Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

[JediKnightButler]

I don't know if this has come up before but- given that INS was set during the Dominion War- how/why would the Federation Council agree to any kind of joint projects with the Son'a knowing, as Riker reveals during an early scene, the Son'a are one of the Dominion's primary suppliers or source of Ketracel-White for the Jem'Hadar in AQ? Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow? Did the Son'a ever appear (or were they ever even mentioned) in DS9? I'm on S7 of DS9 and never heard them brought up.......yet.

 

[Admiral_Sisko]

I don't know if this has come up before but- given that INS was set during the Dominion War- how/why would the Federation Council agree to any kind of joint projects with the Son'a knowing, as Riker reveals during an early scene, the Son'a are one of the Dominion's primary suppliers or source of Ketracel-White for the Jem'Hadar in AQ? Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow? Did the Son'a ever appear (or were they ever even mentioned) in DS9. I'm on S7 of DS9 and never heard them brought up.......yet.

1. Picard was skeptical of the idea of collaboration and voiced his concerns to Admiral Dougherty, to which the latter replied, "Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire. We can handle the Son'a." Clearly, the Federation was desperate, but they also believed that any threat posed by the Son'a was less significant than what they were already contending with by fighting the Dominion.

2. There's a brief exchange between Weyoun and Damar about diverting Cardassian troops to protect a Son'a outpost during the seventh season, so their presence is referenced, however briefly.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Agree to help the Son'a with a project to get to know them better, develop trust, and then coerce them to stem the flow of Ketracel White?

 

[JediKnightButler]

Agree to help the Son'a with a project to get to know them better, develop trust, and then coerce them to stem the flow of Ketracel White?

Hadn't thought of it that but it does make sense. Attract more flies with honey, so they say...........

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I don't know if this has come up before but- given that INS was set during the Dominion War- how/why would the Federation Council agree to any kind of joint projects with the Son'a knowing, as Riker reveals during an early scene, the Son'a are one of the Dominion's primary suppliers or source of Ketracel-White for the Jem'Hadar in AQ? Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow? Did the Son'a ever appear (or were they ever even mentioned) in DS9? I'm on S7 of DS9 and never heard them brought up.......yet.

Weyoun references the Son'a in the DS9 episode 7X17 Penumbra.

Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends. So it doesn't completely undermine how "desperate" the war was as we see and is stated repeatedly on DS9.

By undermine I mean the presentation as it relates to TNG and DS9 during that time period. Maybe the war was a nightmare for Sisko and the gang but for Picard and crew they were probably having a much easier time during the war.

You look at the most notable Dominion War episodes "A Time To Stand, Rocks and Shoals, Sons and Daughters, Behind the Lines, Favor The Bold, Sacrifice of Angels, The Siege of AR-558, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, The Changing Face of Evil, and What You Leave Behind" You see the Federation is on the robes quite a lot from the DS9 point of view.

You watch INS and you hear both Picard and Ru'afo talk about the Dominion War as some thing that's in the past. Even Worf who was in many Dominion encounters seems to be more than chipper himself in INS. That's not to suggest the ENT-E had it easy. The sovereign class is a juggernaunt by herself, and we know the Dominion attacked Earth, Betazad, and Vulcan. It's possible they may have led campaigns against other Federation core worlds like Andoria, Tellar, Kronos etc. DS9 was just so damn localized to it's own little niche in the quadrant that any reference to a planet outside Bajor or Cardassia was a very rare occurence. Not to mention other ships fighting the war.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends.

I think it was meant to be set in the seventh season of DS9. Worf became Federation Ambassador on Kronos when DS9 ended, in Insurrection he is wearing a Starfleet uniform and Picard orders him to delay his return to DS9.

It really doesn't make any sense for the Enterprise to go on archeological research while the rest of the fleet was fighting the Dominion ... but the producers were afraid that the average moviegoer would be too stupid to understand that there was a war going on. The strange thing is that the war is being referenced in the movie several times, it could just as well have been a major part of it. Three lines of explanation for those who have never seen DS9 would have been enough. The biggest missed opportunity in Star Trek ever!

 

[T'Girl]

It really doesn't make any sense for the Enterprise to go on archeological research while the rest of the fleet was fighting the Dominion

Unless the archaeological expedition on Hanoran Two had something to with the war effort. They were looking for something.

 

[tighr]

Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow?

The Federation was desperate for the technology the Son'a could promise. Harnessing the power of the planet to heal injuries and essentially extend life would be hugely beneficial to the war effort. It was a joint operation with the Son'a in which the Federation supplies the manpower and the funds, and the Son'a provide their technology. The fact that the Son'a also cooperated with the Dominion was of little consequence to their goal of obtaining the life preserving technology.

 

[Lance]

Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends.

I think it was meant to be set in the seventh season of DS9. Worf became Federation Ambassador on Kronos when DS9 ended, in Insurrection he is wearing a Starfleet uniform and Picard orders him to delay his return to DS9.

I tend to agree, it's clearly meant to take place in DS9's season seven. Wasn't there going to be a mention of the recent death of Jadzia in an earlier draft of the story?

This all reminds me, back in 1999 our local television channels were still showing DS9 somewhere in Season Five, and the VHS releases were only a fraction further than that. I remember being terribly confused by a lot of what is mentioned about the DS9 side of the Dominion War in INS at the time (I do understand that it was contemporaneous to where DS9 was at in the US broadcasts).

 

[sonak]

Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow?

The Federation was desperate for the technology the Son'a could promise. Harnessing the power of the planet to heal injuries and essentially extend life would be hugely beneficial to the war effort. It was a joint operation with the Son'a in which the Federation supplies the manpower and the funds, and the Son'a provide their technology. The fact that the Son'a also cooperated with the Dominion was of little consequence to their goal of obtaining the life preserving technology.

yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.

 

[StewMc]

I tend to agree, it's clearly meant to take place in DS9's season seven. Wasn't there going to be a mention of the recent death of Jadzia in an earlier draft of the story?

The early draft leaked online had Picard ask Worf how his bride was, to which he replied "A challenge". Presumably they just ditched any reference to Jadzia altogether after DS9 killed her off.

 

[hayesc0]

it was during the war picard mentions it at the end of the movie its been said a million time should have been a dominion war movie

 

[JediKnightButler]

Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends. So it doesn't completely undermine how "desperate" the war was as we see and is stated repeatedly on DS9.

By undermine I mean the presentation as it relates to TNG and DS9 during that time period. Maybe the war was a nightmare for Sisko and the gang but for Picard and crew they were probably having a much easier time during the war.

You look at the most notable Dominion War episodes "A Time To Stand, Rocks and Shoals, Sons and Daughters, Behind the Lines, Favor The Bold, Sacrifice of Angels, The Siege of AR-558, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, The Changing Face of Evil, and What You Leave Behind" You see the Federation is on the robes quite a lot from the DS9 point of view.

You watch INS and you hear both Picard and Ru'afo talk about the Dominion War as some thing that's in the past. Even Worf who was in many Dominion encounters seems to be more than chipper himself in INS. That's not to suggest the ENT-E had it easy. The sovereign class is a juggernaunt by herself, and we know the Dominion attacked Earth, Betazad, and Vulcan. It's possible they may have led campaigns against other Federation core worlds like Andoria, Tellar, Kronos etc. DS9 was just so damn localized to it's own little niche in the quadrant that any reference to a planet outside Bajor or Cardassia was a very rare occurence. Not to mention other ships fighting the war.

I disagree with you that INS is set after the Dominion War based on several cues (some of which are mentioned by other posters). I would add to the list Picard's comments about Dominion negotiations being ongoing (around "Statistical Probabilities"?), the Federation trying to bring more races in to the fold, presumably to help the war effort (i.e. the Alien race that Picard is meeting with when we first see the Enterprise crew), Picard's comments to Worf about "how they do things on DS9" when Worf fails to show up at his post on time, and the new dress uniforms (which were first seen in DS9 S7 ep "Inter Arnim Enim Silent Leges"- though they may have been introduced earlier but we just didn't see them until then) There is almost nothing to suggest in the movie takes place following the Dominion War. Plus, it was released in 1998, which was the general (real-life) timeframe between S6 & S7 of DS9, making it much more likely for the movie to fall in that time period IMHO

 

[Timo]

The strange thing is that the war is being referenced in the movie several times

Hmh? I never heard a single reference.

- The word "war" is never used in the movie, anywhere.
- The word "Dominion" is only used three times. Two of these are in reference to past calamities, grouped together with the likes of the Borg or the Cardassians. One is in reference to negotiations, a likely postwar endeavor.
- The heroes never mention anybody engaging in combat, anywhere, at any point, other than themselves as regards the onscreen events.

Negotiations and gathering of allies are typical postwar activities, especially when there has been no clear-cut victory or defeat. "What You Leave Behind" ends on an especially ambiguous note, there being no hint as to what the conditions of the peace or truce might be, and no mention of the Dominion withdrawing from its conquests or making reparations. Solidifying one's positions would be extremely important in a war that ends with more than one victor.

There is almost nothing to suggest in the movie takes place following the Dominion War.

Except for

- the total absence of references to an ongoing war of any sort
- the plot concept that is at complete odds with an ongoing war against the Son'a or their allies
- the total absence of war effort from the lives of our heroes, amounting to desertion if a war really were ongoing...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

According to the timeline at the end of Voyages of Imagination, Insurrection takes place between the DS9 episodes "Covenant" and "It's Only a Paper Moon"

I always took the line about ongoing Dominion negotiations to mean the film took place immedately after DS9, when details of the Dominion's surrender were being worked out.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

[
yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.

Becuase a finite source of magic youth particles really helps with getting shot by a weapon set to kill or being exploded

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion meaning, Yay advantage nullification.

 

[sonak]

[
yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.

Becuase a finite source of magic youth particles really helps with getting shot by a weapon set to kill or being exploded

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion meaning, Yay advantage nullification.

it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops, and it would heal most battlefield injuries, and heal conditions which would have prevented others from joining the war effort in the first place. The fact that you brought up about the only scenario in which they WOULDN'T help doesn't exactly negate my argument.

As for your second point, I would hope that the UFP would be smart enough to conclude a deal whereby in exchange for giving the Son'a access to the planet, they would agree not to share the particles with the Dominion or their allies.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

[
yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.

Becuase a finite source of magic youth particles really helps with getting shot by a weapon set to kill or being exploded

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion meaning, Yay advantage nullification.

it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops,

Again not helpful against being blown up, sucked into space, vaporized, or just killed by an energy blast instantly (which is how the kill setting works).

and it would heal most battlefield injuries,

Where in the movie was that ever said, all it did was cure blindness and make everyone younger and it does that temporarily which is probably not a good thing about a again finite (as in runs out) amount of particles.

and heal conditions which would have prevented others from joining the war effort in the first place.

Doesn't federation technology already take care of most of that already

The fact that you brought up about the only scenario in which they WOULDN'T help doesn't exactly negate my argument.

Considering the scenario covers pretty much what all the battles of the war shown involved and probably all the ones not shown as well yes it does, or is Starfleet not usually seen either fighting the Dominion in space battles necessary to get to planets to invade or in ground battles using the kill setting which pretty much insta-kills people aka why its called the KILL setting

As for your second point, I would hope that the UFP would be smart enough to conclude a deal whereby in exchange for giving the Son'a access to the planet, they would agree not to share the particles with the Dominion or their allies.

And the Son'a would honor this agreement why exactly?

I mean hell a lot of the time it looked like the Federation was going to lose why screw over the Dominion when it looks like their going to be in charge in the end?

 

[T'Girl]

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion

This is after the Dominion War ended, so ...

- Odo has already given the Founders the cure to section 31's engineered sickness.

- The Founders otherwise won't have any personal need for the particles, I believe they are already immoral.

- The Founder care nothing for their solid slaves and subjects.

Hartzilla2007, doesn't that pretty much prevent the Sona from from sharing with the Founders?

And the Son'a would honor this agreement why exactly?

Because they kept their side of their agreement with the Federation in Insurrection, at least until a single starship Captain decided that he would impress a certain blond Baku MILF by making decisions for the entire Federation.

It wasn't the Sona that broke that existing agreement, why would they break a future one?

Considering the scenario covers pretty much what all the battles of the war shown involved ..

Wrong again my friend. Starfleet vessels were routinely shown to take heavy damage that didn't destroy the ship, and didn't kill everyone aboard.

about a again finite (as in runs out) amount of particles.

You mean like the particles "ran out" while they were in orbit of the ring planet?

Oh, that's right, they didn't.

it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops

Also would enable the Federation to rejuvenate long retired experienced personnel, pull them out of retirement.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Meanwhile there's really nothing to stop the So'na from sharing their particles with the Dominion

This is after the Dominion War ended

So they specifically said when the film takes place, because it could be either way and since the person I am responding to is of the opinion that Insurrection takes place during the war that's why I'm pointing that problem out.

And the Son'a would honor this agreement why exactly?

Because they kept their side of their agreement with the Federation in Insurrection,

Yes because one group staying on another group's good side when they haven't gotten what they wanted yet an as such still need good relations with the other group to get it really shows how they act after not needing that other group anymore.

News flash you can't say for certain if the Son'a would screw the Feds over or not until they got the particles and considering Ru'afo doesn't particularly like the federation given his rant about how much harder federation procedure and politics made everything and his belief that all Picard had to do to put a stop to everything was complain to the council I think the Feds would get screwed over.

about a again finite (as in runs out) amount of particles.

You mean like the particles "ran out" while they were in orbit of the ring planet?

Oh, that's right, they didn't.

"Ran out" as in the amount they harvest runs out since the simulation kind of looks like the rings are destroyed meaning no new source of particles

it would help by doubling the life-span of your available troops

Also would enable the Federation to rejuvenate long retired experienced personnel, pull them out of retirement.

Which doesn't help with getting shot or spaced or blown into little pieces

And it doesn't matter if the entire ship wasn't destroyed the poor bastards standing the the section that were still probably got spaced if they were standing in it when the section was destroyed like Kirk was thought to have been in Generations and if not blasted by shrapnel is still a possibility and Riker and Garrett didn't look like they were getting up again in Yesterday's Enterprise after they got hit with it.

So no I don't think magic youth particles mean jack in a war.