Star Trek Chronology Dating.

[Timo]

Placing Khan into the 21st century would solve many of the dating problems (or "problems"), and would directly associate him with WWIII, too. We could even excuse him using a sublight ship in an era where warp was already reality, because supervillains can't be choosers.

Personally, though, I'd hate to lose the idea of a 1990s that's more advanced than ours, yet in some ways even more barbaric. "Pushing back Star Trek" is no fun: that way we will never get warp drive, or Vulcan contact, or sanctuary districts, or the death of broadcast TV... I much prefer to think that we've already been to Saturn (and hopefully back), successfully frozen and thawed people, and launched interstellar probes! Even if it all happened in that other universe...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

The idea that Spock is using the Indian calendar seems rather strange. At the time of the Botany Bay's discovery Spock had no idea who was aboard it.

Spock: "Captain, the last such vessels were launched in the late 1990s."

At this point why would he be using the Indian calendar as reference?

But if the writers had dated the Eugenics Wars in the mid 21st century then that would have worked better overall.

 

[Timo]

Back then, the writers probably thought they had to hurry with their WWIII or the real one would overtake the events of the series...

Really, I'm fine with the idea of the Trek 20th century getting a boost from the introduction of supermen in the 1960s or so, and their active involvement in the development of technology in the 1980s or so. The supermen are such a perfect device for ushering in the age of futuristic space adventure: a clear departure from our reality (which facilitates this entire premise of "world like ours, only better"), a logical science fiction concept (which has nicely adapted to the evolution of science and scifi, with the terminology changing from eugenics to gene splicing but never really contradicting itself), and a dramatic element worth Trek's usual morality plays (they're great for mankind, but also evil, except when they aren't, and who're we to say, etc.).

Really, the only problem I have with "Space Seed" is that Spock associates Khan with "the last of your world wars". Then again, the teaser of that episode had a running theme of our main heroes making off-the-hip assessments and statements, then immediately being proven wrong (it's dead/not dead, it's not Earth/Earth after all, it's DY-500/DY-100, there must be nobody aboard/aliens aboard/humans aboard).

Spock being slightly wrong here works just fine; note McCoy rolling his eyes to Spock's lecture, and Kirk smiling knowingly... That'd be just perfect: Spock trying to teach human history to a couple of humans, and failing miserably.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Spock: "Captain, the last such vessels were launched in the late 1990s."

At this point why would he be using the Indian calendar as reference?

The way things are going in the real world, in the future India might have a manned space program while America does not.

 

[Warped9]

Spock: "Captain, the last such vessels were launched in the late 1990s."

At this point why would he be using the Indian calendar as reference?

The way things are going in the real world, in the future India might have a manned space program while America does not.

That would be retconning since when this show was written that thought would never have occurred to TOS' creators.

 

[blssdwlf]

Say in TWOK, was the Romulan Ale made in the year 2283 or Stardate 2283?

 

[StarryEyed]

Spock: "Captain, the last such vessels were launched in the late 1990s."

At this point why would he be using the Indian calendar as reference?

The way things are going in the real world, in the future India might have a manned space program while America does not.

That would be retconning since when this show was written that thought would never have occurred to TOS' creators.

Retconning is a useful tool when trying to piece together the whole Star Trek universe. It's a blunt instrument to be sure - and one I'm sure nobody likes using - but its use is hard to avoid some time.

 

[SpyOne]

Khan ruled (among other places) India.

The Indian Saka era calendar has the year zero in the Christian era calendar's year 78, so when Spock refers to the reign of Khan being from the years 1992 through 1996 (India's calendar), he really means the years 2070 AD through 2074 AD (gregorian calendar).

This is excellent.
It is nearly as good as the time dilation answer I saw elsewhere on these boards (that is, at about 0.47 times the speed of light, a passenger would experience 200 years while 275 years passed in the rest of the universe, so if Khan were traveling at 0.47 times the speed of light the answer of "two centuries" would be correct from his point of view, yet the date of roughly 2270 could also be correct.)

I say "nearly as good" because, IMO, it is slightly more plausible that Kirk would give Khan an answer of how long he had been asleep from his perspective than it is that Spock would choose a date from the Indian calendar when speaking to non-Indian people. Of course, maybe all Earth wound up adopting that calendar, especially the quarter of it Khan united under his rule, but .... it seems more of a leap to me.
Note also that 275 years travel at 0.47c is about 130 lightyears covered. I seem to recall the guy who first posted that theory saying that's about right for some of the stars in the constellation Ceti (which would be where one would find a star named Ceti Alpha).

 

[Timo]

I vaguely remember suggesting a few Cetus stars as candidates for (Something) Ceti A(lpha) - but the thing is, Cetus is a large and somewhat vaguely defined constellation including stars near and far. A Cetus star at 130 ly distance would simply be an ideally flexible candidate for an area of space that might have been visited by Archer-era Earthlings and would be reachable by even more primitive vessels, but would have been abandoned by the time of TOS.

Personally, I find it unnecessary to try and contradict Spock's "1996 years after the alleged birthdate of Christ" claim, since there's nothing particularly wrong with it. That is, there are only three reasons why it might be problematic:

1) If it's only 200 years before TOS, then TOS dating in turn may be problematic
2) If it's part of mankind's last world war, then WWIII dating might be problematic
3) It didn't happen when we had our 1996.

But the thing is, when Khan asks "How long..?" and Kirk answers "You slept for two centuries", the year 1996 is not yet part of the debate. The year 2018 is, as that's the last time one would have used cryogenics aboard an interplanetary vessel. And 2018 + 200 is already close enough to the 2260s for Kirk's statement to be literally true without the relativity trick - and becomes all the easier to accept with that trick.

As for the second problem, it's largely related to the third. In our universe, both Khan's 1990s war and the nuclear WWIII appear to be non-features. In the Trek universe, both could easily be one and the same, and the world might see no peace between 1993 and 2053. Certain fringe areas such as the "Future's End" and "Past Tense" US West Coast notwithstanding, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Say in TWOK, was the Romulan Ale made in the year 2283 or Stardate 2283?

The exact line is:

McCOY: I only use it for medicinal purposes. I got aboard a ship that brings me in a case every now and then across the Neutral Zone. Now don't be a prig.
KIRK: Twenty-two, eighty-three.
McCOY: Yeah well it takes this stuff a while to ferment. Here now, gimme...

A stardate solution would be an excellent fix, and consistent with using stradates for dates of birth (seen in other wpisodes)
Assuming it is a year though, why would it be a Terran year? It's Romulan ale after all! If the date is indeed Romulan then the ale becomes redundant as a dating method.

While we're on the subject...If we interpret the Romulan Ambassador's line in TFF as also using Romulan years:

CAITHLIN: Twenty years ago, our three governments agreed to develop this planet together. A new age was born.

Then the 20 year / 15 year discrepency between TWOK and TFF suddenly doesn't matter - two different measurement systems are being used!

 

[Timo]

Assuming it is a year though, why would it be a Terran year? It's Romulan ale after all!

But since our heroes can read the label, it's obviously a product intended for the export market.

If we interpret the Romulan Ambassador's line in TFF as also using Romulan years

Why should we? If ST5 takes place in 2285 or thereabouts, then the planet was established in 2265, give or take two years. Given a five-year mission ending in 2270, and given that "Balance of Terror" was an early first-season episode (with a 1000-range stardate for those who like to use those for keeping tabs of mission years), a date of 2266 would already be sufficient in making it a post-"BoT" event and thus in line with the episode's dialogue about preceding isolation.

We can also choose to have ST5 later if we wish, but I'd prefer to place ST2-4 within a year of that movie, both for dramatic reasons and for the stardate logic (or "logic") of them being within a thousand units all. And 2285 is nice middle ground between the "demands" of ST2 and ST5, both of which feature time references that may be rounded to the closest divisible-by-five year. Late 2285 is also a nice average for the premiere-plus-three-centuries dates of the four movies.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock: "Captain, the last such vessels were launched in the late 1990s."

At this point why would he be using the Indian calendar as reference?

The way things are going in the real world, in the future India might have a manned space program while America does not.

And this would cause a shift in which calendar being used, how?

 

[Mytran]

If we interpret the Romulan Ambassador's line in TFF as also using Romulan years

Why should we? If ST5 takes place in 2285 or thereabouts, then the planet was established in 2265, give or take two years. Given a five-year mission ending in 2270, and given that "Balance of Terror" was an early first-season episode (with a 1000-range stardate for those who like to use those for keeping tabs of mission years), a date of 2266 would already be sufficient in making it a post-"BoT" event and thus in line with the episode's dialogue about preceding isolation.

We can also choose to have ST5 later if we wish, but I'd prefer to place ST2-4 within a year of that movie, both for dramatic reasons and for the stardate logic (or "logic") of them being within a thousand units all. And 2285 is nice middle ground between the "demands" of ST2 and ST5, both of which feature time references that may be rounded to the closest divisible-by-five year. Late 2285 is also a nice average for the premiere-plus-three-centuries dates of the four movies.

I agree entirely - the dialogue in the 4 films strongly supports them happening within a span of a few months.

So, if 2285 is the date of TFF (and about 20 years after BOT) then how does that work with TWOK happening 15 years after Space Seed? SS would have had to occured around 2270, very near the end of the 5 year mission! Or perhaps not, if we go the stardate route:

1512 Corbomite Maneuver (start of 5 year mission)
1709 Balance of Terror (2 months in)
3141 Space Seed (1 year 7 months in)
5943 All Our Yesterdays (4 years 5 months in)

and just for fun, I've extended it with TAS:

6770 Counter Clock Incident (5 years 3 months in)
7403 Bem (5 years 10 months in)
7412 The Motion Picture (5 years 11 months in)

(Hmm, that just raises more questions! oh well, back to the subject in hand):

So, SS could have occurred in the 2nd year of the mission. This would place TWOK 18 years later, not 15. While I agree that characters sometimes round up units of time I can't believe that Khan would do so - he would count every tormented year that he was stuck on Ceti Alpha V, nuturing his hate, waiting for vengeance against the hated captain... If it had really been 18 years, I can't believe that he would not have said so.

 

[Timo]

Of course, Khan would be stuck on a single planet without communications - so it sounds rather natural that he, and especially he, would live by the years of that planet, and would devote not a thought to the timekeeping systems of other, lesser people...

The other possibility is that "Space Seed" happened 18 years prior, but the last encounter between Kirk and Khan took place 15 years prior. Kirk has been known to keep a secret or two...

On the general issue of stardates, the 1000 SD/yr agade means that the stardates roll over once in a decade and start anew. There's probably a separate decade digit that our heroes drop, and a century digit, just like we today drop digits. The TNG people spell out those, but the TOS people might have had "Corbomite Maneuver" launch the 5YM on SD 121512 (corresponding to early 2266) and "All Our Yesterdays" conclude it on SD 125943 (corresponding to mid-2270), then doing further missions such as "Bem" on SD 127403 (corresponding to 2272) yet getting together again for ST:TMP on SD 137412, a full decade after TAS.

Which works pretty well with the idea that both TOS and the early movies took place 300 years after airdate (that is, TMP at the end of the 2270s, the movies 2-5 compressed around their average premiere date in 2285).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Say in TWOK, was the Romulan Ale made in the year 2283 or Stardate 2283?

The exact line is:

McCOY: I only use it for medicinal purposes. I got aboard a ship that brings me in a case every now and then across the Neutral Zone. Now don't be a prig.
KIRK: Twenty-two, eighty-three.
McCOY: Yeah well it takes this stuff a while to ferment. Here now, gimme...

Sure sounds to me like McCoy is being sarcastic, meaning that Romulan Ale ferments almost instantly!

 

[blssdwlf]

@Mytran and Timo - Me too. I prefer keeping ST:V very close to ST:IV since they just got the ship

Here's a thought. Since ST:V took place after the time-travel event in ST:IV, couldn't we just account for Caithlin's dialogue as being correct? When the crew came back with the whales, some events like the establishment of galactic peace planet took place 5 years prior to Space Seed and alot of other dates got shoved around? Or more simply, Caithlin could've just rounded up to make her assignment to sound more prestigious?

 

[Mytran]

I think Caithlin is more like to round off numbers than Khan, certainly.

Time-travel timeline changes is a possibility, but it's a bit of an cheaty fix - I prefer to save that for the really big problems!

 

[Timo]

Sure sounds to me like McCoy is being sarcastic, meaning that Romulan Ale ferments almost instantly!

In that case, 2283 could not be a year, because no joke hinging on the passage of small units of time could be based on a datapoint that is given at no better resolution than whole years.

And the joke would still be a really thin one if 2283 were a stardate. Why would Kirk comment (seemingly negatively) on the fact that the beer he got is brand new, or only some days old? Why would McCoy need to respond defensively to that?

It makes much more sense for 2283 to indeed be a year, so Kirk could be worried about the bottle being old and possibly stale, and McCoy could get defensive (because obviously it's difficult to get those things across the border, and McCoy probably dug the bottle out of a dusty cabinet after having acquired it some years ago, instead of somehow managing to procure one from Romulus in a timely manner), citing the slow fermentation issue (whether true or untrue) and knowing his friend would understand.

Incidentally, since we know Romulan ale is supposed to be a potent inebriant, it's probably strong in alcohol and likely to weather a few years of storage rather well...

If 2283 is a year, in any timekeeping system (barring the Scalosian one, perhaps!), then the time intervals our heroes speak about or joke about must be in the order of years, too.

Time-travel timeline changes is a possibility, but it's a bit of an cheaty fix - I prefer to save that for the really big problems!

It's a nifty fix for the overlapping stardates of "Miri" and "Dagger of the Mind", tho, thanks to "The Naked Time".

Although actually there's no overlap there. Kirk must have misspoken his "Miri" line where the next log entry after SD 2713.6 turns from the sensible SD 2713.7 into the overlapping SD 2717.3. Elsewhere in the episode the corresponding passage of time is indicated in increments of 0.1 units, not in increments as large as 4.

(And I do mean Kirk misspeaking, not Shatner. Perhaps the line was written wrong for Shatner, perhaps Shatner misread it, but it's Kirk who spoke the line in-universe, and we can treat it as an innocent mistake of Kirk's. Using character fallibility does trump using time travel in my opinion, too!)

Incidentally, regarding the Planet of Galactic Peace, I wouldn't put it past the Romulans, Klingons and UFP to have negotiated some sort of a secret peace arrangement prior to "BoT" without deigning to inform Captain James T. Kirk about it. Kirk was spectacularly uninformed about Romulan affairs in that episode anyway!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Interesting points guys Speaking of the Planet of Galactic Peace, is it definite that when it started "20 years ago" that all 3 members were part of it? Could it had been just Feds + Klingons and the Romulans added after the BOT event?

 

[Timo]

"Twenty years ago, our three governments agreed to develop this planet together. A new age was born."

Perhaps Caithlin Dar is saying that in 2265, the three Romulan governments that were backstabbing each other at the time agreed to take a little breather and to jointly partake in the ongoing UFP/Klingon Planet of Galactic Peace project as soon as convenient? Which turned out to be soon after "BoT".

If the three governments were those of the three people at the table, then the agreement either came slightly less than 20 years prior to the movie, or then was kept secret from Kirk, or is valid proof that TOS took place earlier or ST5 later than speculated above.

Timo Saloniemi