Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x08 - "The Sanctuary"

[jackoverfull]

But, if the protagonist is the main focus they are going to solve the problems. That's the nature of protagonists in most media I consume.

Up to a point…Some things turns out to be extremely contrived. This is why many works balances their protagonist with capable supporting characters that help to humanise them. That is, unless the writers intend for the protagonist to be perceived as above everyone else, see for example batman.

Well, the writers forgot about Carey for a long time so no surprise there.

Resurrecting him just to kill him off was really a low blow.

And Tilly as first officer has been beaten to death. She was a command track cadet being trained for that role. Assigning her as executive was well within Saru's purview as captain.

Let's say this is a real-world justification made after the fact. There are other command-division officers on Discovery and, even more importantly, it would make much more sense for Vance to assign someone from this era as second in command (and more in other positions onboard). In fact I originally thought that Adira was going to be the token 32th century starfleet officer, while at the moment her position in starfleet and on the ship is basically never addressed.

 

[fireproof78]

Up to a point…Some things turns out to be extremely contrived. This is why many works balances their protagonist with capable supporting characters that help to humanise them. That is, unless the writers intend for the protagonist to be perceived as above everyone else, see for example batman.

I guess I don't see that as the way protagonists have to be. I don't feel like anyone else is less capable because of Burnham. I do agree she is put in the forefront but I don't see her as better than anyone else.

She reminds me more of Harm from J*A*G than anything else.

Let's say this is a real-world justification made after the fact. There are other command-division officers on Discovery and, even more importantly, it would make much more sense for Vance to assign someone from this era as second in command (and more in other positions onboard). In fact I originally thought that Adira was going to be the token 32th century starfleet officer, while at the moment her position in starfleet and on the ship is basically never addressed.

It also makes sense for Vance to test this new crew to see what they are capable of. Saru's command decisions would be among those and how Tilly plays out may well inform Vance of how to proceed with this crew integrating in to the rest of Starfleet.

 

[jackoverfull]

I don't feel like anyone else is less capable because of Burnham. I do agree she is put in the forefront but I don't see her as better than anyone else.

In this very episode she figures out within minutes how to solve a grave issue that the whole scientific community of a planet hasn't solved in a century.

During this season she has already discovered more about the burn than anyone else in the whole galaxy in a century, then has solved the earth-titan conflict and for some reason she was the most qualified to help Adira (while there they saved the Trill society from civil war).

Then her actions almost cause a civil war on Vulcan (or whatever), but she manages to avoid it while also getting everything she wanted.

Then she notices the mysterious melody that seems to be everywhere while nobody else in the fedeation has (she has an investigation conducted on it so we know that for certain) in a century.

A pity she's not real, we could really have used her in 2020.

And this is only stuff from this season, in the past two it was even worse.

It also makes sense for Vance to test this new crew to see what they are capable of. Saru's command decisions would be among those and how Tilly plays out may well inform Vance of how to proceed with this crew integrating in to the rest of Starfleet.

If they go this way I'll be pleasantly surprised.

But they wont. I'm 99% sure of it.

 

[fireproof78]

In this very episode she figures out within minutes how to solve a grave issue that the whole scientific community of a planet hasn't solved in a century.

During this season she has already discovered more about the burn than anyone else in the whole galaxy in a century, then has solved the earth-titan conflict and for some reason she was the most qualified to help Adira (while there they saved the Trill society from civil war).

Then her actions almost cause a civil war on Vulcan (or whatever), but she manages to avoid it while also getting everything she wanted.

Then she notices the mysterious melody that seems to be everywhere while nobody else in the fedeation has (she has an investigation conducted on it so we know that for certain) in a century.

A pity she's not real, we could really have used her in 2020.

And this is only stuff from this season, in the past two it was even worse.

Cool. Sounds like protagonist stuff to me. I don't have a better answer beyond that because it doesn't strike me as an issue. I've stated elsewhere about out an outside perspective can bring about unique problem solving and I think Burnham is able to do so with success, while the rest of the galaxy is basically in crisis mode 24/7, fatigued and burned out (no pun intended).

The one that I will concede is the Trill thing. I think a doctor would be better suited but that's me.

If they go this way I'll be pleasantly surprised.

But they wont. I'm 99% sure of it.

Then they don't. Again, Saru's purview as captain. I know Starfleet isn't the US Navy but if a senior officer appoints someone as executive officer then that's what it is. The senior officer's discretion applies. I am truly curious to see how it plays out because there is a lot of potential for drama in this controversial decision.

 

[jackoverfull]

Cool. Sounds like protagonist stuff to me. I don't have a better answer beyond that because it doesn't strike me as an issue. I've stated elsewhere about out an outside perspective can bring about unique problem solving and I think Burnham is able to do so with success, while the rest of the galaxy is basically in crisis mode 24/7, fatigued and burned out (no pun intended).

Protagonist stuff if your protagonist is a superhero. Even Sisko didn't solve so many issues on his own and he turned out to literally be a god!

The one that I will concede is the Trill thing. I think a doctor would be better suited but that's me.

Yep.

Then they don't. Again, Saru's purview as captain. I know Starfleet isn't the US Navy but if a senior officer appoints someone as executive officer then that's what it is. The senior officer's discretion applies. I am truly curious to see how it plays out because there is a lot of potential for drama in this controversial decision.

There is. And I hope they explore the potential issues instead of avoiding them.

 

[fireproof78]

Protagonist stuff if your protagonist is a superhero. Even Sisko didn't solve so many issues on his own and he turned out to literally be a god!

I don't see anything godlike here.

There is. And I hope they explore the potential issues instead of avoiding them.

Same here.

 

[jackoverfull]

I don't see anything godlike here.

More like superhero-like.

 

[fireproof78]

More like superhero-like.

I feel like we are splitting hairs but I don't see superhero either. Just main character status. They are the person who steps in and are able to think a little bit differently than the rest.

 

[Lord Garth]

No. But there are plenty of reviews ranging from 2 to 5 on that page as well. Mure than ones ranging 6 to 9, actually.

The graph @PiotrB showed has more people rating it 6-9 than 2-5. Even though people who rated it 2-5 are more vocal and thus gave more reviews. It just proves that people who are dissatisfied are more likely to speak up. Most of the rest are the Silent Majority.

When I started my current job in September of last year, my boss said there were no complaints about me. Then he went on to say, "That's good because they only say something if they have complaints." Shortly after that I was given more responsibility and 15 months later I'm still there.

I do respect the rating of people who give it a 2 even though I strongly disagree with them. The reason for that is they had to think "Why am I giving this a 2 instead of a 1?" So I know some actual thought went into it and it wasn't just a blind "I'm rating this a 1 automatically!" Same on the other end, where you have people who think "Why am I giving this a 9 instead of a 10?"

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, I thought the reviews for the last episode were terrible, but feast your eyes on this:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11427530/reviews?ref_=tt_ov_rt

 

[Jadeb]

I do respect the rating of people who give it a 2 even though I strongly disagree with them. The reason for that is they had to think "Why am I giving this a 2 instead of a 1?" So I know some actual thought went into it and it wasn't just a blind "I'm rating this a 1 automatically!" Same on the other end, where you have people who think "Why am I giving this a 9 instead of a 10?"

I agree with this, but I do believe that many people giving 10s are being genuine about that. Every episode can be someone's favorite, and different people engage with/rate this stuff differently.

I would hope, though, that folks would give the same benefit of the doubt to the people who are more critical (at least the ones who aren't giving out 1s every episode).

 

[fireproof78]

Here's my thing with critical reviews-I want to hear both. I've been in the position of receiving both praise and criticism from customers and I always want both. Because, if it is just the critical then it just feeds the highly negative point of view already going on inside my own brain.

 

[Jadeb]

Here's my thing with critical reviews-I want to hear both. I've been in the position of receiving both praise and criticism from customers and I always want both. Because, if it is just the critical then it just feeds the highly negative point of view already going on inside my own brain.

Yeah, agree. In general, I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove us otherwise. In that case, better to put them on ignore than spend time and energy worrying about them. It does no good, feeds the trolls and clutters up the forum.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, agree. In general, I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove us otherwise. In that case, better to put them on ignore than spend time and energy worrying about them. It does no good, feeds the trolls and clutters up the forum.

Honestly, I would love to give people the benefit of the doubt, but often times their points just don't make sense to me and then seeking clarification results in, unfortunately, cluttering up the forum.

 

[jackoverfull]

The graph @PiotrB showed has more people rating it 6-9 than 2-5. Even though people who rated it 2-5 are more vocal and thus gave more reviews. It just proves that people who are dissatisfied are more likely to speak up. Most of the rest are the Silent Majority

You’ll never find me saying the opposite.

I agree with this, but I do believe that many people giving 10s are being genuine about that. Every episode can be someone's favorite, and different people engage with/rate this stuff differently

yes, but clearly not the many on IMDB writing “I’m giving 10 because there are too many negative reviews”.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

There is also the rating issue of what you compare an individual episode to.
All other Discovery episodes? That would result in a sliding scale, which we cannot display here.
All other Star Trek episodes? Probably the best rating scale, IMO and then it’s quite possible that people with contemporary entertainment tastes and preferences rate current episodes higher than your average Star Trek episode.
All of TV? This makes the scale very biased again, where nearly all episodes would receive maximum or near maximum rating consistently.

 

[Lord Garth]

You’ll never find me saying the opposite.

yes, but clearly not the many on IMDB writing “I’m giving 10 because there are too many negative reviews”.

Lately, when I go to a store, someone will ask, "Will you fill out the customer service survey?" Whenever I get one of those stupid things on my phone or through email, I just give them a 10. I don't want to see the people in question lose their job. But I admit to putting no thought into it.

So I don't think most of the 10s are malicious in intent. Some? Sure. But not most.

For DSC, I've been careful about the 10s this season. I've only given out one so far.

Confession Time: Last season I gave "Point of Light" a 10. But I didn't really think it was a 10. I only rated it that because everyone else was panning the episode so hard. I actually do like the episode a lot (because I like Georgiou and the Klingons and Section 31 and Amanda being assertive), but I don't think it's a 10.

 

[Jadeb]

There is also the rating issue of what you compare an individual episode to.
All other Discovery episodes? That would result in a sliding scale, which we cannot display here.
All other Star Trek episodes? Probably the best rating scale, IMO and then it’s quite possible that people with contemporary entertainment tastes and preferences rate current episodes higher than your average Star Trek episode.
All of TV? This makes the scale very biased again, where nearly all episodes would receive maximum or near maximum rating consistently.

I rate with 5 as “average” or “OK” or the equivalent of two stars, which I think the language of the polls usually suggests (10 as excellent, 1 as terrible). But clearly that’s not how most people rate, because then every Discovery ep would be way better than average, which devalues “average” as a concept.

My interpretation of how most people rate is that 6 and below are reserved for “pretty bad” to “terrible.”

 

[Tim Thomason]

Then there's the question of whether 10 should be the best score, or 1 should be the best score, as there's no rule that says you can't vote with a reverse method in mind.

Except that everyone suddenly gets mad at you in threads, sends you PMs to announce their objections, then places you on their ignore list. That's why I give every episode a 10 no matter what. I can't take that kind of abuse anymore.

 

[Lord Garth]

Except that everyone suddenly gets mad at you in threads, sends you PMs to announce their objections, then places you on their ignore list. That's why I give every episode a 10 no matter what. I can't take that kind of abuse anymore.

What the heck? Wow. That seems over the top. To anyone who sent Tim those PMs, shame on them.