Spoilers STAR TREK: SECTION 31 - Grading & Discussion

[eschaton]

Because I think the original idea for the show was that Georgiou was sent back to the DSC era, since not only would San be the correct age, but Georgiou would as well. Everyone is pointing out San’s age discrepancy, but no one (either fans or the characters themselves) are pointing out that Georgiou should be older as well as far as the other characters are concerned (the Section 31 briefing did not say that Georgiou traveled back from the 32nd century, only that she fell off their radar in the 2250’s. If it’s now 2324, in their minds Georgiou should have looked 70-something years older. Yet nobody mentions this.) But for some reason yet unknown to me, they added the Garrett character and moved the time period to 2324 despite Garrett really just being a generic Starfleet officer and nothing about the movie really gives any indication of the period other than the stardate.

I think they were considering various options. At one point they were supposedly considering a near-present Section 31 show, where Georgiou founded the organization. But the end of Terra Firma Part 2 kept it vague enough that the Guardian of Forever could have sent her anywhere.

Also, my recollection was that San was intended to be Georgiou's son, not her lover. And, looking back at the script, it seems likely:

G: And perhaps your Philippa was destined for her end as well.
M: You are my Philippa.
G: Michael…
M: I mean, what I feel for you… belongs to you. No one else.
G: I wish I’d learned all this before now. I had a chance, once, long ago. He was called San. I wish I told you about him.

It would be profoundly weird, given the mother-daughter like relationship between Georgiou and Michael, for Georgiou to compare her to a lover. So I just took it to mean she had a son, who died.

A son, rather than an ex-lover, would have made this movie 1000% times better. Even if she killed him. Especially if she killed him.

 

[HotRod]

Vaadwaur in the Alpha Quadrant in the 2320s?

They got around.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

You COULD say this is set in the 23rd century and match it to the Discovery and TOS 23rd century stardates IF you want to go with the idea that Rachel Garrett isn't native to the 24th century, just ignore any background images with a random 24th century date, and say Georgiou screwed up estimating Alok's age.

That maybe through some service in Starfleet or Section 31 she ends up in the 24th century through time travel and after getting there eventually ends up as the captain of the Enterprise-C.

Nah, I am chalking it up to different ways to establish stardates and this being Garrett in the 2320's or thereabouts, eventually assuming command of 1701-C.

Now, I found it weird that Starfleet can't go into that sector, but yet Starfleet officers are sent there. Is it to be kind of a Mission: Impossible setup, where if she's caught or killed, Starfleet will disavow all knowledge of her actions? If Section 31 is to be autonomous, why is Starfleet sending oversight?

 

[HotRod]

I think it does. It's gonna need a complete restructuring to match SNW's.profile....

Hardly. Certainly lines up significantly better than the TOS Enterprise.

 

[Dukhat]

I think they were considering various options. At one point they were supposedly considering a near-present Section 31 show, where Georgiou founded the organization. But the end of Terra Firma Part 2 kept it vague enough that the Guardian of Forever could have sent her anywhere.
Also, my recollection was that San was intended to be Georgiou's son, not her lover. And, looking back at the script, it seems likely:



It would be profoundly weird, given the mother-daughter like relationship between Georgiou and Michael, for Georgiou to compare her to a lover. So I just took it to mean she had a son, who died.

A son, rather than an ex-lover, would have made this movie 1000% times better. Even if she killed him. Especially if she killed him.

Yeah, I agree with your interpretation of those lines. However, it still doesn’t solve the problem of how nobody acknowledges Georgiou and San’s age discrepancy.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

A few days later...

Looking at this grading and some others online, it's almost right down the middle, in fact it's picked up some ground here.

The idea this is a STV or Generations style disaster doesn't hold much water, and is just so much hyped up silliness.

So we can agree reactions are "mixed" but a lot of people also enjoyed it.

Furthermore reports are it's doing well on Paramount +, so there's a lot of hysterics over nothing.

Isn't that the definition of Trekkies?

Absolute nonsense.

And this trendy thing over the last few days to dump on STV is bollix. Ya it's one of the worst Trek movies but not even the worst and is regarded as bad for Trek not plain bad like this mess.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Hardly. Certainly lines up significantly better than the TOS Enterprise.

I thought the same as soon as I saw Enterprise show up at the end of the first season of DSC. This version would look more like a refit version, as opposed to almost the entire ship being rebuilt from scratch, SNW to TMP looks more like a structural progression with the primary and secondary hulls, instead of looking like they built a whole new ship.

 

[jackoverfull]

THE ORVILLE isn't anything like TNG beyond the fact that they hired some TNG veterans like the cinematographer to replicate the aesthetic. The characters in that show definitely don't behave like those on TNG, which likely put him off. We never see Picard call Riker a dick.

I find it has a lot in common with voyager, not tng.

 

[Citiprime]

I thought the same as soon as I saw Enterprise show up at the end of the first season of DSC. This version would look more like a refit version, as opposed to almost the entire ship being rebuilt from scratch, SNW to TMP looks more like a structural progression with the primary and secondary hulls, instead of looking like they built a whole new ship.

Although, arguably, the dialogue in the movie would match more with the TOS version, since the characters make clear the TMP version is a "redesigned" and "new" Enterprise.

KIRK: Why aren't the Enterprise transporters operating, Mister Scott?​

SCOTT: A wee problem, sir, really. Just temporary. Admiral, we have just spent eighteen months redesigning and refitting the Enterprise. How in the name of hell do they expect to have her ready in twelve hours?​

---

DECKER: You personally, are assuming command?​

​

KIRK: Yeah.​

​

DECKER: May I ask? Why?​

​

KIRK: My experience, five years out there dealing with unknowns like this, my familiarity with the Enterprise, this crew.​

​

DECKER: Admiral, this is an almost totally new Enterprise. You don't know her a tenth as well as I do.​

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Although, arguably, the dialogue in the movie would matches more with the TOS version, since the characters make clear the TMP version is a "redesigned" and "new" Enterprise.

KIRK: Why aren't the Enterprise transporters operating, Mister Scott?​

SCOTT: A wee problem, sir, really. Just temporary. Admiral, we have just spent eighteen months redesigning and refitting the Enterprise. How in the name of hell do they expect to have her ready in twelve hours?​

---

DECKER: You personally, are assuming command?​

​

KIRK: Yeah.​

​

DECKER: May I ask? Why?​

​

KIRK: My experience, five years out there dealing with unknowns like this, my familiarity with the Enterprise, this crew.​

​

DECKER: Admiral, this is an almost totally new Enterprise. You don't know her a tenth as well as I do.​

Oh, I definitely think of that as well. I've had that movie ingrained in my memory for 45 years this past December, lol! To me, it's something I don't live hard and fast with the SNW version being the one refit or the TOS version. Either way, she was completely updated inside and out. Main thing: even at 7 years old seeing the refit come into full view on screen in drydock, hearing the theater clap and cheer is something I still remember, with my Dad saying, "Yeah!"

 

[UssGlenn]

Nah, I am chalking it up to different ways to establish stardates and this being Garrett in the 2320's or thereabouts, eventually assuming command of 1701-C.

Well, it matches new TNG stardate system for 2324. Considering the time they picked, it was barely over a year since Stardate 0. That could be a fun hook for a story, what happened to cause them to reset the Stardates? Had to be something big.

 

[HotRod]

I thought the same as soon as I saw Enterprise show up at the end of the first season of DSC. This version would look more like a refit version, as opposed to almost the entire ship being rebuilt from scratch, SNW to TMP looks more like a structural progression with the primary and secondary hulls, instead of looking like they built a whole new ship.

Works even better when you throw in the NX-01 and NX-01 Refit. There's a real sense of design progression.

 

[fireproof78]

I thought the same as soon as I saw Enterprise show up at the end of the first season of DSC. This version would look more like a refit version, as opposed to almost the entire ship being rebuilt from scratch, SNW to TMP looks more like a structural progression with the primary and secondary hulls, instead of looking like they built a whole new ship.

Yeah, going from TOS to TMP is a stretch for me.

The Refit is gorgeous. The in universe logic is hard to swallow.

 

[Dar70]

Hardly. Certainly lines up significantly better than the TOS Enterprise.

The entire lower hull and saucer are completely different. They copied the angle nacelles so of course they match better. Still it needs to be updated. More windows more angle on saucer edge etc. if TOS looks so archaic to everyone the same must be said about TMP....oh and.lets not forget they need to make it twice as big with a fun house turbolift Iinterior...... ...I can't wait to see what they do with TMP era...

 

[HotRod]

The entire lower hull and saucer are completely different. They copied the angle nacelles so of course they match better. Still it needs to be updated. More windows more angle on saucer edge etc. if TOS looks so archaic to everyone the same must be said about TMP....oh and.lets not forget they need to make it twice as big......

Let's not forget that the size was never firmly established in continuity. The size commonly thrown around doesn't work.

As for the difference, as the movie says, it was a pretty substantial redesign. It's just easier to look at and accept the SNW Enterprise becoming the refit than it is to accept the TOS version.

And in regard to TMP Enterprise looking archaic, the fact it was designed over a decade later with much more attention paid to surface detailing. Having a motion picture budget, as opposed to a TV budget, certainly helps. Just as Star Wars or Alien doesn't look dated, the same can be said for the TMP Enterprise.

IMO.

 

[fireproof78]

And in regard to TMP Enterprise looking archaic, the fact it was designed over a decade later with much more attention paid to surface detailing. Having a motion picture budget, as opposed to a TV budget, certainly helps. Just as Star Wars or Alien doesn't look dated, the same can be said for the TMP Enterprise.

I could get on board with this.

I love the TOS Enterprise and design language but it also feels small and like a model to me even in fan art.

 

[Dar70]

Let's not forget that the size was never firmly established in continuity. The size commonly thrown around doesn't work.

As for the difference, as the movie says, it was a pretty substantial redesign. It's just easier to look at and accept the SNW Enterprise becoming the refit than it is to accept the TOS version.

And in regard to TMP Enterprise looking archaic, the fact it was designed over a decade later with much more attention paid to surface detailing. Having a motion picture budget, as opposed to a TV budget, certainly helps. Just as Star Wars or Alien doesn't look dated, the same can be said for the TMP Enterprise.

IMO.

The Interiors look ENORMOUS. Compared to TMP. It will have to have extensive restructuring. Don't think they wouldn't do it. Because they would.

 

[fireproof78]

The Interiors look ENORMOUS. Compared to TMP. It will have to have extensive restructuring. Don't think they won't do it. Because they will.

Going from 200 to over 400 crew will do that.

Plus the rec deck never fit despite the refit.

 

[HotRod]

The Interiors look ENORMOUS. Compared to TMP. It will have to have extensive restructuring. Don't think they wouldn't do it. Because they would.

You're right, the refit does have some pretty big spaces that absolutely wouldn't fit in the TOS Enterprise.

And though it wasn't seen on screen, she's even supposed to have her own little park.

 

[Commander Troi]

So I just skipped 30+ pages of this thread. Too much!

I watched it. I was engaged. I doubt I'll ever watch it again.

I liked the space station design. I'm annoyed we never really get to learn about Deltans because they keep killing them off. I liked Quasi, but Richardson is always good. I liked Garrett too.

My hubby totally didn't buy into using the hunger games to choose an Emperor. I handwaved it.

The twist with San COULD have been good. It just wasn't.

At least Michelle looked like she was having fun.

Too bad the dialogue and directing was so damn bad. The fight between Georgiou and the MIB (was that San?) went too long.

This should've been so much better. It's a real shame.