Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x07 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad"

[cultcross]

I disagree. We’ve seen the Genesis devise pay off in a sequel

Which did nothing to lessen its power as a superweapon. This is exactly what we're referring to - it's ok in one Trek production but not in another. Trek is filled with one episode wonders that should have changed existence forever but didn't. Sometimes you gotta just get over it and realise that the fantasy elements serve the story, not the other way around.

 

[Longinus]

Which did nothing to lessen its power as a superweapon. This is exactly what we're referring to - it's ok in one Trek production but not in another. Trek is filled with one episode wonders that should have changed existence forever but didn't. Sometimes you gotta just get over it.

I'm not sure that the superweapon aspect of it is such a huge deal. Sure, it is insanely powerful and it is understandable that the Klingons would be worried, but on the other hand it was pretty much already stated in TOS that a single Constitution class ship can a bomb a planet to death so it's not really setting breakingly more powerful. (The star killer torpedo they had in DS9 was way more problematic.)

Also, this is another reason why comparisons to old stuff are bad; we're no longer talking about Discovery.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Which did nothing to lessen its power as a superweapon. This is exactly what we're referring to - it's ok in one Trek production but not in another. Trek is filled with one episode wonders that should have changed existence forever but didn't. Sometimes you gotta just get over it and realise that the fantasy elements serve the story, not the other way around.

It’s power magnitude doesn’t have anything to do with it. It can be as powerful as they want as long as they follow and build on the premise. What’s important is following up on a story element that’s introduced. Even if ultimately it’s brushed off with a quick “I guess that didn’t work after all” line in the script. This isn’t ‘50s Superman comic books where they introduced a new superpower with each new issue and was forgotten in the next. It isn’t even ‘60s or ‘80s television where the reset button is pushed in the end of the episode and you can watch them in any order. This was supposed to be modern serialized TV storytelling like Game Of Thrones or Westworld. This was anything but. Exactly because story comes first and not the MacGuffins is the reason you should have the stories progress and come to a natural or surprising conclusion.

 

[cultcross]

Yeah, Game of Thrones never forgets a plotline or changes the rules to suit the story that week

 

[Gonzo]

The frustration comes about because there is the impression that the same critics are simultaneously complaining the show is too different from old Trek, but then complain about elements of the show which are like old Trek. In all honesty, it's probably different critics on each wing, but it does make you feel like the show can't win. It's either too much like old Trek, or not enough like it. It's so different that it's declared not to be Trek, while simultaneously decried as a rehash of the Berman era.

Its a bit like the kid in the marmite advert finding out that his family are actually genetic likers of the stuff.

He then runs off screaming "I Hate It, I Hate It".

His mother then comments that "He has never even tried it".

I would replace the mother comment in this case with "He hasn't really given it a chance".

In truth they don't want to like it, therefore they never will.

 

[Uhura's Song]

I am firmly in these camps:

No issue with criticising plot holes. Or whatever.

Issue when criticism is couched in "this is not Trek" language when the evidence is otherwise.

 

[Vger23]

The AntiDiscovery Brigade:

"Too different. It is not Trek."

"They should not follow old Trek tropes!"

This is exactly what I've been sensing too. Damned if you do....damned if you don't.

I personally have enjoyed its unpredictability on this front. Sometimes, it's as different as TWOK was back in the day. Just a wildly different tone and context from anything that came before. But then, also like TWOK...it finds itself in very familiar and comforting territory at times.

From my perspective, that's what makes it so interesting. It's also why TWOK has always been my favorite...enough "different and new" and enough "comforting and old" all in one package.

Also, and again it's speculation... but I think well-grounded speculation...I really do believe the series (particularly this season) is about the JOURNEY toward the more familiar. Since I'm one who finds journeys more interesting than just being dumped at the destination from the get-go...that works for me. Others...maybe not so much.

 

[Noname Given]

That's where the two Mudd's really don't match up. One is comically inept, the other one not so much.

One's been through Federation psychological treatment (TOS Mudd - per TOS - "Mudd's Women"); and one hasn't yet (ST: D Mudd - He's just going to have a Phaser Rifle wedding per Stella's father).

 

[Vger23]

Burnham: "No Federation-aligned species has been able to stabilize them. A fourth-dimensional race must have perfected the technology and now Mudd has it."

Not Tyler: "Should we ask Mudd about how he acquired the technology or at least how they’re stabilized"?
Not Burnham: "What? And have him miss his big date with Stella? Besides, what are we, a SCIENCE ship?"



The ProDiscovery Battalion:

“So what if it has huge plot holes and giant leaps of logic?"

"So did Star Trek TV from 50 and 30 years ago!"

But the question is (and to me has always been)...if you can excuse those things from previous iterations of the franchise, then why can't you do it now? And the answer is: "Because I just don't like DSC and this helps rationalize my opinion."

One approach is a matter of personal taste ("the occasional silly gap in logic does not diminish my ability to enjoy the ride I'm on")
vs.
The other is a matter of inconsistency at best and hypocrisy at worst ("I love Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, even though most of the science, continuity, and logic make no sense....but I hate Star Trek Discovery because most of the science, continuity , and logic make no sense")

 

[Ithekro]

Eh. My point is that it's subjective, and that there is precedence for criminals like Mudd to just be left to their own devices rather than brought in for their serious crimes. You don't have to like it, but DSC is just following one more classic Trek tradition.


I'm fairly certain one of us has a time crystal.

That would have been the perfect place for a Cumberbatch (Nope) Montalban (Yep) face-off.

 

[Amaris]

That would have been the perfect place for a Cumberbatch (Nope) Montalban (Yep) face-off.

Yeah, but @cultcross put on his jack boots.

 

[indranee]

Writing blind (haven't read through the thread).

My initial take on the episode (fun and exciting) has been boiled down (after a rewatch) to some amount of befuddlement. How does Michael remember? She's not out of the time loop, right? She's just hearing about it from Stamets? How does she end up remembering? Also, once Mudd knows about Stamets being the key to the spore drive, why doesn't he just hone in on him and kidnap him? I guess his greed (and Michael put her finger on that side of his character, obviously) did him in.... anyone care to explain?

Other than those points, overall, this season does feel much too episodic and kind of rushed, even. It feels as if TPTB didn't expect even a 2nd season and wanted to get everything showed and done in the first. There is very little to wait for, very little anticipatory moments the way there was on DS9 (one of the reason I loved it so).

Anyway, a few cool points about this one:

-what is that clicking sound Saru makes? Is there an explanation for it that I missed?
-alert! Redshirt in white in engineering LOL
-first Al Green track in Trek? Nice.

Rating: Even with all the questions, I'm giving this one an 8 because of the enjoyment factor.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's where the two Mudd's really don't match up. One is comically inept, the other one not so much.

Mudd in Mudd's Women was not inept, comical or otherwise.

 

[Vger23]

Writing blind (haven't read through the thread).

My initial take on the episode (fun and exciting) has been boiled down (after a rewatch) to some amount of befuddlement. How does Michael remember? She's not out of the time loop, right? She's just hearing about it from Stamets? How does she end up remembering? Also, once Mudd knows about Stamets being the key to the spore drive, why doesn't he just hone in on him and kidnap him? I guess his greed (and Michael put her finger on that side of his character, obviously) did him in.... anyone care to explain?

Other than those points, overall, this season does feel much too episodic and kind of rushed, even. It feels as if TPTB didn't expect even a 2nd season and wanted to get everything showed and done in the first. There is very little to wait for, very little anticipatory moments the way there was on DS9 (one of the reason I loved it so).

Anyway, a few cool points about this one:

-what is that clicking sound Saru makes? Is there an explanation for it that I missed?
-alert! Redshirt in white in engineering LOL
-first Al Green track in Trek? Nice.

Rating: Even with all the questions, I'm giving this one an 8 because of the enjoyment factor.

The "enjoyment factor" is all I ever go off of!

it's a simple equation- did I enjoy it as I watched it...or not?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Prime Mudd is an inept colorful scoundrel.
Disco Mudd is a mass murdering psychopath.

Prime Mudd is an adept scoundrel, with some comic overtones, who later becomes an inept comic scoundrel.

 

[Longinus]

But the question is (and to me has always been)...if you can excuse those things from previous iterations of the franchise, then why can't you do it now? And the answer is: "Because I just don't like DSC and this helps rationalize my opinion."

Is this not the Discovery section of the forum? We're not talking about those others shows and movies now.

One approach is a matter of personal taste

("the occasional silly gap in logic does not diminish my ability to enjoy the ride I'm on")
vs.
The other is a matter of inconsistency at best and hypocrisy at worst ("I love Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, even though most of the science, continuity, and logic make no sense....but I hate Star Trek Discovery because most of the science, continuity , and logic make no sense")

Or perhaps people have voiced their displeasure of those aspects of other shows and films when it was the time to discuss them, but this is not about those shows. Can't I just express my dislike stupid science in Discovery without having to every time go through every Voyager episode which had stupid science too (that was probably most of them)?

 

[Vger23]

Is this not the Discovery section of the forum? We're not talking about those others shows and movies now.

If we can spend time arguing about the music in the party scene and the magic vs. science of time crystals, I can call out some hypocrisy based on my understanding of how others choose to selectively ignore problems with one element of the franchise while holding another harshly accountable for the same issues.

So put me on "ignore," ace...but my point ain't going anywhere.

 

[Vger23]

Can't I just express my dislike stupid science in Discovery without having to every time go through every Voyager episode which had stupid science too (that was probably most of them)?

No, we can't. Because as you adeptly pointed out, this is a Discovery forum. And since every week between 75 and 85% of voters have given the episodes a 7 or above for a rating, you're going to run into resistance when you attempt to smear cold monkey feces all over the show just in the name of venting your frustration.

 

[Longinus]

No, we can't. Because as you adeptly pointed out, this is a Discovery forum. And since every week between 75 and 85% of voters have given the episodes a 7 or above for a rating, you're going to run into resistance when you attempt to smear cold monkey feces all over the show just in the name of venting your frustration.

Sure. Just try to formulate your counterpoint without using 'but that other show did it too!' (Cold space monkey feces are probably the power source of Federation's next super engine.)

Also, I voted 7 for this episode, so I am not even close at hating it (I hated couple of the other episodes though), it still doesn't mean I won't point out the bits I think could've been done better.

 

[Ithekro]

Cold space monkey feces powers Andorian impulse drives. It is another reason they took to the pink skins...they hoped they would get a better source from the Earth via trade deals.