Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x09 - "Võx"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Commander Richard, Apr 12, 2023.

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Engage!

  1. 10 - Excellent!

    52.1%
  2. 9

    21.5%
  3. 8

    7.4%
  4. 7

    5.9%
  5. 6

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  6. 5

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  7. 4

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  8. 3

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  9. 2

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  10. 1 - Terrible!

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  1. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    They can if Geordi is one of them!
     
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  2. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Well, Voyager was lost for 7 years, so probably. Has he made Lieutenant yet?
     
  3. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Okay, I just watched Vox for the first time. I gave it a 5. Sorry, but TNG was not "my" Star Trek. I grew up watching TOS reruns after school... by the time TNG was on, most of the time I was too busy with school and work to watch. I caught a few episodes here and there but never done a full rewatch. DS9 is my favorite now too. SNW is interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing more. I certainly don't mind them having TNG fan service as part of the episode, but that's the frosting. There needs to be some cake too.

    I deliberately avoided spoilers of Picard, and "Oh, for fuck's sake!" was definitely my reaction seeing the cube. I dunno about the Borg infiltrating Starfleet, but they seem to have infiltrated every Star Trek writer's room. The Borg were a good idea... which was past its use-by date at the end of TNG. I don't buy them having a queen, the whole point of the Borg was that they did NOT have a centralized command that could be targeted. There are so many possible science fiction stories, I would have thought they could come up with something that hasn't been done to death already.

    Also, WTF is up with Starfleet Command, making every ship in the fleet vulnerable to a single attack? (See the Borg Queen, above.)
     
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  4. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    I expected the Dominion to come back for more. In the Dominion War the Alpha Quadrant didn't really defeat them, just a small outpost of the Dominion that was caught in the Alpha Quadrant when the wormhole was closed. Smart money would be on the Dominion for the rematch.

    However, the Dominion's first priority would be wiping out the Cardasians and Romulans. They would have destroyed the Great Link, if it hadn't been for good work by a few Changelings and a lot of luck.
     
  5. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    the computer pretty much runs everything if needed, a single person can handle the ship.
     
  6. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Vice Admiral Admiral

    As always, there are a lot of sweet dialogue snippets along with one or two clunkers, or the handful that don't feel quite perfect but are good enough to roll with.

    Especially as this often felt like filler, holding off the good stuff until next episode.

    We finally get the reason for Jack's abilities, with self-realization growing - nicely done. If anything, the crippled Borg alliance with this "evolved" faction of Changelings is hard to swallow, and it's a fair bit obvious that Vadic would betray the Borg at some point. Both factions have a genetic theme tie-in, but something big about the alliance doesn't fully match up.

    Shelby is back! Not for long, sadly.

    The transporter trope is cleverly used, and the real-life science about human biological development certainly ups the ante for sure.

    Okay, a lot of this hinges on how Borqueenie there just waited decades in hopes that Picard would reproduce, what luck! Since what was transmitted is biological, how come Beverly wasn't affected? Or the Borg sequences having a timer to wait until after Jack was born?

    I wish the Borg takeover looked a little more Borg-like and not just facial lines.

    7's joke about why they weren't affected to Shaw was amusing but I'm amazed Shaw didn't ask for some clarification.

    After last episode, it'd take a lot to top it. The episode is a smooth flowing fun ride.

    I guessed there were 240 ships in the fleet? I didn't pause and freeze-frame, but I did a quick dirty count of one column formation (nice appearance) and then multiplied by the number of columns. Give or take a dozen, it's all good.

    Gotta love the spacedock design. Didn't they want to do something like that for "11001001" but were unable to? (Or did they just want to have the 1701-D dock with the tube on the outside but still didn't have enough budget to do it?)

    All ships in sync has advantages. Plus an obvious disadvantage, but there's always something.

    Then they reintroduce the Big-D. The music never fails to excel, to say the least. The lighting is so nice and bright, though I still wish they could have used 6000k bulbs instead of 2000k since the blue contrasting the orange would shake up the monotonous look perfectly. But that's enough nitpicking; the recreation of the set truly holds up as masterclass.

    I still wish Picard would have said "the Enterprise, but how?" and not "the Enterprise-D, but how?", but he's commanded two so it works. Plus, Geordi's explanation for it all really hits the spot. Which reminds, Data better get another cat at the end of the next episode.

    Plus, seeing the ship grace out of the dock and get to the angle shown in the painting from part one -- nice finesse. I hope they don't have it zippiewarp like how they've done it for all the other ships as it still remains jarring and is a more iconic look to Star Wars, but whine whine whine aside it's still a solid episode.


    Plot: 8.5/10
    Style/presentation/direction: 9.5/10
    Acting: 10/10
    Dialogue: 8/10
    Music: 10/10

    Screw it, it's 10/10, I'm having a good hair day.
     
  7. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1654542725058789381
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Vice Admiral Admiral


    :luvlove::luvlove::luvlove::luvlove::luvlove: Thanks!

    The layout is almost reminiscent of a lapel pin, if not insignia from the TOS mirror episode counterparts. Yup, I didn't have too much coffee enough yet, unless I had...

    That also reminds me to not count that jar of jellybeans that toddler Timmy tinkled in last week...

    And it took a few hours but it did dawn on me why Crusher would not be affected by the Borg biological thingy that was passed from Picard to Jack (related to the same reason that the ~under-25s would be turned into drones and not the olders. The next time I watch this season I'll probably rethink it, hehe.)
     
  9. ngc7293

    ngc7293 Commander Red Shirt

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    Something that bugs me near the beginning of the episode. Beverly says "No one has see or heard from the Borg in over a decade...." Is the Agnes Borg from an alternate universe and not a the Borg everyone is familiar with even though Seven said in Season 2 said it was the Borg? Is everything that happened in season 2 a secret and thus can't be passed on to some people so Beverly can't be told? Or the last one is that Season 2 happened over a decade ago so what Beverly said was true. I don't think they say how much time passes between seasons but it can't be THAT much time.
     
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  10. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    I think they're just simplifying it. The Borg from last season would be a hard secret to keep, seeing as there were quite a few ships involved. I assume she just meant that no one had heard from THE BORG in over a decade. ;)
     
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  11. HotRod

    HotRod Commodore Commodore

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    Wasn't there something about how the 3rd season was originally meant to take place like a decade after season 2? Then someone changed their minds and put it in 2401?

    It would have certainly helped a few plot points make more sense. Things such as that mention of the Borg not being seen in a decade, the age of Jack Crusher, and especially the whole Frontier Day thing. A celebration of the launch of the NX-01..... but they kept the actual ship at the museum, lightyears from the celebration? Could they not have taken the NX-01 to Earth and have it launch from Spacedock in a grand fashion, celebrating 250 years since her launch? Would've made more sense than the Enterprise-F.

    Wouldn't the 250th anniversary of the Federation make far more sense for what we saw? Wouldn't 2411 have made more sense as to when the season took place? Why make it 2401?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2024
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  12. evilchumlee

    evilchumlee Captain Captain

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    That doesn't make sense at all. Picard... the namesake of the show... would be over 100. It's not THAT big of a deal in Star Trek, but still. Starts to really stretch the believability.

    Point by point here.

    Borg haven't been seen in a decade... that tracks with the rest of the Picard. They were mentioned to have mostly defeated about a decade prior to S1. "The Borg" being the Collective, not XB's or a derelict cube. Jurati Borg had just become known very recently, and kinda sorta don't count anyway. They're Borg, but not.

    Jack Crusher's age is fine... the actor is 35, but characters don't need to match their actors age. Jack Crusher should be 21-22 at the time of S3, which is exactly the amount of time stated in the dialogue. He was born shortly after Nemesis. I think Ed Speelers is fine as a 21 year old, I had to look up his age. I had no idea, to my eye he could have been anywhere from mid-20's to 30ish. Factor in the character has lived kind of a hard life, it makes sense.

    Frontier Day... literally has to take place in 2401 to make sense with the lore. NX-01 launched in 2151. Frontier Day was the 250th anniversary of that... which is... 2401.

    I still have my doubts as to if that ship is actually NX-01.

    But even if it is, it might be too fragile/risky to move it around. It's 250 years old. Moving it around through warp and everything might be too much of a strain on it.

    "Federation Day" is already thing, as is "First Contact Day".

    "Frontier Day" uses the NX-01 launch date as its day, but it really seems to be less a celebration of specifically the NX-01, and more of a "Starfleet Day". I think it's one of those things where they COULD use the day Starfleet was chartered, but there are a bunch of factors that could go into that. I do think that the NX-01 launch was such a significant event for Starfleet that it was basically the REAL beginning of Starfleet, even if the organization had existed prior. "Frontier Day" isn't "NX-01 Day", it's about ALL of Starfleet.

    The Federation likes its holidays. Even if they're mostly super Earth-centric.
     
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  13. HotRod

    HotRod Commodore Commodore

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    Which is kinda splitting hairs. They were still Borg. But whatever.

    And he looks every bit his age. I'm not usually one to complain about actors being older than their characters. Usually it's not an issue. But Jack Crusher looks my age and I'm almost 40. His casting would have made more sense had the season taken place in 2411.

    Yes, yes.i'm aware of all this. But I'm just speculation that the idea behind the season was originally 10 years after season 2, but they changed their minds, and that the scripted was revised. The Federation Day celebration became Frontier Day to line up with the revised dates, etc, etc.

    Why wouldn't it be? We know it's at the Fleet Museum.

    I refuse to believe an organization as powerful as Starfleet is incapable of moving fragile cargo. Put it in a box with some packing peanuts or something.

    Which makes no sense as Starfleet wasn't founded in 2151.
     
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  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, hair splitting is Trek fans raison d'etre at times. The Borg in Season 3 are different from the past two seasons use of the Borg because they have a personal connection to Picard, and never mind the similarities. That's not important.
     
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  15. evilchumlee

    evilchumlee Captain Captain

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    It's clearly in reference to the Borg as a hostile force. There ARE Borg still around... kind of a major plot point of Season 1... it's The Borg that haven't been encountered in quite some time.

    "Some Borg" have been seen. Not... The Borg.

    Anything visual is going to be somewhat subjective. Before I looked up the actors age, I had figured he was somewhere in his mid-late 20's. I mentioned though, take into account Jack has lived a fairly rough life. That has a habit of putting some years on a person.

    Maybe Jack looks better if it's 2411, but I feel like the rest of it all doesn't work as well. Way too much of a time jump, and for what? What does that accomplish?

    Picard was always intended to be in somewhat "real-time" from TNG to our world.

    It's such a minor detail though, to rewrite the entire show over. Why? Why would they?

    It's that the ship doesn't make any sense. NX-01 had to be retired by 2161, a year we saw it in, without the refit it has in the Fleet Museum. So... for some reason... NX-01 got a refit after it left service? It's whatever, it can be explained, it's just an oddity. Not the end of the world there.

    Did you just disregard all of that? I specifically acknowledged that. Yeah, Starfleet existed prior to 2151. It also... fairly insignificant up until that point. 2151 may not be when Starfleet was founded, but it's absolutely when Starfleet found relevance. When it went to... the frontier.

    That's all kind of the point though. It's not worth the headache of pulling the old corpse of the NX-01 out just for it to sit at Earth when the celebration isn't really about it. It's using it symbolically. It's not "NX-01 Day", it's not even "Starfleet Day".

    "Star Trek: Picard executive producer Terry Matalas elaborated upon his team's thinking that the initiation of Archer's mission would be considered a milestone by future generations for including multiple non-humans for the first time as senior crewmembers in cooperation with humans."

    That makes sense to me. 2151 was a huge turning point for Earth and the would-be Federation. Up until that point, humans fiddled around their little local area, the furtherst they had EVER made it being about 100 LY's, and with exclusively all human crews. The launch of NX-01 ushered in a new era...

    Hell, Americans celebrate independence day on July 4th... even though the Declaration wasn't actually completely signed until sometime in August. It's just the date they wrote on the paper.

    In the end, it seems like making the Season take places 2411 only makes Jack Crusher's apparent age closer to the actors and it makes Frontier Day line up with the formation of the Federation. It does absolutely nothing for the plot. If anything, it creates potential issues. The effective age for the Borg virus thing has to also be moved 10 years, which probably isn't the biggest deal ever but it would make the effects much less severe. Picard is now over 100 years old*(or at least, his golum body thinks so).

    Seems like a lot of work to make two fairly insignificant things work "better".

    It's even really that.

    The Borg is S1 and S2 are just... some Borg. I don't know how else to communicate that.

    I'm American. If I were to fly a plane over Russia and drop a bomb on them, The United States of America didn't attack Russia. An American attacked Russia.

    That's the distinction. S1 is just, a derelict Borg Cube and a bunch of disconnected former Drones. There is no, uh, "Borg Empire". Just... scattered remnant Borg.

    In S2, the Borg that show us are... Borg-Adjacent. They aren't "The Borg". They're something similar to the Borg but not The Borg. They're breakway Borg. The USA started as a part of England, but broke away to become something else. If the USA shows up and somewhere, saying "OMG IT'S THE BRITISH!" would be... incorrect.
     
  16. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg in Season 1 were Ex Borg, disconnected from the collective, so they weren't Borg anymore, the Borg in Season 2 were from a different timeline, and Season 3 was just the Voyager Borg Queen and what few drones she had left on her super cube.

    Not really splitting hairs when there's clear narrative differences between them all that is made clear in the show.
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe if there was another term other than "Borg."
     
  18. evilchumlee

    evilchumlee Captain Captain

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    Is it really necessary?

    "The Borg have been defeated/not a threat in a decade."

    That in absolutely no way precludes some Borg still being around, doing things.

    Maybe let's take another look, in the same universe, in the same show.

    The Romulan Empire is no longer a threat.

    Romulans, however, could still be.

    Or, the same show, same season.

    The Dominion is no longer an enemy.

    Some changelings are an enemy.
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, in my view.

    The terms are the same, vs. your examples which have another term associated with the larger group vs. individuals.
     
  20. evilchumlee

    evilchumlee Captain Captain

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    But... it's their name.

    Although even still, i'll amend by examples.

    Rather than "Romulan Empire", the Romulans... as an organized entity, are no longer a threat. Romulans, as individuals or small groups, can be.

    Borg, as an organized entity, are no longer a threat. Borg, as individuals or small groups, can be.

    The Borg Collective is no longer a threat. Borg can be.

    It's a really weird semantic game we're playing here...