Star trek Into Darkness rates higher than Beyond in audience scores.

[fireproof78]

what was it about Into darkness that the vocal minority as you call them wanted and got or didn't get.

the only complain I hear about into darkness was the wrath of khan call backs which like someone has said was less than 3 minutes of the film.

Beyond tried to step away from any call backs to the oringal trek and people seem to have loved it.

I don't think it tried to step away from callbacks. I think there were several references and homages to TOS than at first blush. Kirk sitting and talking with Bones about being a starship captain is very similar to Pike and Boyce in "The Cage." That's among others, so I think Beyond tried to wrap little nods to TOS without being overt about it.

I think Into Darkness was better than Beyond. It was about something - the morality of drone strikes and American identity post 911. It felt like an epic and JJ shot the hell out of some of those scenes. Beyond felt much smaller scale and another poster called KGator sums it up best with this comment:
"The movie clearly did not resonate with the general audience. Despite the good reviews the movie never received "must see" word of mouth. It was "fun" but "forgettable" flick and without any real hook"

The bolded part I agree with, but Beyond hooked me with Kirk's arc. Less the "fun" (though it is that as well) and more the emotional journey of Kirk and Spock. The second trailer hooked me with that.

STB was more than that for me. There were plenty of hooks and little fan service-y moments that felt sincere, like the script was written by someone who really loves Star Trek (as it was). The Captain's Log at the beginning had me grinning from ear to ear. The reference to Who Mourns for Adonais in the movie and later in the credits was a nice touch. As was the "I ripped my shirt again" line, which almost put me on the floor. More seriously though, the scene in the bar with Bones and Kirk -- that's a powerful scene and a great moment of characterization. I also connected to the overall theme of the film, which is an important one -- about how soldiers are treated (or not treated) after they return from war, the psychological effects of war, and the challenge of letting go of resentment and fear with a former enemy. That's good Trek stuff.

Agree with this 100%!

 

[ricardocube]

Non-trek fans like Into Darkness. I liked into darkness a lot, but it went down hill after Cumberbatch said "my name is khan". Beyond was more trek-like, and thats why it didn't sell as well. Trek has never had mass public appeal.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Non-trek fans like Into Darkness.

Here we go again. I've watched Trek since I was a a small child and I love STID. So...

Beyond was more trek-like, and thats why it didn't sell as well.

That's a pretty simplistic explanation. There's a lot of factors why Beyond wasn't as financially successful. It had very poor marketing and did not carry a rising star name like Benedict Cumberbatch. A lot of people didn't even realize Idris Elba was in Beyond until the credits because of the heavy prosthetics he had to wear. Also have to factor in the relatively poor summer movie market this year in general, and its release date so close to Suicide Squad and Jason Bourne. Lots of other reasons that people have debated on here in the past. But just chalking it up to being "Trekkier" than STID is, well, reductive.

 

[ricardocube]

I know it sounds simple to suggest that a film that has more mass appeal sells one thats more niche, I know people don't like elephants in rooms so I won't labour the point. I also agree marketing and the lack of buzz between films had a lot do with it too. JJ jumping ship didn't help trek at the box office either.

 

[BillJ]

I don't think acting like Into Darkness didn't happen helped Beyond.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I don't think acting like Into Darkness didn't happen helped Beyond.

How could they have tied STID into Beyond though?

 

[BillJ]

How could they have tied STID into Beyond though?

They really should've made a different movie that used the loose ends from Into Darkness. Paramount got piss themselves scared over some internet loudmouths, and may have sunk their film franchise.

 

[wayne39]

They really should've made a different movie that used the loose ends from Into Darkness. Paramount got piss themselves scared over some internet loudmouths, and may have sunk their film franchise.

Beyond did feel more like a sequel to Into Darkness. spock wanting to go back home, kirk talking about his mother, the fate of new Vulcan and older spock's services to his people were very much a big part of the 09 film that Beyond touched upon.

I didn't think anything that happened in into darkness is brought up in Beyond unlike the 09 film.

 

[Malaika]

I don't think acting like Into Darkness didn't happen helped Beyond.

I don't necessarily think they had to address everything that happened in the movie, but the whole thing about Lin saying they'd ignore stid was bad publicity for me.
Mind you, that's not what Lin had actually said and I was among the ones annoyed by sites spreading this information .. but it didn't help that some of the things Lin and Pegg said, combined with even JJ apologizing almost for stid, essentially sold this idea that rather than being a sequel/continuation of the previous movies..this one was a departure, a tos fanfiction taking a different direction and ignoring things done by the other team. For the people who liked the other movies and were looking for a sequel, that counts.

this and the bad marketing sort of sabotaged Beyond a bit in terms of essentially failing, perhaps, capturing back an amount of the 'reboot fans' who liked the first movies, and represented the 'already won' audience that maybe you shouldn't alienate by making it seems the movie is for everyone but the very people who, well, already liked the reboot and made the first movies successful. I know people who liked the first movies and didn't even know there was a third one.

Honestly, Lin didn't come across to me as someone who liked the first movies and was inspired by THIS version of the characters...and it's a problem. The new team sadly fell a bit in the cliché of the new team that criticizes the previous one, albeit in a passive aggressive way. That's the least thing they should do because it's like a family business..if you inherited it you shouldn't criticize the previous owners in any shape or form unless they were total fail and had no clients..otherwise you'll damage your current business too and lose old clients.

 

[Kor]

While the storyline of ST:ID was arguably a little messy (which I actually don't mind at all, since in real life, the "story" is often a hot mess), I found it somewhat more engaging than ST:B, especially with Cumberbatch's performance. After having viewed ST:B three times, my considered opinion is that I don't enjoy it quite as much as ST:ID.

kor

 

[donners22]

ID is a better film than Beyond in several respects, particularly in its ambition, villains and cast.

I think the reaction from a portion of the fanbase was way over the top (the notion that it is the worst Trek film is laughable), though I can certainly understand disliking aspects of it - I wasn't keen on the whole homage thing or the mass destruction at the end.

Beyond was great fun, and did a lot of things right, but it was a very "safe" film. It's unsurprising that it made less of an impact.

 

[Trekkin]

I enjoyed BEY a lot, but didn't end up...immersed in it. I've seen someone describe it as observation vs immersion, and for some reason. I got stuck on 'observation' mode. A shitty theatre experience probably didn't help.

This is anecdotal, but the (non-Trekkie) people I saw it with, hated it. They were rather vocal about 'THERE WAS NO PLOT!!!!' Hearing that out loud was weird and almost...fan-board-like.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I don't necessarily think they had to address everything that happened in the movie, but the whole thing about Lin saying they'd ignore stid was bad publicity for me.
Mind you, that's not what Lin had actually said and I was among the ones annoyed by sites spreading this information .. but it didn't help that some of the things Lin and Pegg said, combined with even JJ apologizing almost for stid, essentially sold this idea that rather than being a sequel/continuation of the previous movies..this one was a departure, a tos fanfiction taking a different direction and ignoring things done by the other team. For the people who liked the other movies and were looking for a sequel, that counts.

this and the bad marketing sort of sabotaged Beyond a bit in terms of essentially failing, perhaps, capturing back an amount of the 'reboot fans' who liked the first movies, and represented the 'already won' audience that maybe you shouldn't alienate by making it seems the movie is for everyone but the very people who, well, already liked the reboot and made the first movies successful. I know people who liked the first movies and didn't even know there was a third one.

Honestly, Lin didn't come across to me as someone who liked the first movies and was inspired by THIS version of the characters...and it's a problem. The new team sadly fell a bit in the cliché of the new team that criticizes the previous one, albeit in a passive aggressive way. That's the least thing they should do because it's like a family business..if you inherited it you shouldn't criticize the previous owners in any shape or form unless they were total fail and had no clients..otherwise you'll damage your current business too and lose old clients.

I can't help but think they'd have been better off doing whatever Orci had cooked up for 3. The underling theme of the first film was about the altering of the timeline and the changes it created, the 2nd continued it and was about the prime timeline sort of seeping back into this new one (blowing up at the end) albeit with different outcomes.. maybe the 3rd should've been about an attempted restoration of the prime timeline and all that would involve (so it'd be a sort of 'timeline trilogy' dealing with the altering of the timeline and everything it brings about, like the BTTF trilogy was a timeline trilogy) Not veering off into this unrelated standalone 'TOS fanfiction.' (calling it 'Beyond' as if it was beyond all that timeline malarkey to instead do a TOS episode writ large) It sounds like if there is to be a 4th it will be what 3 should've been with the same writers (time travel/alt timeline, but looks to be Hemsworth instead of Shatner) in which case STB would be like if TFF had come in between TSFS and TVH.. (as it was TFF was still a unrelated 'standalone' movie between TVH and the more connected TUC, not really anything to do with 2346 at all.)

 

[BillJ]

I have the Beyond 4K UHD disc pre-ordered from Amazon, it'll show up Tuesday. Maybe my feelings about it will change...

 

[captainkirk]

I've only seen Beyond once right now due to ticket prices and the horrible projection quality at our local cinema, but as much as I enjoyed it, it just didn't give me as much to think about as the previous two.
The first movie had a simple story but was a really satisfying experience that left you thinking about the whole new universe of possibilities it created.
The second one slight wasted that by using Khan but made up for it by telling a complex story with actual themes and moral issues. When I walked out I didn't feel satisfied in the same way as ST09, not because it was bad, but because I felt like immediately watching the next episode in the TV series that this should have been.
Beyond had some really good moments and lines, and Jaylah is probably the best character created for a Star Trek movie in a long time, but it just felt like it was lacking something. Maybe part of it was the destruction of the Enterprise (in the anniversary movie, the Enterprise should not be treated as a redshirt) but mostly I think it's the thinness of the plot. STID, ST09, and NEM were all criticized for being about a madman wanting revenge, and both Pegg and Lin promised to do something different, until the last 15 minutes of the movie were Krall turns out to be a madman wanting revenge, and for a much weaker reason than Khan or Nero. And then what did Kirk learn from the experience? His arc is basically "I'm old and space is boring. All I do is get my uniform eaten by space monkeys, I should quit and get a desk job instead. Oh wait, my ship is destroyed, most of my crew is dead and a psycho tried to melt me. Why would I want to give this up?" Compare that to the previous movies where we first see Kirk go from loser to hero, which makes him overconfident, and then to a capable leader.
I know this may feel like Beyond-bashing, but I did genuinely like the movie. I just feel that the previous movies (STID in particular) had more substance and were more interesting and this is the reason for STID having higher critical scores.

 

[Smellmet]

I've only seen Beyond once right now due to ticket prices and the horrible projection quality at our local cinema, but as much as I enjoyed it, it just didn't give me as much to think about as the previous two.
The first movie had a simple story but was a really satisfying experience that left you thinking about the whole new universe of possibilities it created.
The second one slight wasted that by using Khan but made up for it by telling a complex story with actual themes and moral issues. When I walked out I didn't feel satisfied in the same way as ST09, not because it was bad, but because I felt like immediately watching the next episode in the TV series that this should have been.
Beyond had some really good moments and lines, and Jaylah is probably the best character created for a Star Trek movie in a long time, but it just felt like it was lacking something. Maybe part of it was the destruction of the Enterprise (in the anniversary movie, the Enterprise should not be treated as a redshirt) but mostly I think it's the thinness of the plot. STID, ST09, and NEM were all criticized for being about a madman wanting revenge, and both Pegg and Lin promised to do something different, until the last 15 minutes of the movie were Krall turns out to be a madman wanting revenge, and for a much weaker reason than Khan or Nero. And then what did Kirk learn from the experience? His arc is basically "I'm old and space is boring. All I do is get my uniform eaten by space monkeys, I should quit and get a desk job instead. Oh wait, my ship is destroyed, most of my crew is dead and a psycho tried to melt me. Why would I want to give this up?" Compare that to the previous movies where we first see Kirk go from loser to hero, which makes him overconfident, and then to a capable leader.
I know this may feel like Beyond-bashing, but I did genuinely like the movie. I just feel that the previous movies (STID in particular) had more substance and were more interesting and this is the reason for STID having higher critical scores.

You've raised some excellent points there, you've summed up well the weakness of the film, and I can't disagree with much, if any of it. It gets a pass from me simply by being one hell of a fun film. The tributes in the film, in particular the photo were superbly done and moving too, in a way that the reactor scene in STID totally failed to do, despite the good acting on show. I can't wait to scrutinise the gorgeous visuals when I get the blu ray too. I agree that beyond came across as a bit 'lightweight' though.

 

[fireproof78]

I've only seen Beyond once right now due to ticket prices and the horrible projection quality at our local cinema, but as much as I enjoyed it, it just didn't give me as much to think about as the previous two.
The first movie had a simple story but was a really satisfying experience that left you thinking about the whole new universe of possibilities it created.
The second one slight wasted that by using Khan but made up for it by telling a complex story with actual themes and moral issues. When I walked out I didn't feel satisfied in the same way as ST09, not because it was bad, but because I felt like immediately watching the next episode in the TV series that this should have been.
Beyond had some really good moments and lines, and Jaylah is probably the best character created for a Star Trek movie in a long time, but it just felt like it was lacking something. Maybe part of it was the destruction of the Enterprise (in the anniversary movie, the Enterprise should not be treated as a redshirt) but mostly I think it's the thinness of the plot. STID, ST09, and NEM were all criticized for being about a madman wanting revenge, and both Pegg and Lin promised to do something different, until the last 15 minutes of the movie were Krall turns out to be a madman wanting revenge, and for a much weaker reason than Khan or Nero. And then what did Kirk learn from the experience? His arc is basically "I'm old and space is boring. All I do is get my uniform eaten by space monkeys, I should quit and get a desk job instead. Oh wait, my ship is destroyed, most of my crew is dead and a psycho tried to melt me. Why would I want to give this up?" Compare that to the previous movies where we first see Kirk go from loser to hero, which makes him overconfident, and then to a capable leader.
I know this may feel like Beyond-bashing, but I did genuinely like the movie. I just feel that the previous movies (STID in particular) had more substance and were more interesting and this is the reason for STID having higher critical scores.

While you raise some good points, I think part of the issue is that Kirk's arc gets glossed over rather quickly in terms of what is driving him. It isn't that he's bored-he's directionless. His birthday has come, and he's older than his dad ever will be. If that doesn't impact everyone, I get that, but it impacts me. Possibly because it is more personal because my own dad is facing that here very soon.

Sorry, Kirk's arc reminded me of PIke's from "The Cage." Did Pike stay on as captain of the Enterprise? Did his encounter with the Talosians reinvigorate his exploration spirit?

I don't know how else to explain it. Kirk feels like a man in search for meaning, moving away from his father's shadow, and owning his own role. It's basically a mid-life crisis in space

 

[drt]

I think the reason Kirk's arc is a bit clumsy is that from my understanding, it was kind of tacked on afterwards via the reshoots with Shohreh Aghdashloo. I wonder if it was different initially, or they felt after some preliminary screenings that having both Kirk and Spock thinking of leaving worked a little better.

 

[captainkirk]

It gets a pass from me simply by being one hell of a fun film. The tributes in the film, in particular the photo were superbly done and moving too, in a way that the reactor scene in STID totally failed to do, despite the good acting on show. I can't wait to scrutinise the gorgeous visuals when I get the blu ray too. I agree that beyond came across as a bit 'lightweight' though.

I agree with everything you've said except about the reactor scene. I'll be thrown to the bloodworms for this but I actually preferred the STID version to the WOK version. But I'm absolutely with you on the photo scene. I wasn't expecting that it really got to me.

While you raise some good points, I think part of the issue is that Kirk's arc gets glossed over rather quickly in terms of what is driving him. It isn't that he's bored-he's directionless. His birthday has come, and he's older than his dad ever will be. If that doesn't impact everyone, I get that, but it impacts me. Possibly because it is more personal because my own dad is facing that here very soon.

Sorry, Kirk's arc reminded me of PIke's from "The Cage." Did Pike stay on as captain of the Enterprise? Did his encounter with the Talosians reinvigorate his exploration spirit?

I don't know how else to explain it. Kirk feels like a man in search for meaning, moving away from his father's shadow, and owning his own role. It's basically a mid-life crisis in space

That's part of why I so wish this cast had been in a TV series instead of a movie series. The way I imagine it ST09 would be the pilot, STID the season one finale, and STB the season two premiere. That way the character development could happen at a more natural pace. The problem I have with the way it's shown is that I'm not quite sure how Kirk finds his direction, which isn't really different from his previous direction.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree with everything you've said except about the reactor scene. I'll be thrown to the bloodworms for this but I actually preferred the STID version to the WOK version. But I'm absolutely with you on the photo scene. I wasn't expecting that it really got to me.

I'll be thrown with you on that point, then. Bring on the bloodworms, I say.

That's part of why I so wish this cast had been in a TV series instead of a movie series. The way I imagine it ST09 would be the pilot, STID the season one finale, and STB the season two premiere. That way the character development could happen at a more natural pace. The problem I have with the way it's shown is that I'm not quite sure how Kirk finds his direction, which isn't really different from his previous direction.

I saw it as a matter of purpose. Kirk is an adventurous guy, but he slowly takes on the more father role that Pike was to him. He's protective of his crew, and decides, by extension, that he can protect the Federation this way as well.

At least, that was my read. I agree that it could work better as a TV season opener, setting the tone for Kirk's arc.