Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x01 - "The Next Generation"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Commander Richard, Feb 15, 2023.

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Engage!

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  10. 1 - Terrible!

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  1. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, not exactly.

    The United States Army today certainly likes to think of itself as being the same institution as the Continental Army of the United Colonies, and certainly it's descended from it in terms of inherited cultural ethos and history. But by law, the Continental Army disbanded after the Treaty of Paris ended the war. Under the Articles of Confederation, a very small Regular Army was created (due to the then-common distrust of standing armies). It was reorganized into the Legion of the United States in 1791, which was then renamed as the U.S. Army in 1792.

    This does at least suggest the possibility that trying to nail down one particular "birthday" for Starfleet might be more complicated than you would think, though.

    I dunno man. Real life is full of heroic people who subsequently went batshit crazy. Like, yeah, MacArthur probably saved the free world during World War II, but does that mean President Truman was wrong to fire him when he started defying presidential authority and wanted to nuke China during the Korean War? Everyone loved Rudy Giuliani for his leadership in the aftermath of 9/11, but he turned into a fascist lunatic now.

    We know that Riker and Picard aren't that, because we're the audience members watching a show and we know how the narrative works. Characters within the narrative do not know they are in a story or who the main characters are.

    I mean, yeah, the bit where Tilly is first office of the Discovery was a dumb decision and thank goodness got walked back quickly, but I don't really see the comparison. Seven of Nine clearly has the equivalent knowledge of multiple doctorate-level educations, she served honorably as a civilian senior department head and key part of the command crew aboard the USS Voyager, and then she spent something in the area of at least ten to fifteen years rendering extraordinary service in an anarchic part of space with the Fenris Rangers. She clearly has the command experience of at least a commander, and it makes perfect sense to commission her as such.

    How would you know? You don't pay enough attention to what's happening onscreen to really know what they should have done.

    I assume that he knew La Sirena and Raffi were unavailable, even if he didn't know the details.

    Works for me.

    As others have noted, that was the CSS La Sirena from the Confederation of Earth timeline. The S.S. La Sirena of the Prime Timeline was transported to the Federation fleet that joined with the Borg Commonwealth ship to save the quadrant from the space anomaly at the end of Picard S2.

    I believe the implication is that it's all M'Talas Prime, and the attack took place against a Starfleet facility located on that planet. I don't think the entire building was just one giant Starfleet recruitment center, though. My hypothesis is that it was a planetary base and that the smaller building attached to the complex was the Federation Embassy to M'Talas.

    That would explain how they can assimilate ground-based facilities and populations so quickly.

    Given that we know from Picard S1 that the other Soong-type androids ended up at the Daystrom Institute, I would theorize that the bad guys not only stole the portal weapon

    but also stole and reactivated Lore and stole Moriarty from Daystrom's Self-Aware Megalomaniacal Computer Storage facility.

    I would love to watch Star Trek: Seven of Nine starring Jeri Ryan and Michelle Hurd. :bolian:

    I don't think the Dominion War or the Mars Attack took a terrible material toll on the foundations of Federation society. A large segment of Federation worlds to the "west" were hit, but the core worlds of the Federation and the worlds closer to Klingon and Romulan space were untouched. The Mars Attack was a huge psychological blow, but it killed less than 100,000 people in a Federation with a population that probably reaches into the trillions. These are major setbacks, but I don't think they're decline-of-the-British-Empire level setbacks.

    Also -- something else to think about is that the Federation no longer has any major rivals capable of projecting power on the same level it can. The Cardassian Union was in complete shambles after the Dominion War, essentially reduced to its home planet even before the Jem'Hadar tried to genocide their population. The Dominion have withdrawn to the Gamma Quadrant. The Breen Confederacy was clearly able to fend off potential invaders but was never able to project power on the scale of the other major powers until its energy-dampening weapon was a thing in 2375, but the Federation overcame that in about three weeks. The Romulan Star Empire has collapsed, and the Romulan Free State is both seemingly less hostile but also clearly less powerful than the Star Empire had been -- and it appears to be in competition with multiple Romulan would-be successor states. DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" established that the Klingon Empire had been so depleted by the Dominion War that it was going to spend the next several decades in recovery mode, and that was before the Klingon Defense Force had to single-handedly protect the Alpha Quadrant from the Breen during those three weeks. And Picard S2 established that Janeway's neurolytic pathogen thing had indeed reduced the Borg Collective to a shell of its former self.

    So the Federation doesn't really have great-power competition, at least not in local space.

    The spines are a bit reminiscent of Vorlon ships, yeah. It's also reminiscent of both the Scimitar and the Narada from Nemesis and ST09.

    Yeah, it could go either way. But Seven and Raffi were in a really good place when S2 ended, so I'm more inclined to assume they're still together.

    We have no idea if Vulcan/Romulan children age at a slower rate or faster rate than Human children. Also, it's possible Gabe and Pel had an older daughter that we just didn't hear about in "Stardust City Rag."

    Yeah. And they did the same thing with the Stargazer last season. It's weird.

    I would have much preferred this.

    Yeah, I don't really like the idea that Will Riker would have done something to drive a wedge in his marriage. That seems... not like him. Will always struck me as the kind of guy who, once he was ready to marry, was ready to marry, 100% committed. But we'll see where this goes -- it might be done well yet.

    Oh, I'm sure it has nothing to do with not wanting to pay Lulu Wilson. She gave a wonderful performance in S1 and she has a really bright career going. It's probably more just that the Kestra character doesn't really lend herself to the narrative they're putting together.

    And there is nothing wrong with that dialogue.

    Well, we explicitly saw Seven and Jean-Luc and Will talk and resolve their conflict. We saw Jean-Luc and Laris talk and resolve the tension between their desire to stay together and Jean-Luc's desire to save his friend. We saw Raffi talk with her handler and resolve the tension between them. We saw Jean-Luc and Will talk with Jack and realize they're all on the same side. I agree that the bit where Will punches him was overkill though. And there's a plot reason Jean-Luc and Will don't do more to resolve their conflict with Shaw -- they have been advised that there is a potential conspiracy or leak within Starfleet linked to the people attacking Beverly. So, I can't say that I think "The Next Generation" lacked for scenes of adults resolving their conflicts by talking to one-another, although I do agree the bit where Will punched Jack went a bit too far and didn't serve a necessary plot function.

    Okay, that makes a bit more sense. Given the example of how there are like four different dates in real-life you could cite as the "birthday" of the U.S. Army, and given the historic importance of the NX-01 in bringing Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar together, I can imagine the launch of the NX-01 being considered the unofficially "birthday" of Starfleet.

    I mean, it's not what I wanted from the start. I wanted what was originally promised -- a show focusing on Jean-Luc Picard that wasn't just a TNG reunion. I still contend that "Remembrance" is one of the greatest episodes of Star Trek ever produced. But I do concede that even though I fundamentally disagree with the premise behind S3, so far it is a well-executed version of that premise.

    Not the same thing at all. A comparable situation would be if someone grew up in Germany, was brought to the U.S., and then was told they weren't allowed to use the name they grew up with anymore because it was German. Like, yeah, it's fine to say that nobody should be calling themselves "Adolf Hitler," but are you gonna tell Christoph Waltz he's not allowed to use his name?

    No reason to think there aren't plenty of other states commemorating Captain Garrett on other planets. This statue was apparently new to M'Talas Prime, is all.

    For whatever it's worth, you're not. In fact, when we got married last October, I was able to work with the organist at our church to adapt the sheet music so that my wife could walk down the aisle to the theme from Star Trek: First Contact. :adore:

    In Star Trek: The Next Generation, we found out or saw that the characters all suffered the following forms of trauma:
    • Jean-Luc was the victim of emotional abuse from his father and brother
    • Jean-Luc was abducted and assimilated by the Borg into Locutus
    • Jean-Luc was forced to experience the last twenty-some-odd years and subsequent death and extinction of Kamin and the people of Kataan
    • Jean-Luc was captured and tortured by the Cardassian Guard
    • Will's mother died when he was young and he was estranged from his father
    • Deanna's father died at a young age
    • Geordi lost his mother
    • Beverly's parents died when she was very young
    • Beverly lost her husband Jack aboard the Stargazer under Jean-Luc's command
    • Beverly's son Wesley left the mortal realm when he was still in his early 20s
    • Worf lost his parents, his family, and his entire world during the Khitomer Massacre
    • Worf lost the woman he loved and the mother of his child, K'Ehleyr
    • Worf suddenly had to raise a child alone whom he hadn't known existed about five minutes after meeting him
    • Tasha was the survivor of a planet full of rape gangs
    .... Like, the Next Generation characters were full of trauma!

    Jurati's Borg didn't re-write the history that had previously occurred between 2365 and 2401. Her Borg Commonwealth was off in another region of space, waiting for 2401 to roll around so they could arrive, trigger the line of time-travel dominoes that constituted Picard S2's journey to 2024, and then re-introduce herself to Jean-Luc, protect the Federation, and apply for Membership (since they knew what was going to happen). The events of Star Trek: First Contact, "Regeneration" (ENT), Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Voyager, "Let Sleeping Borg Lie" (PROD), and Star Trek: Picard all unfolded as we had previously seen them, no re-writing of time.

    I think it's very clear that Picard accepts the idea that Starfleet and the Federation are flawed institutions, but that those flaws are not intrinsic to them. I have no doubt that by the end of the season, we'll be hearing the Titan crew address her as Commander Nine.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2023
  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So why enlist in Starfleet?
     
  3. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    To explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where no one (from the Federation) has gone before. :bolian:
     
  4. ED-209

    ED-209 Commodore Commodore

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    I turned it off when Crusher vaporised an injured man in the floor with her pump action phaser rifle.
     
  5. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It looked like Earth because the production team used footage of a real world location as the basis for the FX shot
     
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  6. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, he hates Picard for a very specific reason which is hinted at via the constellation class USS Constance in the end credits. Shaw dislikes Riker most likely because of his association with Picard.

    As for Seven, Matalas hinted in an interview that Shaw actually chose Seven to be his first officer for a specific reason. So clearly he saw something within Seven that would make him trust her enough to be his second in Command.

    For me it was clear that Shaw was acting from a place of trauma when he met with Picard. It was very much like when Sisko met Picard for the first time after Wolf 359
     
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  7. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    neither was anyone ever on screen going to pee (except cochrane I guess), and yet we can safely assume that's what everyone did every day. imagine bobw2 with an additional 2 h of just repairs at the beginning... sure, some of us would still watch it :D
     
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  8. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You mean the armed man who still had a weapon and still posed a threat to her life and the life of her son?
     
  9. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If it’s not on screen it’s not canon that they pee’d.
     
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  10. SJGardner

    SJGardner Commodore Commodore

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    I'd just wish we dropped this damn "XBs using Borg designations is a trauma trigger for survivors" thing. Because it is eerily similar to the exact argument used by trans-exclusionary radical feminists to attempt to justify the exclusion of trans women from women's spaces. We constantly have to listen to how our "male bodies" are trauma triggers for survivors of sexual assault, how recognizing "male-bodied" people as women would be a slap in the face of "actual" women who all have to live under a constant threat of being harmed by male-bodied predators, and that the "selfish desires" of "male-bodied" and "male-socialized" people who "possess male privilege" should never be made more important than the safety of women. We have to listen to arguments all the time about how deadnaming us and referring to us with masculine pronouns is a moral imperative for all women so that they could warn each other that a potential predator is walking in their midst. As if we aren't under a constant threat of harm ourselves. As if we chose to be assigned male at birth.
     
  11. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe... But then why would you make a gun that screams "OUT OF AMMO, PLEASE COME SHOOT ME"? lol


    Ultimately, I've seen two scenes with him and the reading of someone else's writing is always going to be subjective. I think anything other than "nap time" would have worked better for me as an excuse for why he wasn't around.

    As a point of characterization, the only way it makes sense to me is that he abused and degraded Seven so much that he thinks he has absolute power over her as his victim. He doesn't respect her enough to believe that she would do anything on her own or of her own initiative, which is why he insists on dead naming her. This is supported by Seven's visceral reaction to explaining her situation to Picard when she thinks she made a mistake joining Starfleet.

    But I dunno, this is all the information I have and how I read the character... I could be totally wrong, but at least that would make sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2023
  12. Search4

    Search4 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not until the next episode airs.
     
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  13. Pubert

    Pubert Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Even Riker was shocked and said it wasn't the Beverly he knew when he saw the ashes. She didn't shoot him because he was just armed. There's some other danger the aliens pose beyond being just armed. The alien was already down and hadn't raised his weapon. I suspect there is more to the story than that he was just armed.
     
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  14. Pubert

    Pubert Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Matalas has said that Shaw has a reason to why he treated picard and Riker the way he did. Part is that he is a by the book officer. That could be part of the reason why he wants birth names on duty used instead of what he might consider a nickname. Also from the end credits and the previous discussion at dinner he has a has a psst with the borg and may have been on the constance during the borgs destruction at wolf 359. You're right he did most likely have a say in Sevens posting to the titan. He could easily had asked for a transfer or even resigned his commission. The way some are carrying on here its like they feel this guy deserves a court-martial for the name thing. So ridiculous. It Ms not a big deal in my opinion.
     
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  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    I don’t believe you.
     
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  16. ED-209

    ED-209 Commodore Commodore

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    The man that could be stunned and disarmed since he was injured on the floor, yes. TNG Crusher wouldn’t do that.
     
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  17. Mike Doyle

    Mike Doyle Commander Red Shirt

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    I didn’t take Riker’s comments as he was shocked she had killed someone while defending herself. I don’t think this is the first time, she’s on screen killed Borg at least and was selected as part of a Spec Ops deployment in Chain of Command so was likely prepared to.

    I took Riker’s surprise to be more about how professional it had been, more like a soldier than someone who just found themselves in that situation.
     
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  18. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Now I kind of want this to be a commentary on how people aren't allowed to change their birth certificates to reflect their gender in certain parts of the world.
     
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  19. Pubert

    Pubert Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She obviously hasn't changed her legal name. He's a by the book captain. Matalas has already stated that. Her legal name is Hansen so he's using it when she's on duty. What if everyone wanted to be called by a nickname instead of their legal name and rank in starfleet? If you want to make it about gender issues that's your business. As far as I can see sevens pronoun is female.
     
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  20. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Under what name did Seven join Starfleet? Her Borg designation or Annika Hansen? I do understand why Seven had insisted upon using her Borg designation when the Voyager crew first disconnected her from the Collective. It was a name more familiar to her. But it was also a name that had been forced upon her by the Borg, following her assimilation. Why would she still want to keep it or even use it as her official name after all these years?
     
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