Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x07 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad"

[Grendelsbayne]

I posted about this the other day, but I was on my phone, so I couldn't talk about it in detail: Does anyone get the idea that this episode was one of the two added to the show after the intial order of 13 episodes?

My reasoning is basically as follows. They would not add two episodes on to the end of the season, because that would result in a very anticlimactic ending. So they would have to find somewhere to sandwich two episodes in the middle of the already plotted arc. This episode does call back to earlier continuity, but judging by the trailer for next week, it's sort of awkwardly jammed in the middle of the "Cornwell mini-arc." It also wrapped up things very well, to the point of almost being a self-contained episode. The only possible exception is the burgeoning relationship between Burnham and Ash Tyler, but since they don't actually remember their conversation in the iteration where they kissed, and Burnham made it clear she wanted to "go slow" they could go right back to acting professional for several episodes.

I guess we'll see in the longer run if anything which took place in this episode is referenced anywhere else. If it happens in a single episode, it could always be chalked up to that episode being a mid-arc insertion as well. But if there are multiple references we could conclude that this may indeed have been a story inserted into the arc late in production.

Aside from what was already mentioned in regards to there being way too much character development in this episode for it to have been an afterthought, I also seriously doubt the writers decided to just throw a super-powerful time doohickey into the mix and then completely forget about it. We will probably see the time crystal again in the finale (or leading up to it), so this episode almost certainly was not an afterthought, imo.

I Enjoyed it a lot but wondered why Stamets just didn't tell Lorca not to beam the whale on board (yeah beside the fact that the episode would have ended very soon).

He probably did at some point, but that doesn't actually solve anything at all. Even if Stamets ran straight to engineering and activated black alert with no authorization and put the Discovery on the other side of the galaxy before the Gormagander was ever discovered, Mudd's time loop would STILL be in effect and everything would just reset in 30 minutes.

And I would think that Betazoid society doesn't practice invasive telepathy.

Meaning, they don't go around scanning people without warning. That would be obnoxious and rude. And particularly demeaning to offworlders like Harry. So if he's at least disciplined enough to put a lid on his emotions, I think he could have pulled off a bank robbery or two.

Also, there's no reason whatsoever why the 'Bank of Betazed' he robbed necessarily even needs to be on Betazed. He could just as easily have robbed the Rigelian branch or the Vulcan branch of the Bank of Betazed. Notice that the episode goes into extensive detail on all the amazing, unbeatable security protocols that Harry beat and EVERY SINGLE ONE is technological, with no mention of telepathic guards at all.

I'm starting to think that there may be something that happens to Harry somewhere down the line that shatters his ego and his worldview. Turns him from the cold, calculating murderer he is in DSC, into the charming rogue of TOS.

Except he was never just a charming rogue in TOS - he was willing to massively endanger the lives of the entire enterprise crew as a bargaining chip in his first appearance. In his second appearance he was assisting in a literal galaxy wide coup designed to eliminate freedom in general.

He is also not a cold, calculating murderer on this show. So far we've only seen him pass off beatings in a Klingon prison (which TOS Mudd absolutely would do, because he would never, ever choose to take a beating himself) and kill people he knew weren't going to stay dead anyway. As someone else already mentioned, it is very telling that despite his hatred of Lorca and how much he enjoyed killing him over and over again, in BOTH scenarios in which he thought he had already won, he left Lorca alive after all. Other than theft/piracy (which has always been Mudd's stock in trade), the only thing you can really point to as cold and calculating in this episode is that he didn't seem to mind that Tyler was dead during his first 'victory' and was ready to go ahead and end the loop anyway. But even there, he didn't actually kill Tyler with the intention of him staying dead, because he didn't realize he'd won until after the fact.

I can't help but wonder if Mudd was so effortlessly able to use his tech to get the upper hand against an elite starfleet crew on a war footing, killing them all again and again so casually, wouldn't he have been better off using it to kill his debtors?

Who says he wasn't planning to? He hated Lorca and could get a massive amount of money (which he loves) from selling Discovery. Two birds, one stone. Three birds, actually, since selling to the klingons is payback for starfleet 'starting' the war. Plenty of time later to deal with those other birds from his past. ETA: Not that he necessarily even need kill his debtors to deal with them.

 

[BillJ]

How fast of a ship were Stella and her Dad in that they were able to pack up and get to the Discovery in roughly twenty minutes? It also took Burnham and company no time at all to find them.

But, since the episode was actually enjoyable, I'll just file it in "Trek WTF".

 

[GeekUSACarl]

There may be a thing called "Time Crystals." But do they allow one to repeat a specific period of time in a specific spot in the universe an infinite number of times? Yeah. I didn't think so.

Also, way to miss the point.

this may be a good time to introduce you to something called science "fiction". perhaps you've heard of it.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

How fast of a ship were Stella and her Dad in that they were able to pack up and get to the Discovery in roughly twenty minutes? It also took Burnham and company no time at all to find them.

But, since the episode was actually enjoyable, I'll just file it in "Trek WTF".

Well, their arrival is really only explainable by assuming they were already nearby, which is obviously a major coincidence. Not impossible, though.

For the other part, I assumed that parts of this plan must've already been figured out before the final loop. Once Stamets convinced Burnham, they had a (totally unknown) number of loops during which they could search for weaknesses and useful information. The simple truth is they needed every last second of the final loop to convince Burnham, then Tyler, then Lorca and make the actual modifications to the captain's chair before Mudd appeared. They must've found the 'non-essential systems' weakness during the earlier loops, as well as tracked down the location of Stella and figured out that they could tamper with the captain's chair, as well. In fact, it may be possible that Stamets outburst (the result of the extreme psychological trauma of witnessing so much death over and over again) nearly derailed an otherwise almost complete plan, and that only Burnham's quick thinking gave them one last shot to get it right.

Another thought I just had in relation to Mudd's 'debtors' - is it possible that entire story about fleeing debtors across the Klingon border was bs, and he was actually fleeing Stella?

 

[Seven of Five]

That was a lot of fun. Probably the most fun I've had since Star Trek came back. It was an intriguing character study, whilst also an being a high-concept idea. I was glad that the episode also seemed to confirm that we'll have a mix of standalone and arc based stories.

Mudd was very entertaining again. I loved his glib expressions throughout, as well as him just casually eating a burger whilst he transported Lorca out into space and kill him. Again.

 

[jotap]

The audience rates will tell if it was entertaining

 

[CorporalClegg]

this may be a good time to introduce you to something called science "fiction". perhaps you've heard of it.

Yes. science fiction - where they take scientific concepts and present them in speculative ways. You know, magic.

But still missing the point.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Yes. science fiction - where they take scientific concepts and present them in speculative ways. You know, magic.

But still missing the point.

I don't think I'm missing the point, I just disagree with you

Still there is a difference between science fiction and "magic"

we may as well just call the vast majority of sci-fi "magic" under that definition

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He is also not a cold, calculating murderer on this show.

Time loop or no, murder is still murder. Harry had intent to kill.

Even if his victims didn't stay dead, which there was no way for him to know 100% (what happens if the loop stops or something goes wrong?).

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Time loop or no, murder is still murder. Harry had intent to kill.

Even if his victims didn't stay dead, which there was no way for him to know 100% (what happens if the loop stops or something goes wrong?).

My limited brain sees it not that they didn't stay dead,

but when the loop reset, the simply never died.

 

[Kor]

Yeah, whatever Mudd was using had nothing to do with the actual concept of time crystals, whose most likeley application will be in quantum computing, not creating wacky time loops.

Kor

 

[Mr Awe]

There may be a thing called "Time Crystals." But do they allow one to repeat a specific period of time in a specific spot in the universe an infinite number of times? Yeah. I didn't think so.

Also, way to miss the point.

But, the magic crystals that make the ship go FTL are just fine?

 

[Timo]

Regarding the timely arrival of Stella and her dad, we should remember that they had a search warrant out for Mr. Mudd, with a massive reward. When the heroes browsed their database for Stella, they'd immediately see the big red button saying "Click for massive reward!" and absolutely would click it.

Surely Stella would be prepared to immediately act on the click, too. So it becomes a question of where. Not "Where is Stella?", though, but "Where is the Discovery?". Perhaps Lorca did take his bosses' advice and move to a position safely behind the lines, close to Earth. It's not as if he'd have reasons not to.

Time loop or no, murder is still murder. Harry had intent to kill.

Intent to kill is not punishable in general, unless it can somehow be demonstrated that there was effort made to turn that intent into action. Utterly ineffective effort counts as a defense; lack of evidence for effort means dismissing of charges.

"Preparing for a crime" is a major point of disagreement in law, and every entry thereof is hotly contested, usually only accepted if pertaining to particularly violent crime. "Planning for a crime" is more controversial still, and "Thinking of a crime" is the opposite of punishable - an intent to punish for that is a crime in itself.

I guess the one thing we need to worry about is Mudd's rap sheet in "Mudd's Women". This event is not mentioned there, so the parties involved did take care not to mention it.

Another angle: "Dagger of the Mind" style brainwashing seems effective in preventing repeat offenses. Are any of Mudd's later antics repeats of what happened here? He did lose his Master's License at some point; operating a ship without the legal niceties is a repeat offense of sorts.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalClegg]

I don't think I'm missing the point, I just disagree with you

Still there is a difference between science fiction and "magic"

we may as well just call the vast majority of sci-fi "magic" under that definition

Dude, you're quibbling over the one word I put in brackets. How is that not missing the point?

And, yes, most of science fiction is magic -- especially Star Trek stuff.

But unlike giving plasma and tachyons and deuterium etc. the abilities to do things they're not normally accustomed to doing when it makes for a good DXM, they gave Mudd a near-omnipotent power. I mean he literally altered the fabric of the universe. And definitely is way, way more powerful than mushroom power, especially as a potential weapon. (Meaning, given the choice, any half-wit Klingon would choose it over the spore drive.)

So that means either he didn't know what he had (An neither did the writers, apprently.) or he really did just want to kill Lorca over and over again.

But, the magic crystals that make the ship go FTL are just fine?

When did I say they weren't? Also. false equivalency.

Time loop or no, murder is still murder. Harry had intent to kill.

Even if his victims didn't stay dead, which there was no way for him to know 100% (what happens if the loop stops or something goes wrong?).

Yup. Exactly.

And I'd also like to point out that this was all done during his greater plan to commit espionage - and borderline treason.

But, you know, send him how with the wife because that's "funny."

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

I don't think I'm missing the point, I just disagree with you

Still there is a difference between science fiction and "magic"

we may as well just call the vast majority of sci-fi "magic" under that definition

But, the magic crystals that make the ship go FTL are just fine?

You’ve missed his point completely. It wasn’t about science fiction technology vs magic at all. And it wasn’t about magic dilithium crystals vs magic time crystals either.

The point was that there’s this incredible new technology that only Mudd has, the time crystals, technology that allows you to repeat a specific period of time in a specific spot in the universe an infinite number of times, technology as groundbreaking as the spore drive, technology more groundbreaking than the invisibility cloak, technology that’s invaluable to the war effort for both sides, and nobody cares? WTF? Screw the mushroom drive, Mudd should have sold this to the Klingons!

 

[XCV330]

You’ve missed his point completely. It wasn’t about science fiction technology vs magic at all. And it wasn’t about magic dilithium crystals vs magic time crystals either.

The point was that there’s this incredible new technology that only Mudd has, the time crystals, technology that allows you to repeat a specific period of time in a specific spot in the universe an infinite number of times, technology as groundbreaking as the spore drive, technology more groundbreaking than the invisibility cloak, technology that’s invaluable to the war effort for both sides, and nobody cares? WTF? Screw the mushroom drive, Mudd should have sold this to the Klingons!

Mudd has shown self-serving thinking before. He could have had an army of robots ready to conquer the galaxy for him but he chose to sit around making hundreds sex-droids and one naggin-stella until they tired of him and needed replacements. Mudd might be the most brilliant dumb person in Trek.

 

[Mr Awe]

When did I say they weren't? Also. false equivalency.

If you think that's false equivalency, you don't know what it means.

Anyway, point being, some things you just have to accept so you can get into the meat of the story. Transporters aren't realistic either. They have the magic Heisenberg compensators. Etc. This is science fiction. Not everything is going to be realistic.

If the time crystals were going to become an ongoing story element, I'd complain because they're too powerful. But, I don't think that is going to happen. They were introduced just to allow this story to happen.

 

[XCV330]

They get locked in the Star Fleet Vault of Technology We Can't Bring Back Because We Don't Know How to Write It In.

with the Genesis Device
Spore Drive
Transwarp Drive
whatever Barkley did to Enterprise D that one time.
etc

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Dude, you're quibbling over the one word I put in brackets. How is that not missing the point?

And, yes, most of science fiction is magic -- especially Star Trek stuff.

But unlike giving plasma and tachyons and deuterium etc. the abilities to do things they're not normally accustomed to doing when it makes for a good DXM, they gave Mudd a near-omnipotent power. I mean he literally altered the fabric of the universe. And definitely is way, way more powerful than mushroom power, especially as a potential weapon. (Meaning, given the choice, any half-wit Klingon would choose it over the spore drive.)

So that means either he didn't know what he had (An neither did the writers, apprently.) or he really did just want to kill Lorca over and over again.

When did I say they weren't? Also. false equivalency.

Yup. Exactly.

And I'd also like to point out that this was all done during his greater plan to commit espionage - and borderline treason.

But, you know, send him how with the wife because that's "funny."

I never missed your point, I simply never addressed it, I didn't have anything particularly to add to the point of your statement so I left it alone, in your statement the thing that I did have something to say on, was time crystals and magic.

You may not like what I addressed in your comment as opposed to other parts, but that doesn't mean addressing one part and not the other is "missing" the point. I simply just didn't consider time crystals magic so I was discussing that.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Mudd has shown self-serving thinking before. He could have had an army of robots ready to conquer the galaxy for him but he chose to sit around making hundreds sex-droids and one naggin-stella until they tired of him and needed replacements. Mudd might be the most brilliant dumb person in Trek.

So is all of Starfleet and every Klingon in DSC so far.

If the time crystals were going to become an ongoing story element, I'd complain because they're too powerful. But, I don't think that is going to happen. They were introduced just to allow this story to happen.

Bingo! THAT’S the point!