Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x08 - "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I'm inclined to think a third alternative — that the writers specified nothing about the color of the entities, and it was left entirely up to the visual effects team. Wouldn't be the first time the left hand and the right hand on this show seemed to be operating out of different playbooks. ("D7," anyone?)

Anyone? No one? Bueller? Am I still the only one who gets the "D-7" thing? I wish I could afford to buy each and every member here a copy of The Making Of Star Trek...

The D-7 name was always an in-joke. The joke being that what fans/writers/characters have come to think of and call a D-7 is actually not one. Or is it?

Your comment here is by no means the only example, but the range of opinions and speculations on this thread alone about what exactly happened on the Klingon ship, and why and how, make it clear that the episode as depicted was painfully ambiguous. Not "suspenseful" or "intriguing"... just outright confusing.

I'm not sure whether to blame the writing or the editing or both. I haven't seen the "AfterTrek" others are referring to, but under the circumstances I'm puzzled that the producers would actually admit to having edited out L'Rell/Cornwell scenes that might have made things clearer.

That seems like a reasonable interpretation of what we saw. As I said, though, this thread is full of interpretations and speculations. Would've been nice if the episode itself had just made things a little more clear.

And what will you say if next week's (non) conclusion makes it all perfectly clear as to what happened and why they'd have wanted to keep us uncertain and confused and debating differing interpretations beforehand? I know what I will say if it doesn't: that there are still six episodes of this pre-planned season left after the break, and we should wait until the whole story plays out before judging...

When you've got a primary antagonist that has at various times been analogized to the Soviets, the Japanese, the Mongols, the Vikings, feudal Europe, contemporary biker gangs, and ISIS, it's bound to come across as a bit incoherent.

Or one might use the word varied.

I like Discovery, but I'd have to say its biggest weakness by far remains its handling of the Klingons.

Personally, despite having felt more than a little bit ambivalent about them at the outset, overall I have thus far found these Klingons more engaging than just about any I can recall from the last few shows and movies, bar Worf. Been re-watching TOS Klingon episodes and films, and in spite of all the obvious differences I can really "see" them gelling quite nicely together.

I envy your sense of confidence about this.

I would gladly impart it to you, if only I could. I am trying.

 

[Photoman15]

OH MY GOD WE GET TO SEE MARY WISEMAN TOPLESS.

When is/was this?

 

[F. King Daniel]

OH MY GOD WE GET TO SEE MARY WISEMAN TOPLESS.

Wut

 

[CardassianAssassin]

And what will you say if next week's (non) conclusion makes it all perfectly clear as to what happened and why they'd have wanted to keep us uncertain and confused and debating differing interpretations beforehand? I know what I will say if it doesn't: that there are still six episodes of this pre-planned season left after the break, and we should wait until the whole story plays out before judging...

Look, if it was just me who was a bit confused about a plot point, I might just leave at at me not paying enough attention.

But the fact that there are multiple people who were dumbfounded at the L’Rell b-story, and several posters who STILL aren’t sure whether she got off the ship or not, would indicate that it’s either a problem with the ship, or with the pacing and editing.

And that’s just for the starters, not even going into the crystal spire-sender A story that ALSO doesn’t make much sense.

 

[Ensign Mas]

This was a pretty good episode! I liked it and it was so much better than the filler last week (why the need for a spore drive? Just call for Stella's father and he'll be there immediately!)

Things I liked:
* This episode had a genuine, "updated" TOS-feel about it. The attempt to rescue the Gagarin was exciting.
* Perhaps I just haven't noticed before, but the stardates are back "to normal". No Abramsverse-style stardates.
* Burnham and Tyler. The actors have a chemistry and they work. It's too bad...
* Stamets... It seems as if he alternates between realities. Look forward to see how it plays out.
* A cliffhanger... Well, I can't imagine the Pahvan's attempt to bring the parties together will end up as good as it did for the Organians later.

Things I didn't like:
* The use of holograms for communicating. That hasn't been used in Star Trek and I can't see how its used ten years before TOS. Still, it wasn't quite as awful as in the pilot when the hologram of Sarek walked around and sat in furniture...
* Pahvo was a bit too much like Pandora
* Why no familiar Klingon ship designs?

I rate this episode 8/10.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Look, if it was just me who was a bit confused about a plot point, I might just leave at at me not paying enough attention.

But the fact that there are multiple people who were dumbfounded at the L’Rell b-story, and several posters who STILL aren’t sure whether she got off the ship or not, would indicate that it’s either a problem with the ship, or with the pacing and editing.

And that’s just for the starters, not even going into the crystal spire-sender A story that ALSO doesn’t make much sense.

I've said myself that I found all the spy intrigue confusing and impenetrable. I'm just not convinced as yet that this wasn't wholly intentional. I did not find the planetside story so.

I was thinking the same. Both he and Burnham just wouldn't seem to pass the psych testing that Starfleet is supposed to have for those in the fleet, much less Officers and more so those who are one step away from the center seat.

That he was not actually under influence and did that of his own will should be a court-martial offense. He endangered the lives of a landing party.

Here again, this fits a lot better with TOS than one would ever realize without watching it. (Not an accusation directed at you, especially if unwarranted, but my own observation based on recently re-watching much of it myself in context of DSC.) People are really not all that well-adjusted a lot of the time. Heck, pretty much every other captain besides Kirk that we met had some pretty glaring psychological issues. Even the ones who weren't sadistic egomaniacal psychopaths were borderline neurotics. (Note: colloquial non-professional usage of these terms. I am not a qualified mental health professional.) Even Kirk himself had a little of this going on at times. No wonder Janice Lester felt left out and discriminated against when they wouldn't take her!

The one guy who actually failed his psych test (if that's in fact what it was) was Merik, and he actually didn't seem as bad as, say, Ron Tracy or Garth of Izar.

Perhaps they're the reason why the Burnham-Saru Psychiatric Entrance Exam was introduced in the first place.

That explains it. Like Lorca, these men had already made it into the center seat by the time they started seriously trying to crack down and keep those black women and aliens out of it! (Yes, yes...I kid.)

 

[Tim Thomason]

When is/was this?

I think this was a cruel joke. But it did get me to stop reading the thread and watch the episode, and next week preview, intently.

 

[eschaton]

* The battle sequences continue to be pretty bad IMO, they look overly computerised and vastly inferior to DS9/VOY/ENT despite the so called high budget and 2017 technology they have to work with. Everything seems rushed, the camera work is shakey and the Klingon ships look so ill defined in their look. It's basically pew pew pew with no tactics seemingly in play and pretty boring overall.

I realized part of the issue with the ship-to-ship combat. It's just "zoomed in" way too far. They seemingly try to ensure the ships take up as much of the screen as possible. This means we get no real sense of movement (as the ships would quickly move out of the shot entirely) but just see one giant-ass ship superimposed on another for a few seconds. If they just had some shots where the ships started out tiny and then swooped in closer to the target, it would give the scenes much more dynamism.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I realized part of the issue with the ship-to-ship combat. It's just "zoomed in" way too far. They seemingly try to ensure the ships take up as much of the screen as possible. This means we get no real sense of movement (as the ships would quickly move out of the shot entirely) but just see one giant-ass ship superimposed on another for a few seconds. If they just had some shots where the ships started out tiny and then swooped in closer to the target, it would give the scenes much more dynamism.

This is a trend I think one can see in a lot of effect driven shows and film.

This is a way to make action seem more actiony, which works but I think done too much, like in disco, it really takes away from the true feel of the moment.

You're right, some changes would give the scenes more dynamism.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Here again, this fits a lot better with TOS than one would ever realize without watching it. (Not an accusation directed at you, especially if unwarranted, but my own observation based on recently re-watching much of it myself in context of DSC.) People are really not all that well-adjusted a lot of the time. Heck, pretty much every other captain besides Kirk that we met had some pretty glaring psychological issues. Even the ones who weren't sadistic egomaniacal psychopaths were borderline neurotics. (Note: colloquial non-professional usage of these terms. I am not a qualified mental health professional.) Even Kirk himself had a little of this going on at times. No wonder Janice Lester felt left out and discriminated against when they wouldn't take her!

The one guy who actually failed his psych test (if that's in fact what it was) was Merik, and he actually didn't seem as bad as, say, Ron Tracy or Garth of Izar.

I understand what you're saying, but in my view of TOS, those people had some issues that made them go over the edge: Decker, Tracy, Garth, etc. There were circumstances that just threw a mental switch in them (I even think Kirk mentions about at least Decker and Tracy that they seemed to be amazing commanders).

I don't see those kinds of issues happen with Burnham and Saru. Burnham got arrogant and forced her issue (and her personality shows it from the beginning) and Saru was just selfish and a fraidy cat.

 

[oberth]

I understand what you're saying, but in my view of TOS, those people had some issues that made them go over the edge: Decker, Tracy, Garth, etc. There were circumstances that just threw a mental switch in them (I even think Kirk mentions about at least Decker and Tracy that they seemed to be amazing commanders).

I don't see those kinds of issues happen with Burnham and Saru. Burnham got arrogant and forced her issue (and her personality shows it from the beginning) and Saru was just selfish and a fraidy cat.

cats are predators

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I understand what you're saying, but in my view of TOS, those people had some issues that made them go over the edge: Decker, Tracy, Garth, etc. There were circumstances that just threw a mental switch in them (I even think Kirk mentions about at least Decker and Tracy that they seemed to be amazing commanders).

I don't see those kinds of issues happen with Burnham and Saru. Burnham got arrogant and forced her issue (and her personality shows it from the beginning) and Saru was just selfish and a fraidy cat.

To me it seemed fairly well indicated that Michael's traumatic childhood experience with the Klingons was behind her actions in "The Vulcan Hello" and isn't "throwing a mental switch" exactly what the Pahvans did to/for Saru in turning off the biologically-hard-wired fear that had formed the whole basis of his psychology since birth?

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I understand what you're saying, but in my view of TOS, those people had some issues that made them go over the edge: Decker, Tracy, Garth, etc. There were circumstances that just threw a mental switch in them (I even think Kirk mentions about at least Decker and Tracy that they seemed to be amazing commanders).

I don't see those kinds of issues happen with Burnham and Saru. Burnham got arrogant and forced her issue (and her personality shows it from the beginning) and Saru was just selfish and a fraidy cat.

People like Burnham, IMO need a strong captain, Iike her former one. She let fear get the best of her. I'd like to see Burnham under a captain with a personality kinda like Riker's or even Kirk's. Impulsive, but not crazed, well not "mostly" crazed .

 

[Noname Given]

I do know that Star Trek didn't invent it. Which is why the "logic" that it is an old Vulcan saying is silly.

Yeah, like the other 'old Vulcan proverb' Spock said to Kirk in STVI:TUC - "Only Nixon could go to China."

[ETA: I replied before reading the rest of the thread to this point - seems this was already mentioned previously. ]

 

[daedalus5]

9/10 for me.

Likes:
Plannet side adventure
The crystal thing could become the Crystalline Entity
The homage ? to the Organians
The house of Kor.
The Admiral almost escaping.
Captain Tilly and the hint that Stamments could be seeing the futur.
The USS Gagarin.... and the resulting ship battle.
Running Saru.
Phasering Saru.

Dislikes:
Too short an episode.
The confusing Klingon conflicts; the lead male actor looks like the lady Klingon’s love interest.,.. the fact that I have not yet remembered the Klingon characters names....

Key question:
What on Earth was up with the Klingon corpses? Why was she so aghast? Are they being eaten? Or is it that they have not put them in coffins yet?

 

[STR]

Here's the thing, though: we don't actually know whether the Klingons are "a feudal society," or anything else about their politics, or (if they are one) to what extent it's plausibly analogous to such societies on earth.

Yes we do. Not only are there great houses, but there's nobility (literal lords) commoners (remember Martok?), royalty (Kor) descended from past emperors. There's ritualized pledges of fealty, as we saw this week in DSC. L'Rell spoke of having to choose her own familial allegence previously. T'Kuvma spoke of his ship as a birthright. All signs of a feudal state.

Now, that doesn't mean they're exact copies of an Earth society. It doesn't have to. You don't need knights or religious orders. Theres just two core conceits to feudalism: 1) the central importance of family and blood alliances 2) that feudalism is one step above total anarchy. Modern concepts such as "the state" don't even exist. The monarch is the state. Which is why Gowron had a free hand to declare whoever a traitor, because there is no legal distinction between betraying the empire and betraying Gowron personally.

By the same token, while there are laws and customs, there is no rule of law. Law is a subset of politics. Duras is powerful and connected, so he gets away with literal murder. The Chancellor adjudicates disputes. Show trials (as shown in TUC) are the only kind of trial and exist solely for public benefit. Worf gets his name back by picking the right side in a civil war. There is zero indication of any independent judiciary.

All of these things strongly indicate a fuedal Klingon society. In fact, it's a stretch to find anything that contradicts the notion.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Yeah, that episode sucked.

I enjoyed the previous episode. But nothing about this episode is compelling. Generic energy creature, focus on the uninteresting prey species aspect of Seru. And I don't mind at all the Klingons are different, but I do mind they are boring and characterized like cave men who happened to find their way into warships. Had enough of those scenes where they talk exclusively in slow discrete grunts like a Syfy movie monster.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

To me it seemed fairly well indicated that Michael's traumatic childhood experience with the Klingons was behind her actions in "The Vulcan Hello" and isn't "throwing a mental switch" exactly what the Pahvans did to/for Saru in turning off the biologically-hard-wired fear that had formed the whole basis of his psychology since birth?

I understand what you're saying. I'm just seeing it a different way, in that neither Saru nor Burnham should be that high up in the chain of command given their traumas and psychological makeup.

 

[Manuuk7]

cats are predators

He daw the puddycat.

 

[STR]

And we've seen plenty of examples of other, non-warrior parts of Klingon society. So we do know that they have, for example, various types of scientists, medical doctors, farmers, chefs, and even lawyers. I think the focus just tends to fall on the Klingon military, because they have the ships. And since the KDF appears to be a true military outfit, rather than whatever Starfleet decides it is from week to week, it makes sense that there would only by soldiers on those ships.

The structure of the KDF has been a point of interest for me, personally. Specifically, who owns the ships and the loyalty of the officers. They could be 1) a levy drawn from the various subordinate Klingon Lordships 2) a personal retinue of the monarch himself and loyal to the "crown" of chancellor. An imperial guard. 3) A Romanesque legion loyal to specific commanders and effectively free agents for hire/sale during civil wars.

The various series/movies have hinted towards any/all of the above at one time or another. Discovery seemingly predates the KDF. I doubt we'll get far enough into their society to have this kind of question resolved.

The crystal thing could become the Crystalline Entity

By the gods old, new, Klingon and Andorian, I hope not.