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Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the Sky"

Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Thank you all for your insightful comments and critiques. All viewpoints are very appreciated. CorporalCaptain (is that a M*A*S*H reference?), to answer your comments:

1. Yep, escaped me for that scene. You are correct.

2. I felt that six hundred years was long enough to build up to about a 1945 or so level, given that they had a pretty good supply of high tech do-dads to begin with, even if most were destroyed.

3. Other than specifying a vaguely military look for Sarat and Kalv, I don't think I indicated any type of clothing in the script. I could be wrong. I'll look sometime soon to see.

SPOILER: In re Grigory's motivation(s). Yes. Right on some of your suppositions, except your second sentence which says "Was it for r______?" and the "insect" analogy and Preserver intent. Those three issues never entered into my thinking. Sorry for the vagueness, but I'm too lazy at the moment to look up the spoiler code to hide my answers.

Best,

Sir Rhosis
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

The spoiler code is most easily done via the spoiler button (x mouthed smiley) in the Advanced editor.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

We were shooting in 95-98 F weather with humidity around 70%, even though we weren't in direct sunlight. The scene where they are walking around as viewed from above was shot from an overlook built above the river. Unfortunately, there was a drought that year and the river was dry. The alien looking trees are just the roots and bases of the Black Cyprus.

So, no, we tried not to overdo the clothing for our all too Human cast members. Even so, there was one day (when we shot in the physical set of the T'Mek city) when we had three cast members practically faint, and we had to stop filming to perform first aid and rehydrate them immediately. Sunstroke is a serious matter in the Deep South.

Lastly, if you'd like to know more about the location we shot TNTSFFTS, I'd like to direct you to this site: http://www.exploresouthernhistory.com/radiumsprings.html. To show how severe the drought was, the bottom left picture is the usual view from the gazebo that served as Sarat's HQ. The top left picture is the area we shot ARCHWAY at. It's a wonderful location, and the staff was very nice!
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Thanks for the reply, Sir Rhosis.

Yes, it is Radar's imaginary rank from "Welcome to Korea" that Hawkeye made up to get Radar into the officer's club. Someone pretending to be an officer seemed like a natural inspiration for my handle on Star Trek boards, but for some reason I can't remember what the connection was.... ;)

The insect idea occurred to me as a possibility at least worth mentioning, since Grigory had admitted in his conversation with the Preserver ghost that he had killed insects before. "Sarat deserves to be squashed, probably more than the insects I've accidentally stepped on," which is a better way of expressing my thought than what I wrote the first time, seemed like it could have had a bearing on things, since all I had to do was put together pieces already laid out in dialog.

As for Preserver intent, the Preserver ghost seemed to be prodding Grigory to interfere in some way, which is exactly what he ended up doing. So, I thought it was worth exploring that possibility.

By the way, I liked the scene with the Preserver ghost. I liked the cuts which made it seem like Grigory was hallucinating.

This is probably the place to mention something, even though I suspect it may have been completely serendipitous, which is that the Preserver ghost effect looked like swirling stars. Even though Grigory's conversation happened in the daytime, my immediate thought was to wonder whether there was a connection there with the episode's title. I'd say not, since the falling stars were the Preserver spaceships arriving on Vulcan, right? Still, I thought it was an interesting coincidence.
 
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Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Yes, I realize that the Preserver ghost is prompting Grigory to interfere because either it tried and failed or perhaps because it's not a tangible thing, and literally physically can't interfere even though it would if it could.

The scene with the Preserver was directed en toto by Jeffrey Green. He explained what he wanted to do, and stepped me through each of the overlapping shots. I had a hard time at first conceptualizing what his intent was, but once we'd made some of the shots, I began to realize what he was up to. The starry effect was created by Rick Foxx. I'll ask him to address his creative choice here.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

CorporalCaptain said:
The insect idea occurred to me as a possibility at least worth mentioning, since Grigory had admitted in his conversation with the Preserver ghost that had killed insects before. "Sarat deserves to be squashed, probably more than the insects I've accidentally stepped on," which is a better way of expressing my thought than what I wrote the first time, seemed like it could have had a bearing on things, since all I had to do was put together pieces already laid out in dialog.

As for Preserver intent, the Preserver ghost seemed to be prodding Grigory to interfere in some way, which is exactly what he ended up doing. So, I thought it was worth exploring that possibility.

By the way, I liked the scene with the Preserver ghost. I liked the cuts which made it seem like Grigory was hallucinating.

This is probably the place to mention something, even though I suspect it may have been completely serendipitous, which is that the Preserver ghost effect looked like swirling stars. Even though Grigory's conversation happened in the daytime, my immediate thought was to wonder whether there was a connection there with the episode's title. I'd say not, since the falling stars were the Preserver spaceships arriving on Vulcan, right? Still, I thought it was an interesting coincidence.
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I'm glad you enjoyed the episode! I certainly didn't consider falling stars when I chose the effects for that scene, but that's a great connection nonetheless. Maybe I'll retroactively use that explanation :techman:.

My intent was to highlight that Grigory was communicating with a non-corporeal being, so the particles were soft and undefined.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Ya know, I'm glad people like the above-mentioned scene, because I'm not sure I do. Not for the way it was acted, or directed, but I sometimes wonder if perhaps I could have found another way to show Grigory decide once and for all that he was not going to interfere.

Sir Rhosis
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Potemkin_Prod said:
Thank you, John (CorporalCaptain)!

Really nice of you to comment! I think you're right about that plot hole!

Glad you liked T'Noshi! Christin Woods is an excellent actress!

Regarding your question about the spoiler, I have no definitive answer. We see this happen, and we're each to draw our own conclusion about the motivation. Me, I think it's more of a combination of things that lead to Grigory's decision.

Interestingly enough, we gave Director and Star Jeffrey Green a choice of options regarding the conclusion, and he went with the darkest choice.

Thanks again for the feedback! Stay tuned for next month's release!
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Some thoughts on the ending...

The only thing we know for sure is that Gregory shot Serat with his phaser. We don't know if he died for certain. Yes, that's the first thing you think is happening, but I like the fact that it ended in a dark and mysterious way. If we learn that the good captain had the phaser on kill and he died, I'm still satisfied with the ending. But in the long run I think it limits future stories with Serat as a villain. I mean he's not Vulcan or Romulan but Vulcanoid. Which makes him that more dangerous. I think he could be what Khan was for Kirk, a deadly and dangerous adversary. I mean, come on, he kills children. How much more evil can you get? As a writer I'd love to write a sequel, the potential that big. It could be epic.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

That's a very interesting point, Halliwell. It's true we don't know what setting that device was on when it was used. And you might be right about Sarat's fate and possibly future. You certainly are right about the nature of his character, though. Did you think the Odessa Steps homage was too much?
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Potemkin_Prod said:
That's a very interesting point, Halliwell. It's true we don't know what setting that device was on when it was used. And you might be right about Sarat's fate and possibly future. You certainly are right about the nature of his character, though. Did you think the Odessa Steps homage was too much?
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Definitely not. It was intense and needed to be shown. I'm reminded of the tales we've heard over the years about the Cardassian's treatment of Bajoran women and children. Heard about it but not shown. I think in this case it needed to be shown just how far Sarats willing to go. As the audience, it took away all doubt that he is an evil character. That last shot, with the only remaining child, looking him in the eye as he fires his phaser was a pretty powerful moment.

Also, the homage helped the audience "feel", for the lack of a better term, T'Noshi's pain and her guilt when she returns to Potemkin. In a way that would have been lessened had we not gone through the experience with her. You go from not knowing her in the beginning of the film to knowing a great deal about her, making her request both logical and emotional at the same time. You know if it wasn't for her pain and guilt and the knowledge he killed children with Starfleet weapons, Gregory may not have done what he did.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

I don't see the point if it, if Sarat's not really dead. I carefully considered the alternatives and rejected them.

  1. There's no way that Grigory can involve anyone else on the ship without risking his career for violating the Prime Directive, if not his freedom, especially given that he asked for permission to do something and was denied.
  2. Girgory can't stay on the surface for an extended period for the same reason, certainly not longer than to retrieve the IDIC (which evidently isn't so easy to beam up as the equipment, e.g. since it doesn't have transtators, and which I assume will be the reason he logged for going back down one last time). So, putting Sarat on trial in a hypothetical sequel would be totally unbelievable.
  3. If it's just to stun Sarat, then all Sarat learns is that he is right that the Federation won't interfere. That would actually accomplish less than nothing, because Girgory would have to stick his neck out for a null result.
Now, don't get me wrong. Dennis Proulx did a terrific job. I suspected that Sarat would not follow Surak's teachings just by his infuriating smirk. However, as long as the Federation keeps the planet off limits, he can't make a recurring villain. And, if it's all just to backpedal, why go there in the first place?

Anyway, those are my thoughts. And, thanks for giving us something to discuss!
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

CorporalCaptain said:
I don't see the point if it, if Sarat's not really dead. I carefully considered the alternatives and rejected them.

  1. There's no way that Grigory can involve anyone else on the ship without risking his career for violating the Prime Directive, if not his freedom, especially given that he asked for permission to do something and was denied.
  2. Girgory can't stay on the surface for an extended period for the same reason, certainly not longer than to retrieve the IDIC (which evidently isn't so easy to beam up as the equipment, e.g. since it doesn't have transtators, and which I assume will be the reason he logged for going back down one last time). So, putting Sarat on trial in a hypothetical sequel would be totally unbelievable.
  3. If it's just to stun Sarat, then all Sarat learns is that he is right that the Federation won't interfere. That would actually accomplish less than nothing, because Girgory would have to stick his neck out for a null result.
Now, don't get me wrong. Dennis Proulx did a terrific job. I suspected that Sarat would not follow Surak's teachings just by his infuriating smirk. However, as long as the Federation keeps the planet off limits, he can't make a recurring villain. And, if it's all just to backpedal, why go there in the first place?

Anyway, those are my thoughts. And, thanks for giving us something to discuss!
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In science fiction there is always an "out" to death. Anyone care to guess how Sarat can live even after he's technically dead? I'll give you one clue..

Remember.

Edit to add: Also, just because Starfleet declares the planet off limits, doesn't mean there's no way for other races not to beam down. I've already mapped out in my head just how to make a sequel work. And if I can do it and do it in an original way, then the Potemkin producers can too.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Halliwell said:
Potemkin_Prod said:
Did you think the Odessa Steps homage was too much?
Click to expand...

Definitely not. It was intense and needed to be shown. I'm reminded of the tales we've heard over the years about the Cardassian's treatment of Bajoran women and children. Heard about it but not shown. I think in this case it needed to be shown just how far Sarats willing to go. As the audience, it took away all doubt that he is an evil character. That last shot, with the only remaining child, looking him in the eye as he fires his phaser was a pretty powerful moment.
Click to expand...

The kids in the scene all enjoyed their moment. Hope, the little girl, played it to the max, and after the scene finished shooting (I think it took several takes), Dennis had to take a time out. She had affected him that much. Hope to this day is tickled by that.

Halliwell said:
Also, the homage helped the audience "feel", for the lack of a better term, T'Noshi's pain and her guilt when she returns to Potemkin. In a way that would have been lessened had we not gone through the experience with her. You go from not knowing her in the beginning of the film to knowing a great deal about her, making her request both logical and emotional at the same time. You know if it wasn't for her pain and guilt and the knowledge he killed children with Starfleet weapons, Gregory may not have done what he did.
Click to expand...

That is definitely my thought as well. It was T'Noshi who put him over the edge.

Halliwell said:
In science fiction there is always an "out" to death. Anyone care to guess how Sarat can live even after he's technically dead? I'll give you one clue..

Remember.

Edit to add: Also, just because Starfleet declares the planet off limits, doesn't mean there's no way for other races not to beam down. I've already mapped out in my head just how to make a sequel work. And if I can do it and do it in an original way, then the Potemkin producers can too.
Click to expand...

There are always possibilities. The question to me as the producer is not "can we bring him back?" but rather whether or not we want to bring the character back.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Halliwell said:
In science fiction there is always an "out" to death.
Click to expand...

Just not for the children Sarat murdered, eh?

I mean, seriously, you'd recommend bending the rules of drama for one character, but not others?

Sarat gets to kill the children because he's evil, and they'll stay dead just to prove how evil he is, but he gets to come back, just to milk the character? Why not let it stand that he got what he deserved? Is there that much of a shortage of villains that we're going to love to hate?

I'd like to see more of Dennis Proulx, if that's possible, but I'd prefer to see him as a new character, non-villain included.

All that said, however Project: Potemkin decides to use their characters, it's their decision and their stories to tell. For all I know, they could bring back Sarat in a way that completely dispels all the concerns I'd have about it. That wouldn't be the first time that's happened! I look forward to all their future endeavors.

My feedback is just my two cents.
Thanks again, and I really appreciate your willingness to entertain our feedback. :techman:
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

I'm a big Eisenstein fan, but I didn't think "Odessa steps" at all, probably because I associate that sequence with montage cutting.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

We felt "homage" was an appropriate thing to call it (steps, woman and children being killed without remorse); we certainly didn't do (or desire to do) a recreation of the sequences, although we actually brought a baby dino and a buggy in case we wanted to pursue that route (Hope hated the dino and buggy and pretty much refused to have them in the shot, although you can glimpse the dino at 42:57 in her lap.) That particular shot sequence took around 4 hours to complete, and even then we were having issues with continuity, the lighting, the heat. The children were wonderful, but were after all, children, so getting them to do the same movements over and over again was too tedious for them. We were short a Vulcan, so I was pressed into service, and again another continuity problem arose: I had my glasses on! This wasn't discovered until much later. Also, we had run out of prosthetic ears -- one of the principals' had torn, and I had to forego having one on each side. Still, considering what we went through, I think the scene came out fine.
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

I have published a brief article on this episode here.

While I feel this episode represents the best work to date from Potemkin, I really wonder if the dialogue between Grigory and the "ghosts" of the Preservers was really necessary. It certainly helped make concrete Grigory's contempt for the bumbling of the Preservers. In this case the road to Hell was paved with the best of intentions and the dialogue brought that out, but I'm not really sure it was necessary.

In regards to the slaughter on the steps wasn't the lovely Vulcan woman killed twice?

This episode is a new high water mark for Potemkin and holds great promise for more improvement in the future. Keep going!
 
Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Thanks Mike, as always, for your candid remarks. I have come to appreciate them over the past couple years. To see my feelings about the scene you reference, look upthread (#27). At this late date, I agree with you.

Sir Rhosis
 
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Re: Star Trek -- Project: Potemkin "The Night the Stars Fell from the

Actually, Mike, in regards to your question, no...

she wasn't killed twice. T'Hima is approached by the T'Rike villain (Sarat), his adjutant (Kalv) and a henchman (uh, me). Sarat tells me to take her, and I descent the steps rather clumsily. She nervepinched me, and I collapsed (getting a major bump on my head in real-life in the process). Sarat then stuns T'Hima, and she partially collapses. Sarat sets the weapon to disrupt, and fires it at me killing me in the process. Kalv looks questioningly at Sarat, who explains I was "useless." Then he aims the weapon at the Lady T'Hima who is recovering and kills her. The children are shocked, and then one by one by one, they are also killed. The last one to die, Hope, is seen just as T'Noshi arrives on the scene.

Interestingly enough, you're the second person to raise that issue with us. But thanks for asking!!!

Addendum: and thank you for the nice article!!!
 
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