Star Trek II TWOK Parallel Universe??

[Lt. Tyler]

We all know that Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan was a reboot. We all know it takes place years after The Motion Picture and everyone and everything is a lot older. Not to mention the different uniforms, bridge stations changed around ( how and why did they did that as far as "in universe" seems very odd.) Anyway, my point is everything seems at odds with TMP. The whole militarization of Starfleet, no longer an exploratory space organization (again talking "in universe" we all know why Nicholas Myer did all of this) and all the continuity errors in this film that have been discussed on this message board for years. Is there any argument at all to make for TWOK not being of the same universe as TOS-TAS-TMP? or is that too radical of an idea? It just seems that the look and the feel of the Star Trek universe from TWOK through TUC is completely different in every way.

 

[Paradise City]

Maybe the Klingon threat intensified requiring a deeper concentration on defence capacities in the intervening period. I'm fairly happy with the transition between the two movies myself. For me a similar change occurs with Starfleet with the Borg and Dominion threats. The more luxurious fixtures and fittings of the Galaxy Class ship giving way (or reverting back) to a more austere aesthetic seen on the Intrepid, Defiant and Sovereign Class ships.

The equilibrium between exploration and defence probably proceeds in cycles depending on "war & peace" circumstances that are prevailing in the galaxy at any given point in history.

 

[BJ Wagner]

Besides the changes to the uniforms, colour of the Enterprise sets and some props, I don't see a big difference or a militarization of Starfleet between TMP and WOK. We see science and exploitation in the missions of Reliant and Grissom. The Saratoga didn't fire on the probe in TVH, they attempted to communicate with it. I figure the two films take place about 10 years apart--I assume after another 5 year voyage of the refit Enterprise. Fashions and technology change. Yes, the adventures of the crew changed to fit the structure of the film series, but I never felt that Starfeet as a whole was any different than that of TOS thru DS9. Exploration, defense, aid, it was anything the writers wanted it to be.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Anyway, my point is everything seems at odds with TMP.

Since much of TMP was at odds with TOS, I didn't --and don't-- have a problem with that.

Is there any argument at all to make for TWOK not being of the same universe as TOS-TAS-TMP? or is that too radical of an idea?

If you're going to throw one of the movies out, it makes much more sense to say that TMP is a separate universe, IMO. It's the clear outlier in the film series.

Maybe the Klingon threat intensified requiring a deeper concentration on defence capacities in the intervening period.

You know, my headcanon used to include a war with the Romulans between TMP and TWOK to explain the increased militarism. I chose the Romulans over the Klingons just for variety's sake.

 

[Ithekro]

I would assume the Klingons only due to the Kobayashi Maru being presented in the film. But also the way the Klingons are presented in the remaining films indicates the Federation and Klingons Empires have been having even more problems in recent years verse the laters season of TOS.

 

[Tosk]

I think the world we're living in right now must be in a different universe to the one my parents grew up in. Fashion, technology, economics...the differences are astounding.

 

[BJ Wagner]

Not parallel, rebooted.

Back when I was young, people changed, but everything carried on as usual--like the original James Bond franchise.

Now, about every 10 years, when people change, we all assume everything else does as well. Facts are manipulated, history distorted to shape the present, allies become enemies, and vice versa--like the recent James Bond franchise.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Practically anything may have happened between the movies. A brief shooting war between the Federation and the Klingons (whatever did happen to the Organians anyways), heightened tension with the Romulans. Hell, things may have even kicked off with the Tholians or Gorns for all we know.

 

[Christopher]

bridge stations changed around ( how and why did they did that as far as "in universe" seems very odd.)

Not really. The TMP bridge was newly refitted, trying out a technological upgrade for the first time. It's not unreasonable to think that some of the new console positions didn't really work out and got changed around for better ergonomics. For instance, having the science station directly behind the captain, as it was in TMP, doesn't seem like a great idea, given how heavily the captain depends on reports from the science officer. TWOK's decision to put it back in its original position seems reasonable.

Is there any argument at all to make for TWOK not being of the same universe as TOS-TAS-TMP? or is that too radical of an idea?

When the movie came out, there were a lot of people who didn't think it fit in the same reality as TOS. But then, there are people who think that about every new incarnation of Trek. In the '70s, they were saying the animated series wasn't in continuity with TOS (and many still do). Then they were saying TMP and TWOK and the rest were a different reality, that TNG was a different reality, that ENT was a different reality, that the Abrams films must be a complete reboot rather than the divergent timeline they claim. But over time, those arguments have always gotten sidelined as the majority of fans and creators have treated it all as a unified whole -- and as the purists have shifted their ire to the next new thing. You can bet that when Discovery comes out, there will be plenty of fans loudly insisting that it must be in an alternate universe rather than the Prime timeline.

 

[inflatabledalek]

Not really. The TMP bridge was newly refitted, trying out a technological upgrade for the first time. It's not unreasonable to think that some of the new console positions didn't really work out and got changed around for better ergonomics. For instance, having the science station directly behind the captain, as it was in TMP, doesn't seem like a great idea, given how heavily the captain depends on reports from the science officer. TWOK's decision to put it back in its original position seems reasonable.

Whilst the bridge stations being modular makes a degree of sense, it was the way the turbo lifts moved around (or at least, the number of stations between them changing) that always got me. That's not just moving a door, you have to move the entire shaft! No wonder Scotty is behind schedule in V if that's the sort of thing he gets up to.

Come to that, maybe that's why the turbo shaft seen in that film seemed so odd...

 

[Ithekro]

I don't seem to recall the turbolift doors shifting between the TMP and TWOK. The console between the two doors changed, but I don't recall their spacing to have changed.

The Reliant had the turbolift directly behind the captain's chair.

Between Star Trek's IV, V, and IV it seems logical they did some major reworking in the Enterprise, including a completely ne bridge module. It could be simple. have a horizontal track at C level and just change where the car comes in the top from A and B decks. It might also round-a-bout way a showing why the turbolifts were not working below C deck in TWOK.

 

[Paradise City]

Well, these things tended to ebb and flow with Roddenberry's influence. The movie-makers wanted to give Trek more teeth and largely humoured Roddenberry, then after Roddenberry died, Berman tried to remember a little of Roddenberry whilst moving into other spaces with TNG..et al with various degrees of success.

But anyhow. It seems to me logical that the Federation and the Galaxy aren't just these static things that stays fixed like blocks of granite. That much like the big powers on earth, the different galactic powers enjoy periods of where their fortunes ebb and flow. With the Feds there are cycles when peace where science and exploration flourish and other periods where they are under pressure from rivals nagging at their frontier and this demands a heavier emphasis on defence and diplomacy.

We don't know too much about the movie era except that the Klingon's dominate the Federation's field of vision. There seems to be some kind of undeclared Cold War underway that's nevertheless characterised by expensive guerrilla engagements requiring greater demands on resources for defence. The Klingons are able to slip some ships behind the lines so to speak so likely there's a sense of tension and instability outside of the core Federation systems.

One may also perhaps speculate that various small powers are taking advantage of this difficulty and perhaps gnawing at other sectors of the Federation's apparently long stretches of borders. It's only the Organians that are perhaps exerting a restraining influence so that things don't deteriorate into an all out hot war. But still the Federation is keen for a peace process and are quick off the starting line when Praxis does explode.

TUC seems to indicate that the Federation gets on very well with the Romulans! The dodgy ambassador even sits in on a top secret security meeting, lol! A mistake that presumably - but one might assume the Feds do enjoy a brief but cozy relationship with the Romulans perhaps reflecting that a short lived liberal regime prevails on Romulus.

As for the bridge fixtures and fittings and where the turbolift door is -- well there's such a radical difference between the "HMS Bounty" BoP and Doc Brown's BoP that Star Trek VI might as well be in an alternative universe as well!

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's a quote out there from director Nick Meyer, when asked if Wrath of Khan explains the (then-)new uniforms. His reply was, "We don't. The other film does not exist."

Yes, we fans can wank up all the workarounds we want (isn't it around ten years lin-universe between movies? Plenty of room for upgrades/downgrades etc, new unifroms etc), but never lose sight of Wrath of Khan being made by a guy deliberately ignoring The Motion Picture.

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's a quote out there from director Nick Meyer, when asked if Wrath of Khan explains the (then-)new uniforms. His reply was, "We don't. The other film does not exist."

Yes, we fans can wank up all the workarounds we want (isn't it around ten years lin-universe between movies? Plenty of room for upgrades/downgrades etc, new unifroms etc), but never lose sight of Wrath of Khan being made by a guy deliberately ignoring The Motion Picture.

 

[Paradise City]

Well, I never detected any "unbridgeable" differences between the two films and that's all that really matters to me.

 

[Christopher]

Whilst the bridge stations being modular makes a degree of sense, it was the way the turbo lifts moved around (or at least, the number of stations between them changing) that always got me. That's not just moving a door, you have to move the entire shaft!

That didn't happen. The shafts stayed where they were, and there was only one station between them. In TMP, it was the science station; in TWOK, it was the internal security station. Both stations were the same width.

Essentially, four stations were rearranged in TWOK. Internal security replaced science (between turbolifts), science replaced engineering (one slot counterclockwise from the starboard turbolift), engineering replaced environmental engineering (two slots clockwise from port turbolift, between communications and weapons/defense), and environmental engineering replaced internal security (two slots counterclockwise from starboard lift). So basically the TWOK layout restored Spock to his original position and put Scotty back on Uhura's right, although both of them were rotated further to the front.

 

[Galileo7]

Not parallel universe, just time passing between TOS-TAS and TMP...between TMP and WOK. Plus, as stated, Nicholas Meyers soft reboot ignoring TMP, but not ignoring TOS.

 

[Dukhat]

If William Hartnell's Doctor Who stories can be in the same universe as Chris Eccleston's, then TOS/TMP and TWOK can exist in the same universe.

 

[Phoenix219]

Well, these things tended to ebb and flow with Roddenberry's influence. The movie-makers wanted to give Trek more teeth and largely humoured Roddenberry, then after Roddenberry died, Berman tried to remember a little of Roddenberry whilst moving into other spaces with TNG..et al with various degrees of success.

But anyhow. It seems to me logical that the Federation and the Galaxy aren't just these static things that stays fixed like blocks of granite. That much like the big powers on earth, the different galactic powers enjoy periods of where their fortunes ebb and flow. With the Feds there are cycles when peace where science and exploration flourish and other periods where they are under pressure from rivals nagging at their frontier and this demands a heavier emphasis on defence and diplomacy.

We don't know too much about the movie era except that the Klingon's dominate the Federation's field of vision. There seems to be some kind of undeclared Cold War underway that's nevertheless characterised by expensive guerrilla engagements requiring greater demands on resources for defence. The Klingons are able to slip some ships behind the lines so to speak so likely there's a sense of tension and instability outside of the core Federation systems.

One may also perhaps speculate that various small powers are taking advantage of this difficulty and perhaps gnawing at other sectors of the Federation's apparently long stretches of borders. It's only the Organians that are perhaps exerting a restraining influence so that things don't deteriorate into an all out hot war. But still the Federation is keen for a peace process and are quick off the starting line when Praxis does explode.

TUC seems to indicate that the Federation gets on very well with the Romulans! The dodgy ambassador even sits in on a top secret security meeting, lol! A mistake that presumably - but one might assume the Feds do enjoy a brief but cozy relationship with the Romulans perhaps reflecting that a short lived liberal regime prevails on Romulus.

As for the bridge fixtures and fittings and where the turbolift door is -- well there's such a radical difference between the "HMS Bounty" BoP and Doc Brown's BoP that Star Trek VI might as well be in an alternative universe as well!

The Federation seemed to be getting along pretty well with the Romulans during Star Trek V as well, what with Nimbus III and the Romulan ambassador. I wonder what led to the Romulans heading towards isolationism again before TNG?

Since much of TMP was at odds with TOS, I didn't --and don't-- have a problem with that.

If you're going to throw one of the movies out, it makes much more sense to say that TMP is a separate universe, IMO. It's the clear outlier in the film series.

You know, my headcanon used to include a war with the Romulans between TMP and TWOK to explain the increased militarism. I chose the Romulans over the Klingons just for variety's sake.

I agree that there must have been a massive event at some point during the unseen post-TMP mission - I had always hoped that one of the fan films would eventually address this event. I've always wondered if that event also may have been a failure of Kirk's - something that got him benched and the Enterprise retired, leading to some of the issues we see in TWOK.

 

[Ithekro]

If William Hartnell's Doctor Who stories can be in the same universe as Chris Eccleston's, then TOS/TMP and TWOK can exist in the same universe.

I'm still waiting for them to figure out how to bring in Peter Cushing's Doctor Who into the canon. Because you know they want to. It is a matter of rights, moneys, and permissions.

The Federation seemed to be getting along pretty well with the Romulans during Star Trek V as well, what with Nimbus III and the Romulan ambassador. I wonder what led to the Romulans heading towards isolationism again before TNG?

I figure the vacuum of power caused by the Klingon Empire being temporarily neutralized lead to some ambition on Romulas and somehow lead to the Tomed Incident around twenty years after Praxis exploded.