Star Trek and Liberalism....

[suarezguy]

What about the decline in Conservatism?

A lot of its followers and their agenda were called insane and anti-science back in the '60s as well. Regardless, it's hardly surprising that with more media attention the beliefs and goals of the two main parties have diverged or at least become more visibly distinct.

Looking at the authors article..it seems as if he takes peace with the Klingon Empire as an insult...imagine of the Allies didn't agree to "forgive" a lot of atrocities in order to forge peaceful coexistence after a long, hard war.

A lot of people consider that questionable at best if not highly unjust. That it worked and may even often be necessary doesn't mean it's not and shouldn't be ethically difficult.

The author then goes and takes JJ ABrams out of context, who said he didn't understand ST but goes on to say he understood it better since.

Well the idea of characters literally having a destiny that causes events and developments to happen (or can even be described as such) seems pretty new if not inconsistent with the past works.

 

[T'Girl]

Well the idea of characters literally having a destiny that causes events and developments to happen (or can even be described as such) seems pretty new if not inconsistent with the past works.

Not entirely, Deanna Troi metioned destiny or fate on a couple of occasions, Pen Pals make it seem as if she has a belief in such. And there's the the thing with Sisko and the Prophets.

Looking at the authors article..it seems as if he takes peace with the Klingon Empire as an insult...imagine of the Allies didn't agree to "forgive" a lot of atrocities in order to forge peaceful coexistence after a long, hard war.

A lot of people consider that questionable at best if not highly unjust. That it worked and may even often be necessary doesn't mean it's not and shouldn't be ethically difficult.

The Nazis were never forgiven, only resently a woman in America (forget the name) was being investigated because she might have been involved with the holocaust. Major players in the German and Japanese military and civil governments were executed or recieved prison sentences after the war.

.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Espaço-chica:

Both major political parties in America possesses a zealot core.

For every Sean Hannity there is a counter-part Rachel Maddow.

...with the left holding a majority of major media outlets routinely using far left pundits (zealots) as the "average person's voice" when that could not be more removed from the truth.

 

[Kor]

It would have been nice if ST6 showed the Klingon Empire making significant (maybe even radical) reforms, since they had previously been portrayed as warmongering, savage, and oppressive conquerors.... not something that the Federation would ever take sides with.

For comparison, the allied powers did not make peace with the Nazis. The Nazi regime was put to an end and a new governmental framework was established.

And the Cold War ended when the former Eastern Bloc changed dramatically with the dissolution of the whole Soviet system (I know that's an oversimplification).

Kor

 

[T'Girl]

It would have been nice if ST6 showed the Klingon Empire making significant (maybe even radical) reforms, since they had previously been portrayed as warmongering, savage, and oppressive conquerors.... not something that the Federation would ever take sides with.

It might have enhanced the movie if it was made crystal clear then the Federation and the Empire were only stepping back from a hot/cold war orientation ... and not in any way becoming friends/allies/lovers.

We agree to disagree and will stay out of each other territories and lives.

That's all.

 

[Kor]

^ Yes, that would be realistic too.

But I think TPTB were trying to neatly show, in one standalone movie, how the Federation and the Klingons went from being enemies in TOS to friends in TNG, while simultaneously bonking us on the head with a combined "end of the Cold War" friendship story and Hunt for Red October ripoff.

Kor

 

[LadyT'Anna]

To throw another wrench into the works, it seems to me that the Klingon ethos is basically that of medieval Europe: loyalty to one's house, preference of rank/status over merit (see: Kor's early treatment of Martok), the elevation of women (Martok addresses his own wife as "my lady"), and above all, a strict and inviolable code of honor. As if all that weren't enough, Klingons even appear medieval in their manner of dress! I can't imagine Roddenberry or anyone else equating European medievalism with liberalism, and yet the arguably liberal Federation ends up making peace with the Klingon Empire.

Makes one think . . .

 

[A beaker full of death]

Apologies if someone has already pointed this out, but I don't think you can separate Trek from the humanist literary tradition that was pretty much culminating at the time, after decades of sci fi writing. In fact, it was prevalent throughout the arts and humanities. Art is by its nature a liberal medium (and I say this as a political conservative). Art is about questioning, examining, re-defining (or, indeed, rejecting all definition). Star Trek fit right into the post-post-modernist tradition. It is no coincidence that Roddenberry's favorite stories involve the questioning of religion - indeed, of God himself.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Apologies if someone has already pointed this out, but I don't think you can separate Trek from the humanist literary tradition that was pretty much culminating at the time, after decades of sci fi writing. In fact, it was prevalent throughout the arts and humanities. Art is by its nature a liberal medium (and I say this as a political conservative). Art is about questioning, examining, re-defining (or, indeed, rejecting all definition). Star Trek fit right into the post-post-modernist tradition. It is no coincidence that Roddenberry's favorite stories involve the questioning of religion - indeed, of God himself.

"God created man in his own image. And man, being a gentleman, returned the favor."

Most interesting.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Apologies if someone has already pointed this out, but I don't think you can separate Trek from the humanist literary tradition that was pretty much culminating at the time, after decades of sci fi writing. In fact, it was prevalent throughout the arts and humanities. Art is by its nature a liberal medium (and I say this as a political conservative). Art is about questioning, examining, re-defining (or, indeed, rejecting all definition). Star Trek fit right into the post-post-modernist tradition. It is no coincidence that Roddenberry's favorite stories involve the questioning of religion - indeed, of God himself.

Despite Roddenberry's post TOS transformation into a typically 1970s end of the near-militant atheist set, TOS challenged false gods, but the belief in God was present, with Biblical references from main characters.

Recall the diffrence between the 23rd century characters' acceptance and/or belief in God:

McCoy in Act 1 & the final Kirk/Uhura bridge lines from "Bread and Circuses," or Kirk's "We find the one quite sufficient" from "Who Mourns for Adonais" (as a counter to apparently false "gods" of myth). I would add, Daystrom's "Murder is contrary to the laws of man and God" stands as more evidence of the continued belief.

Further, some love to use the "Kirk was always tearing down gods" line as behavior suggestive of rejection/disbelief (as a proxy for Roddenberry), but if one considers the quoted lines above (particularly his comment/relationship to Apollo), then we could take his efforts as meaning he does not stomach frauds--behavior echoed in The Final Frontier with his questioning of the entity.

 

[Kor]

^ Some have said that such lines were included so as not to offend the sensibilities of the more traditionally-minded audiences of the time, not necessarily reflecting Roddenberry's views. Maybe someone else has more details.

Kor

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

^ Some have said that such lines were included so as not to offend the sensibilities of the more traditionally-minded audiences of the time, not necessarily reflecting Roddenberry's views. Maybe someone else has more details.

Kor

There was no obligation to have any character express belief on a far-future TV series; they could have--just as easily--had the characters say anything else, or tackle Apollo (for one example) without stating a belief in God, but it was written into the script. The same with "Bread and Circuses," where the Son, could have been the original misunderstanding as "sun," but a defined, specific religious reference was added.

 

[T'Girl]

It is no coincidence that Roddenberry's favorite stories involve the questioning of religion - indeed, of God himself.

Roddenberry's favorite stories involved gold-digger women and psycho ex-girlfriends (based on what he wrote for TOS).

Oh. and a female first officer who "walked like a stripper queen."

^ Some have said that such lines were included so as not to offend the sensibilities of the more traditionally-minded audiences of the time, not necessarily reflecting Roddenberry's views. Maybe someone else has more details.

Who are these some?

Is it's like some saying that Roddenberry was "forced" by NBC to place a Christian wedding scene into Balance of Terror, a supposition for which there is no evidence.

.

 

[BillJ]

Oh. and a female first officer who "walked like a stripper queen."

I actually believe that is from TNG, in regards to Beverly Crusher.

 

[RAMA]

About the Nazis...my point wasn't that there weren't trials or large numbers of people involved didn't hate or personally forgive the Germans, but that taken as a whole, the Allies had to forgive many details of atrocities in order to enter into a useful post-war period, as opposed to the rather harsh and ultimately self-defeating post WWI armistice.

Yes, the political parties in the USA are rather unique in the world, more polarized than ever, with extremists on both sides. but taken on balance, the Republican party is more extremist than their past "ideals" and are for more dangerous politically than liberal extremists. They are the only conservative party in the entire world who deny climate change and is so wholeheartedly anti-science.

http://inhabitat.com/house-passes-bill-that-prohibits-expert-scientific-advice-to-the-epa/

In 1995 the Newt Gingrich led republicans shut down several scientific advisory groups and have not restored them, including the Office of Technology Assessment:

http://io9.com/a-key-reason-why-u-s-politicians-dont-understand-scien-1575132934

www.usnews.com/news/articles/2007/12/06/wanted-on-the-hill-a-few-good-scientists

Today, distorting or omitting inconvenient truths is endemic, critics charge. Adrian Melott, a physicist at the University of Kansas who battled against creationist teachings in local science classes, calls the current administration "far worse than any we've ever seen in terms of distorting science for political ends." Melott's main gripe now is with global warming. Case in point: A recent report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that was intended to outline health impacts of global warming was redacted by the White House to concentrate solely on what's being done to protect public health in a warmer future.

 

[A beaker full of death]

the Republican party is more extremist than their past "ideals" and are for more dangerous politically than liberal extremists.

But you're not biased or anything.
Do we really need to get into this here? I'm not inclined to let such nonsense stand, but this is NOT the place.

 

[RAMA]

the Republican party is more extremist than their past "ideals" and are for more dangerous politically than liberal extremists.

But you're not biased or anything.
Do we really need to get into this here? I'm not inclined to let such nonsense stand, but this is NOT the place.

What nonsense? It's easy to support this fact, but I won't get into deeply here. It would be self-apparent that just two things, the GOP majority in Congress and their unwillingness to admit climate change (Possibly the greatest and possibly most unsolvable problem facing humanity) would make them more dangerous.

The more extreme GOP congress in statistics:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-1970s-and-has-been-getting-worse-ever-since/

It's pertinent in the sense that the OP article makes a false judgement to begin with.

 

[scotpens]

Oh. and a female first officer who "walked like a stripper queen."

I actually believe that is from TNG, in regards to Beverly Crusher..

In the original series outline, G.R. also described the Captain's Yeoman as having "a strip-queen figure even a uniform cannot hide." The man must have had a thing for strippers.

 

[T'Girl]

the GOP majority in Congress and their unwillingness to admit climate change

A admission that could lead to disastrous regulations and international agreements that would put America at a inferior manufacturing and international trade position in comparison to nations like China and India (and others).

What possible advantage would there be to such an admission
to the America people?

The Republican's official position is the correct one, the public position of some Democrats on this matter is nothing but foolishness.

*******

Transfer this to Star Trek, during the Dominion War the Federation Council gained knowledge of the cure for the sickness the Founder had been infected with. Did the Council immediately distribute this information, of course not, it wasn't in the Federation Membership's best interests that this particular knowledge be acknowledged and released.

Officially the knowledge didn't exist.

.

 

[Kor]

Who are these some?

Other posters on this board. I left that open-ended by inviting someone else to provide details.

Is it's like some saying that Roddenberry was "forced" by NBC to place a Christian wedding scene into Balance of Terror, a supposition for which there is no evidence.

.

I don't remember the wedding ceremony being particularly religious, but I haven't watched the episode in a while.

Kor