Star Trek: Shaping a Cardassian

[TerokNor]

Ohh...and open end sort of. *G* Will you answer that Federation Question at one time?

*applouds to the story* I enjoyed reading it very much and I think that military coup was the cardassian way, but with Jarol and Brenok being part of the high ranking ones/ government something good has to come out of it.

What happend to Garak? As he talked with Ghemor I suppose he was on his side? Did he went home as well? Home on Cardassia? Or home to the Federation?

Also looking very much forward to read more details about Karama and Kapoor in the other story.

TerokNor

P.S. And I find the date (3.october) very nice, that they sort of come outside there borders again and open up again somewhat. *G*

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Ohh...and open end sort of. *G* Will you answer that Federation Question at one time?

Well, life goes on, so I couldn't bring it to a particular closure

What happend to Garak? As he talked with Ghemor I suppose he was on his side? Did he went home as well? Home on Cardassia? Or home to the Federation?

I don't know what happened to Garak, you have to ask him if he chose to stay on Cardassian or leave again. They wouldn't interfere with his choice.

*applouds to the story* I enjoyed reading it very much and I think that military coup was the cardassian way, but with Jarol and Brenok being part of the high ranking ones/ government something good has to come out of it.

Thank you

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Wow. Very powerful stuff.

I ended up with very mixed feelings at the end. For the characters personally--most of them--I was very happy. Brenok, Karama, and Kapoor all got the promotions and the appreciation they deserved.

As for Jarol and Ghemor...I still have a hard time accepting that two wrongs make a right in this situation. When your Ghemor accepted the Federation restrictions on the size of their military, that was finally the last straw for me and even I got mad at him. But even in real life, when we have had presidents engage in the absolute most foolhardy policies you can imagine (and I will absolutely not discuss who or what policies in this thread), I have a major, major problem with using force to remove that person. I mean, thank goodness they didn't kill Ghemor--but do you really think he could possibly be safe anywhere in Cardassian space after that? Maybe Jarol personally would not want him dead, but I really doubt that everyone who might be assigned to protect him would do their best job. But still...I guess I have a hard time seeing, after what Jarol did, how anything but tyranny could happen once those who took that vow not to oppress their people are dead. No Obsidian Order will help, but even a military regime can be bad enough. And I have a hard time finding that situation more right than what Ghemor was doing.

So in the end, I am still not quite sure what kind of person Jarol is, nor am I sure how I feel about her rank. I never had any doubt that she earned the rank of Gul. But I am not sure she earned the rank of Legate. On one hand I think she means well, but on the other hand, I am still not quite sure that the things she does are really good and I keep thinking there had to be a better solution.

You did a VERY good job writing this story--it's good that it made me think and that I can even disagree with it.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Well, I surely didn't mean any specific - or even not specific - situation in our own history. I thought purely about Cardassians and the way to keep them being Cardassians. Klingons have a right to remain Klingons, Romulans have a right to remain Romulans (although Spock in his Vulcan arrogance of course believes they should learn to follow Surak's teachings and become Vulcans "again"), so why Cardassians should become Federation?

I'm not so sure she had earned the rank of Gul. Dukat made her a Gul (pulling some strings), because he needed someone to manipulate and someone totally loyal to him. I don't think his appreciation to her skill was the only reason. She was very young when she was promoted and had very limited command experience.
She didn't ask to be Legate, she never wanted that much responsibility, and I think she didn't realise that planning the Shift would bring such a change for her. She wanted good, she just didn't think she would have to make that good. It was Daset's job, and Tarkans, and she would be happy to stay on her ship and go on being a good Gul, leading Corak's crew.

Well, if the story leaves you scratching your head and wondering, and disagreeing too - then I've achieved my goal

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, I surely didn't mean any specific - or even not specific - situation in our own history. I thought purely about Cardassians and the way to keep them being Cardassians. Klingons have a right to remain Klingons, Romulans have a right to remain Romulans (although Spock in his Vulcan arrogance of course believes they should learn to follow Surak's teachings and become Vulcans "again"), so why Cardassians should become Federation?

I think the question with Spock would be, who invited him? If a group of underground Romulans invited him because that was what they wanted, then I have no problem with that. People can desire to change their cultures of their own will. Even though I don't like Vulcan culture all that much, if it was their idea rather than his I wouldn't mind, and may the best idea (his or theirs) win. If it's him forcing his ways upon people, then I don't approve. Honestly, I'm not sure which way it was in that episode...it's been too many years.

I guess it all comes down to the question of "what makes a Cardassian." I think you and I may answer that question a bit differently...I tend to write with the premise that when Akleen's revolution happened they lost something that was a legitimate part of them--that there is more to them than outsiders, or even many of their own people realize. Mine definitely aren't the Federation and never will be, whatever universe you put them in, but I also don't accept the military/Obsidian Order regime as the true soul of their people either.

I'm not so sure she had earned the rank of Gul. Dukat made her a Gul (pulling some strings), because he needed someone to manipulate and someone totally loyal to him. I don't think his appreciation to her skill was the only reason. She was very young when she was promoted and had very limited command experience.

The difference in my mind is that she did not intend to ascend to power over Corak's dead body. No action that she took, directly or indirectly, brought that situation to pass. She didn't kill Corak or even want him dead. And I also don't believe she liked Dukat being sexually attracted to her or encouraged that in any way. And while she was young, she did have the necessary skills for the position.

She didn't ask to be Legate, she never wanted that much responsibility, and I think she didn't realise that planning the Shift would bring such a change for her. She wanted good, she just didn't think she would have to make that good. It was Daset's job, and Tarkans, and she would be happy to stay on her ship and go on being a good Gul, leading Corak's crew.

Still, what makes me say that she did not deserve this promotion is that she is BEING the Nadar or Dukat in this situation. Whatever power she got from this, she got it by a means that I think was not right--not because someone else put her in that position, but because of her own actions.

Maybe, IF she can be a leader with a conscience, IF she can actually use that power for good, she can come to deserve that rank more. But right now, I still think this is the promotion she didn't deserve, not the one to gul.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I think the question with Spock would be, who invited him? If a group of underground Romulans invited him because that was what they wanted, then I have no problem with that. People can desire to change their cultures of their own will. Even though I don't like Vulcan culture all that much, if it was their idea rather than his I wouldn't mind, and may the best idea (his or theirs) win. If it's him forcing his ways upon people, then I don't approve. Honestly, I'm not sure which way it was in that episode...it's been too many years.

I don't remember either, so can say for sure. I think he was invited, but still, it was a small group of Romulans. No all Romulans wanted to be "converter" and Spock's approach seemed to be: "you'll be better". So those, who wouldn't choose to follow, would be considered worse and looked down upon?

I guess it all comes down to the question of "what makes a Cardassian." I think you and I may answer that question a bit differently...I tend to write with the premise that when Akleen's revolution happened they lost something that was a legitimate part of them--that there is more to them than outsiders, or even many of their own people realize. Mine definitely aren't the Federation and never will be, whatever universe you put them in, but I also don't accept the military/Obsidian Order regime as the true soul of their people either.

I think they need a strong leadership, which would be an answer - and reaction - to their hierarchy instincts. Not necessarily in the form of a military coup, but the end of DS9 and then A Stitch in Time made Cardassia something I didn't like and didn't see Cardassian. They destroyed what was unique about Cardassians.

I wanted to bring it back to a Cardassia style we knew and take it from there.
And to show that for some people the Central Command's rule wasn't necessarily a personification of evil. Some people functioned in this system and they didn't have to be total ba$%$rds. Brenok supported the coup, and he had served Cardassian governments faithfully, but is he a bad person? Whatever were his personal thoughts and opinions, he never became a dissident, so there was something there in the old system that worked for him.

There is a difference, though. It's not visible, but a lot happened during those 17 years. It will all be explained in the next story, which picks up shortly after this conference and will slowly explain what Cardassian is like now, in 2396.

I want to skip the process of reaching this point, because I think it would be boring. No story, a social/political study

Still, what makes me say that she did not deserve this promotion is that she is BEING the Nadar or Dukat in this situation.

Ouch, that hurts.

Maybe, IF she can be a leader with a conscience, IF she can actually use that power for good, she can come to deserve that rank more. But right now, I still think this is the promotion she didn't deserve, not the one to gul.

Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't remember either, so can say for sure. I think he was invited, but still, it was a small group of Romulans. No all Romulans wanted to be "converter" and Spock's approach seemed to be: "you'll be better". So those, who wouldn't choose to follow, would be considered worse and looked down upon?

That would be the real determinant of how I would think of it. If there were multiple cultures able to coexist within Romulan space, or if the Romulans decided over generations that they wanted something different and did it, I would be fine with it. Imposing it by any kind of coercion or arrogance I wouldn't support.

I wanted to bring it back to a Cardassia style we knew and take it from there.
And to show that for some people the Central Command's rule wasn't necessarily a personification of evil. Some people functioned in this system and they didn't have to be total ba$%$rds. Brenok supported the coup, and he had served Cardassian governments faithfully, but is he a bad person? Whatever were his personal thoughts and opinions, he never became a dissident, so there was something there in the old system that worked for him.

But the old system ruled by fear, not by legitimate power. So Brenok could easily have not become a dissident because of fear for his life (before they were killed) that of his family.

Still, what makes me say that she did not deserve this promotion is that she is BEING the Nadar or Dukat in this situation.

Ouch, that hurts.

Not intended in a personal manner, of course. It's the parallel in the actions of the three characters I'm referring to. Each deposed a group whose power was more legitimate than theirs, to become what they were. Dukat overthrew the Detapa Council, Nadar overthrew Corak, and Jarol overthrew Ghemor. Your Ghemor wasn't the best, but the system he represented would've offered an opportunity to deal with the problem in another way.

Maybe, IF she can be a leader with a conscience, IF she can actually use that power for good, she can come to deserve that rank more. But right now, I still think this is the promotion she didn't deserve, not the one to gul.

Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?

That would be helpful. Of course, I think they could easily devolve into figureheads once Jarol herself, and the others, are gone. What prevents that?

 

[Gul Re'jal]

But the old system ruled by fear, not by legitimate power. So Brenok could easily have not become a dissident because of fear for his life (before they were killed) that of his family.

Did you get that impression? That Brenok was a scared man, who would follow any order our of fear? Did he join the military to pretend he was loyal so that he and his family would be safe in the system?

And they won't rule by fear.

I didn't think about it earlier, but in my country's history there was a coup, which brought dictatorship, but by no means a totalitarian rule of cruelty and fear.

Your Ghemor wasn't the best, but the system he represented would've offered an opportunity to deal with the problem in another way.

And they formed their political group/party to do just that. However things got our of hands.
I never said they were ideal They just saw that things don't go the right direction and believed they had a solution and knew how to fix it. If they were right or wrong...

Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?

That would be helpful. Of course, I think they could easily devolve into figureheads once Jarol herself, and the others, are gone. What prevents that?

No one can assure that next ones would be better or as good (if current ones are good). What would prevent Ghemor's successor from changing Ghemor's reforms or twisting his style of ruling Cardassia? No one can give such guarantees.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

But the old system ruled by fear, not by legitimate power. So Brenok could easily have not become a dissident because of fear for his life (before they were killed) that of his family.

Did you get that impression? That Brenok was a scared man, who would follow any order our of fear? Did he join the military to pretend he was loyal so that he and his family would be safe in the system?

And they won't rule by fear.

I didn't think about it earlier, but in my country's history there was a coup, which brought dictatorship, but by no means a totalitarian rule of cruelty and fear.

Oh, I definitely think he had to be afraid. But I don't think of fear the same way I think you are.

He certainly had to hide his true nature when he realized that aliens weren't inferiors. He knew that he would be executed for doing the right thing and saving those girls and women on the colony world. You bet he was scared then, and he would have to remain afraid of what would happen if the Obsidian Order ever discovered his secret, or anything else--even a small thing--that they didn't think was "Cardassian enough."

He wasn't a coward--he DID act. Fear doesn't make a person a coward, in my opinion...the name for a person who isn't afraid isn't "coward," it's "idiot." And a brave person is one who does what they have to do even though they are afraid. Brenok wasn't a coward or an idiot. But I do think he had to fear exposure for who and what he really was, and had to hide that lest it backfire on him or his family. Jarol helped protect him, so I think that gave him less reason to fear, over time.

But I do think that fear is a legitimate and rational response when you live in a place where you're threatened just for being a decent person.

Would you believe that she has a team of civilian advisers, and she made it a point to have at least two of each non-Cardassian race, including humans from former Federation colonies?

That would be helpful. Of course, I think they could easily devolve into figureheads once Jarol herself, and the others, are gone. What prevents that?

No one can assure that next ones would be better or as good (if current ones are good). What would prevent Ghemor's successor from changing Ghemor's reforms or twisting his style of ruling Cardassia? No one can give such guarantees.

I can certainly think of a country or two where that happened. Still, if set up correctly, a democratic system does offer protections against those sorts of things happening. What makes the difference between the countries where it went bad, and the countries where it has been successful is that you have to think of the rules as something outside of yourself, not something you can bend to your will. In other words, if you're the ruler, you are not at the top of the hierarchy; you answer to the law too.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

But I do think that fear is a legitimate and rational response when you live in a place where you're threatened just for being a decent person.

And that's why Brenok is going to look over Jarol
s shoulder to make sure she doesn't do the same thing to other decent people.

In other words, if you're the ruler, you are not at the top of the hierarchy; you answer to the law too.

Agreed.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

But I do think that fear is a legitimate and rational response when you live in a place where you're threatened just for being a decent person.

And that's why Brenok is going to look over Jarol
s shoulder to make sure she doesn't do the same thing to other decent people.

I'll be interested to see how the two of them keep up now that one's on Cardassia Prime and one is on the Roumar. Especially since if they go back to something like the old ways, it will be very tempting not to want to even hear disagreement.