For some reason I see a very young Treat Williams in that shot of Pine.
with the hairdo and jacket how about original Starbuck..?I see a young Robert Pine from CHiPs.
Yeah, I can see the Treat Williams comparison there.
Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
- Start date
I believe that's right after "Alien influences and you-how your mind is an alien playground."
^ Followed by 'Why Starfleet believes sending horny young males and females on five year, deep space missions is a good test of Terran fraternisation laws.'
I think folks have forgotten that ship-board "fraternization" in Star Trek, started from day one...
As is evident in this series of pics from "The Cage"...
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=88&page=5
And Captain Pike didn't even bat an eyelash.
As is evident in this series of pics from "The Cage"...
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=88&page=5
And Captain Pike didn't even bat an eyelash.
^The Vulcans, Tellarites and Andorians refused to sign the Federation charter until the following Terrancentric law was rescinded.
1. Fraternisation on military vessels
a) For Vulcans - it is a matter of life and death
b) For Andorians - since they only do things in fours
c) For Tellarites - since the battle of the sexes is the greatest battle of all
1. Fraternisation on military vessels
a) For Vulcans - it is a matter of life and death
b) For Andorians - since they only do things in fours
c) For Tellarites - since the battle of the sexes is the greatest battle of all
I think it's hard to show they are best buddies in a movie due to time constraints, but there was enough bromance there for me. The whole scene in Pike's office were Spock got mouthy to Pike defending what they did and the way he and Kirk argued like an old married couple about him submitting the report showed it. They got so into it, they completely ignored Pike, which shows it was familiar type of banter for them. Then there was the scene where Spock looked clearly jealous over Carol Marcus coming aboard. I could go on. I can see where it wasn't enough though but unlike a tv series they don't have the time to show just how close they've come in detail. It was entirely believable to me that he came unhinged when Kirk died. He'd already lost his mother and whole planet and then ID was about him coming to realize what Kirk meant to him and then as soon as he did realize, Kirk dies. It worked for me.
It didn't blow up. Thesis disproved.
I love the humor, but to say Spock was jealous of Carol is a bit too reduttive and out of character, though. The scene indeed plays with it making it seems he is butthurt over another science officer joining the ship, which is good for comedy relief so that definitely is a layer of that, but to be fair here, when Carol showed up on the shuttle Spock got suspicious over the fact that a new science officer was assigned to the ship without Kirk knowing or requesting this new officer. It's part of his job to know about new crew members too and..well, question things. And Spock was already suspicious about admiral Marcus giving them the torpedoes and he disagreed with Kirk... and then this gal shows up all the sudden and she conveniently is specialized in advanced weaponry? So he investigated and busted her, but when he saw she didn't pose a threat, lie aside, he didn't even tell Kirk until he suggested her for the mission because he deemed her as the more qualified for it. He had nothing against her. That showed that his reasons for his first seemingly wary reaction over her weren't about petty jealousy or him irrationally disliking her, and really he was just doing his job. I might argue that Kirk should've been a bit more cautious and wary too.
But really, it's funny but the times you see Spock argue with Kirk about his decisions..he is literally doing his job. We forget about that, but I believe the first officer is supposed to bring an opposite perspective at occurrence, the captain has a huge responsibility and as everyone's superior on the ship he still definitely needs a counter-argument from his team to question his decisions a bit.
As for the scene in Pike's office, I think what happened - Kirk lying in the report, Spock saying the truth. Neither of them knowing what the other would do or did - showed, actually, how they still don't know each other so well and they have a long way to go before being like friends. It also showed they still had to work on being truly a team and TALK about stuff. Kirk also seemed to have no idea about Spock possibly having PTSD and him being suicidal/ooc in the volcano, and this also shows lack of communication and understanding. They were co-workers with banter but friendship is a whole different level.
I also object to people's making it seems Spock is dumb for not getting why him and Kirk are friends when the latter tells him. He was being, well, realistic. I don't see how from his perspective they were these huge friends. This even taking into consideration that, indeed, Spock was not experienced about having friends. I mean, he has Uhura who is his friend too but it's different because she also is the person he is in love with, his feelings for her and viceversa were something he knew and could thus rationalize and understand her care for him. The challenge and discovery for him in the movie was getting why other people, beyond the person he has a relationship with, cared for him and he cares for them.
I think the k/s dynamic was realistic until the ending that was a bit too over the top (even if for Spock it really was an example of the infamous 'last straw' after everything he went through)
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I personally do view them as friends, but both Kirk and Spock see that in different ways, with Spock gradually coming to the realization of Kirk's emotional sentiment towards Spock, forming from a grudging respect to a professional friendship (yes, that's a thing).
I think that the K/S dynamic is a bit rushed, but I definitely get a sense of connection from the two, but even Kirk in the Prime continuity didn't know personal details about Spock. Spock is a very private person, and Kirk respects that. Nu-Kirk is someone who values loyalty above all else, even above honesty, and he thinks that Spock is being disloyal when he makes his report to Pike. It takes the movie's events for Spock to understand Kirk's desire for loyalty in the friendship and Kirk to understand the duty and sacrifice that Spock exemplifies.
I think a lot is lost in translation in that people expect the K/S dynamic of TOS but that won't be there, but a friendship is there and it is growing. I think Spock's reaction after Kirk's death is both another loss that Spock doesn't want to deal with and the blow that he recognizes what that friendship meant.
I think that the K/S dynamic is a bit rushed, but I definitely get a sense of connection from the two, but even Kirk in the Prime continuity didn't know personal details about Spock. Spock is a very private person, and Kirk respects that. Nu-Kirk is someone who values loyalty above all else, even above honesty, and he thinks that Spock is being disloyal when he makes his report to Pike. It takes the movie's events for Spock to understand Kirk's desire for loyalty in the friendship and Kirk to understand the duty and sacrifice that Spock exemplifies.
I think a lot is lost in translation in that people expect the K/S dynamic of TOS but that won't be there, but a friendship is there and it is growing. I think Spock's reaction after Kirk's death is both another loss that Spock doesn't want to deal with and the blow that he recognizes what that friendship meant.
Well you are seeing it more from Spock's perception and I think I'm looking at it more from Kirks. On Spock's willingness to die, by that argument, Uhura didn't know about Spock's PTSD either and you can't claim she didn't have a relationship with him. If she had known before hand do you think she would have allowed him down there without informing Kirk? Kirk wasn't happy with Spock about that either, hence the whole elevator scene with Uhura discussing Spock. I think the office scene and the scene where Kirk says, 'I'm gonna miss you,' and waits for reciprocation is Spock not understanding friendship. He didn't know what motivated Kirk to make the decisions he did, else the writers would not have made it such a pivotal plot in Kirk's death scene 'I want you to know why I went back for you.' And Spock's answer where he finally clues in 'Because you are my friend.' I kinda wish they had waited for this movie until after Beyond (and nixed Khan but that's another argument entirely lol) and spent more time building up the growing Spock/Kirk friendship. But that's the nature of movies. They have to rush it to fit it all in.
As I see it, Spock's arc in this movie is coming to understand what being a friend means and what that means to Kirk. As a Vulcan he's never had that outside of family or Uhura. I see Kirk's arc as coming to realize what responsibility is and what that cost and how far he is willing to go for his friends. It's rather interesting that this involves death for both he and Spock and not necessarily just the one. I'm counting Pikes death here as well as Kirk's death as it affected both of them.
Edit: Also forgot to say, if Kirk had been really mad about 'pointy throwing him under the bus' would he really have told Spock he was going to miss him and then made a point of requesting his reinstatement from Marcus if he didn't consider Spock his friend?
I submitted a short video of my underwear batleth practice session. These videos won't be made public, will they?
I do think that tos k/s is projected too much on nutrek k/s by both the writers and fans, as a result their dynamic feels rushed and, at times, pretentious.
Our definition of friendship might be different due to personal experiences too. I'm sure it's not the same exact thing for everyone, hence we might not 'see it' if the deciption in fiction doesn't fit with how we know and experience that.
also, it's true that tos Kirk didn't know a lot about Spock's personal life either; the motion picture is an example of the distance, outside of their job, between them in that Kirk doesn't really know why Spock left them and what he wanted to do. He also didn't know he had a brother. Their friendship is more based on on working together as a team and, in a sense, they are more like brothers than like best friends, at least from my personal perspective. My brother is someone I care about but it transcends the fact that, in reality, he is not my confidante or someone who knows everything about me.
Mccoy, as a doctor, probably would be the one who should've realized Spock had PTSD and thus tell Kirk that he should not allow Spock to dangerous missions (or should even put him on leave). It's his job.
I think Uhura suspected and noticed a change in Spock that somehow didn't make sense with the guy she knew, but she is not a doctor and it's all new for her too and she doesn't know how to handle it all. It's not everyday that Vulcan gets destroyed.
When she lowered Spock into the volcano her face says it all (notable that she shows her concern only when he cannot see, before she tries to infuse him with support and confidence that the plan would go well), so does her anger later.
The argument scene implies she had tried to talk with him about it, but he avoided the problem (which is typical). People with ptsd tend to get closed off precisely with the ones they care the most about (and Spock has a deeper reason too that he explains)
Their scene pretty much is about her also pointing up that he was being suicidal and acting irrational.
The thing is, some people I think confuse that with her expecting him to be human and have feelings like her, but they forget that they have a relationship and she knows him and knows he has feelings. Her stance is not the same as Kirk's, though they have something in common there, and being there with them when they have that argument no doubt helps Kirk understand Spock better too.
That scene is not her telling him 'you are a Vulcan and I don't like that', she doesn't have a problem with him being part Vulcan (in the first movie her 'what do you need?' And her 'ok' at his answer is, IMO, a good example of her understanding him and respecting he uses control and logic to deal with things, that being his comfort. Also the way she looks at him after he almost choked Kirk and you can feel she wants to comfort him but in that instance she knows he needs to be alone ) never she makes her argument about his alieness (she is alien too. Humans are not the default). It's about him being irrational which, if anything and ironically (at least when I read how some fans talk about the scene and them thinking that Spock is being just a normal vulcan by being suicidal), is ooc with him being a Vulcan too.
We never get the chance to see them as a couple in private, but the scene on the transport pad from the first movie (and his speech in the argument from stid) should definitely give people a clue about how he acts with her and the fact that the Spock she knows is not cold and unemotional. She doesn't demand him to have feelings nor she is delusional, she knows he does have feelings and if he is acting cold it's not because of his Vulcan culture or his 'nature' being cold and robotic. In short, she was calling him out for his behavior in that particular instance because it was, most likely, ooc for the Spock she knew and, actually, it was ooc even for his Vulcan half.
Spock, from his part, I think he was being himself in the measure of him genuinely not understanding that Uhura could misunderstand his behavior for a lack of care. That's why, when that becomes truly apparent to him that he finally speaks to reassure her and thus explain himself. It's good, they are both alien to each other and that was his turn to understand that while she might be understanding of his Vulcan culture in other instances, she is only human and he gotta respect that too and not take things for granted and that she 'translates' his every behavior.
That said, I also think that his perspective was realistic and not really so 'alien' because anyone in his place wouldn't get why Kirk wanted to be his friend (and it's possible Kirk himself was a bit influenced by Spock Prime) so it's a bit of both, and it makes all sense for his character.
I agree.
Our definition of friendship might be different due to personal experiences too. I'm sure it's not the same exact thing for everyone, hence we might not 'see it' if the deciption in fiction doesn't fit with how we know and experience that.
also, it's true that tos Kirk didn't know a lot about Spock's personal life either; the motion picture is an example of the distance, outside of their job, between them in that Kirk doesn't really know why Spock left them and what he wanted to do. He also didn't know he had a brother. Their friendship is more based on on working together as a team and, in a sense, they are more like brothers than like best friends, at least from my personal perspective. My brother is someone I care about but it transcends the fact that, in reality, he is not my confidante or someone who knows everything about me.
Mccoy, as a doctor, probably would be the one who should've realized Spock had PTSD and thus tell Kirk that he should not allow Spock to dangerous missions (or should even put him on leave). It's his job.
I think Uhura suspected and noticed a change in Spock that somehow didn't make sense with the guy she knew, but she is not a doctor and it's all new for her too and she doesn't know how to handle it all. It's not everyday that Vulcan gets destroyed.
When she lowered Spock into the volcano her face says it all (notable that she shows her concern only when he cannot see, before she tries to infuse him with support and confidence that the plan would go well), so does her anger later.
The argument scene implies she had tried to talk with him about it, but he avoided the problem (which is typical). People with ptsd tend to get closed off precisely with the ones they care the most about (and Spock has a deeper reason too that he explains)
Their scene pretty much is about her also pointing up that he was being suicidal and acting irrational.
The thing is, some people I think confuse that with her expecting him to be human and have feelings like her, but they forget that they have a relationship and she knows him and knows he has feelings. Her stance is not the same as Kirk's, though they have something in common there, and being there with them when they have that argument no doubt helps Kirk understand Spock better too.
That scene is not her telling him 'you are a Vulcan and I don't like that', she doesn't have a problem with him being part Vulcan (in the first movie her 'what do you need?' And her 'ok' at his answer is, IMO, a good example of her understanding him and respecting he uses control and logic to deal with things, that being his comfort. Also the way she looks at him after he almost choked Kirk and you can feel she wants to comfort him but in that instance she knows he needs to be alone ) never she makes her argument about his alieness (she is alien too. Humans are not the default). It's about him being irrational which, if anything and ironically (at least when I read how some fans talk about the scene and them thinking that Spock is being just a normal vulcan by being suicidal), is ooc with him being a Vulcan too.
We never get the chance to see them as a couple in private, but the scene on the transport pad from the first movie (and his speech in the argument from stid) should definitely give people a clue about how he acts with her and the fact that the Spock she knows is not cold and unemotional. She doesn't demand him to have feelings nor she is delusional, she knows he does have feelings and if he is acting cold it's not because of his Vulcan culture or his 'nature' being cold and robotic. In short, she was calling him out for his behavior in that particular instance because it was, most likely, ooc for the Spock she knew and, actually, it was ooc even for his Vulcan half.
Spock, from his part, I think he was being himself in the measure of him genuinely not understanding that Uhura could misunderstand his behavior for a lack of care. That's why, when that becomes truly apparent to him that he finally speaks to reassure her and thus explain himself. It's good, they are both alien to each other and that was his turn to understand that while she might be understanding of his Vulcan culture in other instances, she is only human and he gotta respect that too and not take things for granted and that she 'translates' his every behavior.
That's my point too. Spock's only experience with friendship seems to be his relationship with Uhura, but the nature of that relationship having that 'plus' layer to it, means that he still wasn't an expert about platonic friendship in general that are still new to him. And we see that even with Uhura, he is not an expert and he still has to learn (and so does she)
That said, I also think that his perspective was realistic and not really so 'alien' because anyone in his place wouldn't get why Kirk wanted to be his friend (and it's possible Kirk himself was a bit influenced by Spock Prime) so it's a bit of both, and it makes all sense for his character.
I agree.
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This strikes me as funny--even though I don't want to know what your practicing and no don't tell me--because I was thinking earlier how funny it would be if I remade Carol Marcus's underwear scene but instead wore my star trek favorites.
Not that I would ever actually do that of course.
I propose the next movie we have the Enterprise again landing on water only the monster from Deep Rising boards the ship . Fun ensues.
I'm really excited about this movie. 
This will be the first new trek I will see on a big screen
You're right, the planet Vulcan still exists in the JJ universe, waiting for 'Star Trek IV - The search for Vulcan, T'Pau and Red matter' or perhaps 'Star Trek V - Lost, The missing 6 billion'
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