, and wanted to do things for the right reasons, even tho it may temporarily go against the grain... because if doing the right thing was so easy... everyone would do it.

Exactly. We like to think that's a strictly Cardassian trait to say/do nothing when something is going on that's wrong--but that's definitely something we have to fight against ourselves.

Oh, I agree completely! TBH, I'm a bit fond of Cardassia's swift justice of some crimes, their more decisive action. I think if that were put into practice here, you would see a reduction in rape, murder and abuse. If you knew that the punishment would be terrible, you'd learn to control youself. If you know that there will be years of court cases, a bunch of appeals, and a cell with good food, excercise, free cable etc... well, it's a pretty terrible deterrent. I'm not saying prison is fun, but the judicial system does a poor job of favouring the victims IMO.

I don't think the simplistic morality of the American western really leads itself to such a complex people.

I agree.

Now that I've finished reading Betrayal, on the note of Berat, he seems like a smart, compassionate person who was in a hopeless situation and who needed a break. Also someone who would do the right thing if he could. So I can say at this point that I think you're representing his personality correctly, though since he's never appears on the series, though for some reason I thought he did... one of the Cardassians was in the Wounded other than Occet, right? But with only Betrayal in mind, I'll have to take a closer read of your Berat now...

I'm curious, why did you have him injured again in your fiction? To make the damage worse so he'd have to learn to trust others, and so others would see his loyalty and good leadership without all his physical abilities?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

That's probably because you like to respect alien cultures for what they are, their uniqueness etc. Not the Federation's shining a human/vulcan etc. magnifying glass on them.

Eww, I get a creepy image there--more like a magnifying glass frying an ant. Something destructive to what it focuses on.

Definitely not what I want to do!

Okay, we'll reword it.. how about a filter not a magnifying glass? That makes more sense...

Yeah.

And speaking of filters, it's also fun to look at the other Trek races through a (moderate) Cardassian filter.

Exactly. We like to think that's a strictly Cardassian trait to say/do nothing when something is going on that's wrong--but that's definitely something we have to fight against ourselves.

Oh, I agree completely! TBH, I'm a bit fond of Cardassia's swift justice of some crimes, their more decisive action. I think if that were put into practice here, you would see a reduction in rape, murder and abuse. If you knew that the punishment would be terrible, you'd learn to control youself. If you know that there will be years of court cases, a bunch of appeals, and a cell with good food, excercise, free cable etc... well, it's a pretty terrible deterrent. I'm not saying prison is fun, but the judicial system does a poor job of favouring the victims IMO.[/quote]

No kidding.

And if anyone EVER touches a child...!

Now that I've finished reading Betrayal, on the note of Berat, he seems like a smart, compassionate person who was in a hopeless situation and who needed a break. Also someone who would do the right thing if he could. So I can say at this point that I think you're representing his personality correctly, though since he's never appears on the series, though for some reason I thought he did... one of the Cardassians was in the Wounded other than Occet, right? But with only Betrayal in mind, I'll have to take a closer read of your Berat now...

Daro was the other one who appeared in "The Wounded," the guy who went to Ten-Forward with O'Brien and ended up being snapped at twice.

I definitely look forward to what you think of Berat in both this and "Let He Who Has Eyes See," now that you've read Betrayal. And I'm going to e-mail you a little fun I had, shortly...

I'm curious, why did you have him injured again in your fiction? To make the damage worse so he'd have to learn to trust others, and so others would see his loyalty and good leadership without all his physical abilities?

Well...the latter explanation is a part of it.

But the majority of it may surprise you. In Betrayal you see him in a very rough state mentally/emotionally, and don't get to see the full potential of his strength.

The Volan III mission and the fallout from that...Berat may be worse off physically, but I really feel like I have a great opportunity to show (to borrow a phrase from Rush) grace under pressure. Sure, his circumstances aren't the best they could be, but I enjoy writing him from a much stronger position mentally and emotionally. I enjoy showing how the maturity and experience of seven years have let him grow. And that growth means that (to my mind), he was ready to bear this gracefully. In his case...what didn't kill him made him stronger as a person. I want people to see that in him and really respect him.

That kind of inner strength is an absolute essential for someone who's going to participate in an outright rebellion. I also think it's important to the team he's with, too, even though certain people (Speros!) don't see it.

 

[Marie1]

Okay, we'll reword it.. how about a filter not a magnifying glass? That makes more sense...

Yeah.

And speaking of filters, it's also fun to look at the other Trek races through a (moderate) Cardassian filter.

Also true...
I liked Garak in... that novel where he goes to earth with Sisko and finds out that people on earth have the right to protest etc.

Oh, I agree completely! TBH, I'm a bit fond of Cardassia's swift justice of some crimes, their more decisive action. I think if that were put into practice here, you would see a reduction in rape, murder and abuse. If you knew that the punishment would be terrible, you'd learn to control youself. If you know that there will be years of court cases, a bunch of appeals, and a cell with good food, excercise, free cable etc... well, it's a pretty terrible deterrent. I'm not saying prison is fun, but the judicial system does a poor job of favouring the victims IMO.

No kidding.

And if anyone EVER touches a child...!

Also true- that is showing up more and more on the news. Is there something in the water??

Daro was the other one who appeared in "The Wounded," the guy who went to Ten-Forward with O'Brien and ended up being snapped at twice.

I definitely look forward to what you think of Berat in both this and "Let He Who Has Eyes See," now that you've read Betrayal. And I'm going to e-mail you a little fun I had, shortly...

Yes!! Daro!
And thanks for the email- that was hilarious!!

I'm curious, why did you have him injured again in your fiction? To make the damage worse so he'd have to learn to trust others, and so others would see his loyalty and good leadership without all his physical abilities?

Well...the latter explanation is a part of it.

But the majority of it may surprise you. In Betrayal you see him in a very rough state mentally/emotionally, and don't get to see the full potential of his strength.

The Volan III mission and the fallout from that...Berat may be worse off physically, but I really feel like I have a great opportunity to show (to borrow a phrase from Rush) grace under pressure. Sure, his circumstances aren't the best they could be, but I enjoy writing him from a much stronger position mentally and emotionally. I enjoy showing how the maturity and experience of seven years have let him grow. And that growth means that (to my mind), he was ready to bear this gracefully. In his case...what didn't kill him made him stronger as a person. I want people to see that in him and really respect him.

That kind of inner strength is an absolute essential for someone who's going to participate in an outright rebellion. I also think it's important to the team he's with, too, even though certain people (Speros!) don't see it.

Makes sense to me- especially since he was going to have a disability regardless. If that hadn't happened, the problem may have manifested itself only in the worst of times, with devastating consequences that would have ruined his career, and possibly cost lives.