Star Trek II, III, IV movie Timeline question...

[DIrishB]

@Timo

Regarding Space Seed's placement, I'm utilizing the Memory Alpha date of 2267 for it.

It's generally presumed each season equals a year of the 5 year voyage. Season 1 lasts from 2266-2267 (though The Cage is set in 2254 and Where No Man Has Gone Before in 2265), Season 2 is 2267-2268, and Season 3 is 2268-2269. If you view TAS as canon, that has Season 1 in 2269 and Season 2 in 2270 (again per Memory Alpha).

The thing is, the Stardate system utilized in TOS and TAS was ambiguous to the point of not even being applicable, so can't be taken as law. If you were to organize TOS and TAS by Stardate The Magic of Megas-Tu would occur even before The Cage, which makes no sense as Pike is commanding in The Cage, and Kirk is commanding in Magic of Megas-Tu, and we know Kirk came after Pike. Granted you could ignore TAS completely but even then, the Stardate system is full of holes in TOS era. This does a good job of listing the Stardates and illustrating how random they were in TOS era:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/startrek/st-episodes-1.html

We have Stardates ranging from 1300-5900 during TOS (a period of 3 years), then jumping to 7412 for TMP, and 8100-8400 for II-V...

But, if only 2 and a half years pass for a jump from 5900-7400 (between end of TOS Season 3 and TMP--a period of 2 and a half years equating to about 1500 Stardate difference), then 7400-8100 (between TMP and STII) something doesn't add up (a period of 13-14 years with only 700 Stardate difference).

The point is, Roddenberry and TOS/TAS writers left Stardates intentionally ambiguous. They were never really meant to reflect a chronological order, and were apparently largely chosen at random. It wasn't until TNG era where they normalized the approach.

As for Enterprise-A, it's clear in the film that they return from the past with the humpback whales, face trial, are exonerated and assigned to the new ship. There doesn't seem to be any viable placement to insert a year or more time. Presumably the construction of that Constitution class ship was already well underway before the first Enterprise's destruction and it was simply renamed Enterprise-A to replace the lost original. Maybe I'm wrong but I just watched the film yesterday and the trial leads directly into them being assigned the new ship and going up to see it and take it out of spacedock for a test run.

 

[BillJ]

The thing is, the Stardate system utilized in TOS and TAS was ambiguous to the point of not even being applicable, so can't be taken as law. If you were to organize TOS and TAS by Stardate The Magic of Megas-Tu would occur even before The Cage, which makes no sense as Pike is commanding in The Cage, and Kirk is commanding in Magic of Megas-Tu, and we know Kirk came after Pike.

The stardate comes before "Where No Man...". There is no stardate given for "The Cage".

 

[DIrishB]

@Tosk

I know a shakedown isn't done in spacedock, but how long do you presume the shakedown cruise lasted? Presumably not long since the whole point is to utilize that test run to find problems/things that need adjusting. I doubt a year passed with them traveling the galaxy in a ship that needs that much work.

Watch STIV again. I just watched it last night. The trial scene leads directly into the revelation of the Enterprise-A.

 

[Timo]

The stardates are certainly an ambiguous resource. But there is nothing more definite about claiming that the three seasons we saw were three years of the five-year mission (much less about deciding they were the first three years). We are simply free to interpret it to our liking.

OTOH, there are things that make stardate order (if not exact stardate timekeeping) vastly preferable to other alternatives: Chekov coming aboard before "Space Seed" is but one of those.

There doesn't seem to be any viable placement to insert a year or more time.

Sure there is. Nothing at all is established about how long it takes for our heroes to get their ship, after all. There are zero references to the passage of time in that part of the movie, and zero references in other movies. (If anything, there is an incentive to insert at least one year in ST4, because in ST5 it has been two decades since "Balance of Terror" at the very least. Although again we can evoke the rounding up/down conceit.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

One wonders... Did the prop have actual text on it? In English or alienese? The label is intentionally very, very dark...

The other question would be, was Kirk giving the year or the stardate. McCoy's line about it taking time to ferment makes more sense if Kirk was giving a stardate.

 

[DIrishB]

@BillJ Ah, that's right, my mistake on The Cage having Stardate.

 

[BillJ]

Watch STIV again. I just watched it last night. The trial scene leads directly into the revelation of the Enterprise-A.

You're reading too much into how movies are made. It would take time for them to come up with an Enterprise-A.

 

[DIrishB]

@Timo

Why must STV be 20 years after Balance of Terror? I must have missed something.

 

[BillJ]

@Timo

Why must STV be 20 years after Balance of Terror? I must have missed something.

Based on the Nimbus III project being twenty years old.

 

[DIrishB]

@BillJ

Like I said, the presumption is the Enterprise-A was a Constitution class already under construction and renamed to the Enterprise-A to replace the recently lost Enterprise. Don't forget 3 months passed between the original Enterprise's loss and the unveiling of the Enterprise-A. Obviously it takes more than 3 not ha to build the ship but like I said, it was likely already under construction even before the destruction of the original Enterprise and simply renamed after the fact.

 

[Timo]

Romulans were one of the three parties who agreed to found Nimbus III that long ago. Nobody in the UFP spoke with the Romulans before "Balance of Terror" - at least not publicly enough to establish a joint colony!

This may actually have affected the Okudas' mysterious decision to push ST5 so far into the 2280s, although there's a distinct lack of elegance on how they do it.

The other question would be, was Kirk giving the year or the stardate. McCoy's line about it taking time to ferment makes more sense if Kirk was giving a stardate.

At least SD 2283 would be after the relative opening up of Romulan relations...

Edit: Ninja'ed. Damn you young whippersnappers are fast nowadays!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

...simply renamed...

A process that might have taken a decade if not for the public pressure!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DIrishB]

As they're flying up on the shuttlecraft they're discussing the kind of ship they'll get. McCoy mentions it'll be a freighter in his usual curmudgeon approach, Sulu mentions he'd like Excelsior, etc.

It seems to follow directly from the revelation of them getting a new ship. I doubt a year passed with a new Enterprise in spacedock and them not having any inkling of it. That stretches the bounds of believability.

 

[Tosk]

The trial scene leads directly into the revelation of the Enterprise-A.

With a cut.

Even if it is true, how long between the whale release and the trial?

 

[BillJ]

It seems to follow directly from the revelation of them getting a new ship. I doubt a year passed with a new Enterprise in spacedock and them not having any inkling of it. That stretches the bounds of believability.

Kirk systematically made Starfleet look like incompetent fools during the Genesis affair. I could see them being in no big hurry to put him back out on a starship.

 

[Timo]

I doubt a year passed with a new Enterprise in spacedock and them not having any inkling of it.

But there wouldn't be a new Enterprise there for several years. Just a series of starships of all sorts - one of which happens to get renamed Enterprise two days before she's given to Kirk.

Even if it is true, how long between the whale release and the trial?

The only real clue we have is the enduring enthusiasm Gillian Taylor has about being in the future...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DIrishB]

@BillJ

Huh... I didn't even link Nimbus III to that but you're right.

 

[BillJ]

But there wouldn't be a new Enterprise there for several years. Just a series of starships of all sorts - one of which happens to get renamed Enterprise two days before she's given to Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

When they construct or refit vessels, they don't do it at Spacedock. The other thing, do Kirk and company really have any reason to be at Spacedock in the intervening time? They could've all been given ground assignments while Starfleet prepared a new ship.

 

[DIrishB]

@BillJ

Actually, at his trial they DID seem in a rush to get him back on a starship as that's the place he could "do the most good".

 

[DIrishB]

@BillJ

Even if they'd had ground assignments, I find it hard to believe word wouldn't get to them of a new Enterprise being built at spacedock.

Plus, it flies in the face of the line said during the trial:

"As a consequence of your new rank (Captain), you be given command of a starship. We are forever in your debt."

I'm paraphrasing but that's gist of it. Doesn't seem like they'd keep them on ground assignments or hold a grudge considering he and the crew literally just saved the world.

I don't know, I very well may be completely wrong.