Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

[beamMe]

In STID, her abilities get overshadowed by the men in the film. She speaks Klingon, but nothing comes of it, and then there's a fight where she and her cohorts are saved by the "bad guy." That quickly moves on to a whole thing with him and Kirk, and to me, her "contribution" is easily forgotten.

You completely ignore that all our Starfleet heroes needed to be "saved" by Khan.

Then, when she beams down to "help" Spock, who's fighting Khan, again, her contribution falls flat to me. She has to rely on her boyfriend to take the bad guy out because he's more than her phaser can handle.

No. She put him in a position from where it was possible for him to overcome Khan.

You also ignore the fact that Dr. Marcus saved Dr. McCoy's life.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Also the fact that Uhura saved Kirk's life by beaming down and convincing Spock not to kill Khan, a fact which McCoy made sure to note when Kirk awoke.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

In STID, her abilities get overshadowed by the men in the film. She speaks Klingon, but nothing comes of it, and then there's a fight where she and her cohorts are saved by the "bad guy." That quickly moves on to a whole thing with him and Kirk, and to me, her "contribution" is easily forgotten.

You completely ignore that all our Starfleet heroes needed to be "saved" by Khan.

No, that's what "cohorts" means. I think you're ignoring my point, but that's okay.

Then, when she beams down to "help" Spock, who's fighting Khan, again, her contribution falls flat to me. She has to rely on her boyfriend to take the bad guy out because he's more than her phaser can handle.

No. She put him in a position from where it was possible for him to overcome Khan.

You also ignore the fact that Dr. Marcus saved Dr. McCoy's life.

I said she "helped." I also said it fell flat and stand by that.

And Dr. Marcus. She put him in that position in the first place and her "saving" him came off more as dumb luck than the skill of an intelligent scientist. I suspect that's because they played it for laughs, imo.

It was interesting to find from another thread that Nichele Nichols not knowing Klingon (in TUC?) was also an incompetence written and displayed for laughs, even though, from what I read, she and Leonard Nimoy objected because it didn't make sense for the Communications Officer at the time not to be fully in control of the Klingon language. It is what it is...

 

[beamMe]

In STID, her abilities get overshadowed by the men in the film. She speaks Klingon, but nothing comes of it, and then there's a fight where she and her cohorts are saved by the "bad guy." That quickly moves on to a whole thing with him and Kirk, and to me, her "contribution" is easily forgotten.

You completely ignore that all our Starfleet heroes needed to be "saved" by Khan.

No, that's what "cohorts" means. I think you're ignoring my point, but that's okay.

Her language skills didn't help them.
Kirk's skills at the helm of the shuttle didn't help them.

Then, when she beams down to "help" Spock, who's fighting Khan, again, her contribution falls flat to me. She has to rely on her boyfriend to take the bad guy out because he's more than her phaser can handle.

No. She put him in a position from where it was possible for him to overcome Khan.

You also ignore the fact that Dr. Marcus saved Dr. McCoy's life.

I said she "helped." I also said it fell flat and stand by that.

And Dr. Marcus. She put him in that position in the first place and her "saving" him came off more as dumb luck than the skill of an intelligent scientist. I suspect that's because they played it for laughs, imo.

Had Uhura not beamed down Spock would have died. Her actions didn't fall flat.

You know what?
Your whole attitude is sexist. You put the sex and gender of the characters before anything else.

 

[Maurice]

You know what?
Your whole attitude is sexist. You put the sex and gender of the characters before anything else.

And you've crossed the line by making it about the poster and not the post.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Then, when she beams down to "help" Spock, who's fighting Khan, again, her contribution falls flat to me. She has to rely on her boyfriend to take the bad guy out because he's more than her phaser can handle.

See this I don't get at all. Spock was getting his ass kicked and his head crushed from a relentless pounding machine of a eugenics superman. The phaser fire did not drop Khan but it did require that he righted himself with each hit.

BAM.. Khan stumbles backwards and then lunges towards her..

BAM.. Khan stumbles backwards and then lunges towards her..

Repeat several times. His head was thrown back and he was needing a moment to refocus and steady himself with each hit. This gave Spock what he needed, breathing space and thinking space and he was able to grab a weapon (prior to this he only had his fists) and smash Khan's head, knock him down and gain the upper hand. No doubt being stunned so many times made Khan less able to fight back.

And you know Uhura could have been the one that beamed down and fired the phaser on kill and won the day, but the story needed Khan alive. That was the only thing that stopped her from being the one who did in the bad guy on that platform.

They worked together and they both took Khan out. Nothing flat there. One thing the scene shows us is just how powerful Khan is and I've said before no one person is ever going to take him out in a fight.

 

[beamMe]

They worked together and they both took Khan out. Nothing flat there. One thing the scene shows us is just how powerful Khan is and I've said before no one person is ever going to take him out in a fight.

Exactly.

 

[Count Zero]

You know what?
Your whole attitude is sexist. You put the sex and gender of the characters before anything else.

And you've crossed the line by making it about the poster and not the post.

No, he hasn't. He would have crossed the line if he had insulted her which he hasn't. However, I recommend returning to the topic at hand which has already happened.

And please don't mini-mod, Maurice. If you think a post crosses the line use the notify button instead.

 

[Maurice]

That was an opinion, not a mod-attempt.

 

[Commishsleer]

The only people integral to the story are Kirk and Spock. Everything else is just fluffy stuff window dressing for Kirk and Spock. That includes Bone's bitching about things, Uhura kissing Spock, Marcus undoing torpedoes, Scotty faffing about..

It's Kirk and Spock vs their Enemy. And probably will be next movie.

There aren't many scenes in ST09 or STID without Kirk, Spock or McCoy in it. Come to think of it there aren't many scenes in TOS without Kirk, Spock or McCoy in it.
Its hard to sneak in a woman to woman scene in there without the main leads

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

In some of the older TOS movies, TMP in particular, there are people of ALL ages and weights (not a Shatner jest) on the ship. Many people seemingly at least 60 and not Hollywood 60 either. It's such a shock to see because age and weight diversity have been erased from Star Trek unless the whole point of the character is that they are old or a fat stereotype (Klingon cook in DS9, Opera singer in TNG).

Overweight people aren't allowed in the military to begin with (you have to keep your weight at a certain level or you get dismissed.) That's why you don't see a lot of fat people on any Star Trek TV show or in any movie besides Shatner and Doohan.

For the record, the few times I've seen the two new Star Trek movies, I've seen a ton of older people as admirals and commodores, and this was also so on Star Trek TNG (I remember the producers saying that when they cast admirals and commodores, all of them were middle-aged or older than middle aged actors, male and female).

Then, when she beams down to "help" Spock, who's fighting Khan, again, her contribution falls flat to me. She has to rely on her boyfriend to take the bad guy out because he's more than her phaser can handle.

See this I don't get at all. Spock was getting his ass kicked and his head crushed from a relentless pounding machine of a eugenics superman. The phaser fire did not drop Khan but it did require that he righted himself with each hit.

BAM.. Khan stumbles backwards and then lunges towards her..

BAM.. Khan stumbles backwards and then lunges towards her..

Repeat several times. His head was thrown back and he was needing a moment to refocus and steady himself with each hit. This gave Spock what he needed, breathing space and thinking space and he was able to grab a weapon (prior to this he only had his fists) and smash Khan's head, knock him down and gain the upper hand. No doubt being stunned so many times made Khan less able to fight back.

And you know Uhura could have been the one that beamed down and fired the phaser on kill and won the day, but the story needed Khan alive. That was the only thing that stopped her from being the one who did in the bad guy on that platform.

They worked together and they both took Khan out. Nothing flat there. One thing the scene shows us is just how powerful Khan is and I've said before no one person is ever going to take him out in a fight.

Add to which, if Khan had taken her on solely, her head would have been crushed just like Admiral Marcus's was. Also, Spock, being stronger than a human being anyway, was the only one to take on Khan at that moment (what everybody forgot about when criticizing this scene.)

 

[mattman8907]

personally this bechdel test can go fornicate with itself.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

TOS was never a so-called "ensemble show," and there's no reason that the new producers would turn it into one now.

So this is why we disagree.

It's not why I disagree with you, but whatever.

 

[Commishsleer]

Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.

I agree.

I don't want to waste time on irrelevant characters women or otherwise, but there might be room/time for a strong woman enemy co-worker who isn't anybody's girlfriend.

nuBSG was derived from a similar virtually all male series of BSG. The way they change the dynamic was having some of the leads change gender. They didn't choose to do this with nuTrek so they sort of have to live with male dominance to some extent.

 

[KittyDuran]

Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.

In the special meeting at Daystrom there were Admirals, Captains and First Officers - also, some of them either died or where injured (including one woman in the leg) when Khan attacked - the officers in the special meeting with Marcus when Kirk and Spock interrupt might be some of the survivors or replacements (but just happen to be all men). Also, at the time, before Kirk and Spock inform Marcus that Khan is on Kronos, it was believed that Khan was still either on Earth or in federation space - maybe Marcus was having more than one meeting with officers of different regions.

 

[Commishsleer]

Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.

In the special meeting at Daystrom there were Admirals, Captains and First Officers - also, some of them either died or where injured (including one woman in the leg) when Khan attacked - the officers in the special meeting with Marcus when Kirk and Spock interrupt might be some of the survivors or replacements (but just happen to be all men). Also, at the time, before Kirk and Spock inform Marcus that Khan is on Kronos, it was believed that Khan was still either on Earth or in federation space - maybe Marcus was having more than one meeting with officers of different regions.

I get the impression that Marcus' interrupted meeting was with the upper echelons which were all male. Perhaps JJ doesn't want to show older ladies on screen but maybe older men are acceptable.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It doesn't matter if they were the upper echelons or the cleaning staff. Making them all male is ridiculous and just dumb on JJ's part.

 

[KittyDuran]

It doesn't matter if they were the upper echelons or the cleaning staff. Making them all male is ridiculous and just dumb on JJ's part.

At the ceremony at the end of the movie - IIRC there was a good representation on the podium with Kirk (still don't like the short skirts - but that's because I never looked good in them when I was younger).

 

[KittyDuran]

It doesn't matter if they were the upper echelons or the cleaning staff. Making them all male is ridiculous and just dumb on JJ's part.

Or maybe JJ wants to show us that Marcus is really just a male chauvinist when the chips are down? (I know, I'm reaching!)