Star Trek 6, The Dinner Scene....

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

This was probably already brought up in another thread, but I've always wondered what was supposed to be implied during the dinner scene between the ENT crew and Gorkon's crew...

Granted, Spock mentions the ENT crew's behavior, but I couldn't catch anything the crew said or did (save for the slight argument with Kerla's opinions) that might have been offensive...

I thought there could have been something when Scotty mentions that they are possibly seeing progress at the dinner table, and the film cuts to a light reaction from Gorkon...(Not too mention, Spock cutting in on Kirk, when Kirk and Chang are speaking).

Another account, (a take I read somewhere), that the crew was a bit drunk on Romulan Ale, that they were saying things they wouldn't have sober; but I didn't really catch anything out of the ordinary, given the situation that they would obviously disagree...

Anywho, was the scene supposed to show the ENT crew in a bad light?

 

[guardian]

Ah, how about comparing Chang's statement to Adolph Hitler---the biggest criminal in earth history?

But, there was more cut out for time--read the script---there is more cut out in the dinner than any other scenes in the movie --except the trial. Dozens of lines of dialogue where the drunken crew keep sticking thier fett further in their mouths.

 

[A beaker full of death]

guardian said:
But, there was more cut out for time--read the script---there is more cut out in the dinner than any other scenes in the movie --except the trial. Dozens of lines of dialogue where the drunken crew keep sticking thier fett further in their mouths.

it was a horrible scene, choppy as hell. They edited it with a vegematic.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

The novelization shows that the crew said some really bad stuff.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

This scene IS edited badly, but... I still enjoy it no matter what.

Especially Spock's look that he sends over in Kirk's direction after the "Hitler. Earth..." line. Just classic!



Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Kryton]

Ugh. Heavy-handed script and direction. I won't ever own this film.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Colonel Midnight said:
This scene IS edited badly, but... I still enjoy it no matter what.

Especially Spock's look that he sends over in Kirk's direction after the "Hitler. Earth..." line. Just classic!



Cheers,
-CM-

Yeah, our Vulcan buddy looked like he'd keel over...

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

Looking at some of the comments, I think I understand now...(i.e. 'stuff' was left on the cutting room floor; and the novelization goes into the scene a bit more).

Interesting.

 

[Plum]

^^^
I am not sure about how cut-up the dinner scene was. But the scene is chock full of meaningful dialog that set the character of the entire movie.

The special features on the remastered DVD set has some really, really, terrific interviews with the writers, director, and so on. They have lots of interesting comments about the scene.

The scene sets up the cultural animosity between the Klingon Empires and the Federation. Each has it's own prejudices towards the other. The fascinating thing is how the dialog in these scenes cleverly mirror rhetoric and bigotry in our own culture. Everything from Chekov's "Guess who's coming to dinner" to the Klingons pointing out federation prejudice.

If there is more on the cutting room floor, I'm not sure why. The scene seemed smooth and complete to me.

 

[Nebusj]

I don't think I'd say there was anything particular and specifically rude in the dinner scene -- although Kirk's ``Earth, Hitler, 1938'' couldn't have been taken as something to smooth relations, and Chekov's comment about all planets having inalienable human rights is sensible only if Chekov was having a conversation in some other movie -- but the effect was one of tension and anxiety. There's may not be specific errors on anyone's part, but given that the intention was to show goodwill and peace all around and everyone left the dinner more wound up than they arrived, it has to be rated a failure.

 

[David cgc]

I never thought that the dinner scene seemed particularly incoherent, but this thread prompted me to look at the original scripted version of the scene. Once I did, it did start to seem a little like a Frankenstein's monster.

From the original Star Trek VI screenplayhttp://st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/index.htmlhttp://st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/index.html
43 INT. OFFICERS' MESS, ENTERPRISE 43

A WINDOW IRISES OPEN REVEALING the stars gliding by.

A HAND POURS DEEP BLUE ROMULAN ALE into Gorkon's
crystal goblet. Dinner well underway. Principles from
both parties are at table. STEWARDS keep food and
drink in motion.

GORKON
I give you a toast: the undiscovered country -
(off their looks)
the future.

All drink ROMULAN ALE, echoing "the undiscovered
country." The KLINGONS eat with their fingers,
scorning utensils.

SPOCK
HAMLET, act three, scene one.

GORKON
You have never experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon.

Chang turns to Kirk with a malicious twinkle.

CHANG
"To be or not to be, that is the question" which preoccupies our people, Captain Kirk. We need BREATHING room...

KIRK
I beg your pardon?

KERLA
Captain Kirk, I thought Romulan ale was illegal.

It takes Kirk a moment to regain his composure.

KIRK
One of the advantages of being a thousand light years from Federation headquarters.

Silence.

BONES
To you, Chancellor Gorkon: one of the architects of our future.

All drink. As Romulan ale flows throughout the scene,
tongues get looser. Gorkon WATCHES.

SCOTTY
Perhaps we are looking at something of that future here.

AZETBUR
Commander Spock, mindful of all your work behind the scenes, and despite the cordiality at this mess, I do not sense an acceptance of our people throughout your ship.

SPOCK
They're naturally wary, ma'am. We've been at war a long time.

UHURA
How do both sides overcome ingrained prejudice?

CHEKOV
Perhaps with a few small steps at a time. Like this one.

BONES
And perhaps with a large step or two. Like a peace treaty.

CHANG
Captain Kirk, are you willing to give up Starfleet?

Kirk stares.

SPOCK
(looks at Kirk)
I believe the Captain feels that Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace -

KIRK
(glares)
Far be it for me to dispute my first officer. Starfleet has always -

CHANG
Come now, Captain, this dinner is off the record: in space all warriors are cold warriors.

SCOTTY
We have never tried to --

KERLA
You hypocritically presume that your democratic system gives you a moral prerogative to force other cultures to conform to your politics.

BONES
That's not true...!

KERLA
No?

Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.

UHURA
General, are YOU fond of Shakespeare?

He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh.
Chekov pursues -

CHEKOV
We do NOT impose democracy on others. We do believe that every planet has a sovereign claim to human rights.

AZETBUR
(spits)
"Human rights." Even the name is racist. The Federation is basically a "homo sapiens" only club...

SPOCK reacts to this. Chang is amused.

CHANG
Present company excepted, to be sure...

UHURA
Well, I suppose we're not perfect -

SCOTTY
(rising)
Don't let them put words in your mouth - ! I haven't served 30 years in the engine room of a starship to be accused of gunboat diplomacy!

KERLA
In any case, we know where this is leading: the annihilation of our culture. Klingons will replace those on the lowest rung of the Federation employment ladder, taking menial jobs and performing them for lower pay...

CHEKOV
That's economics, not racism -

UHURA
But you have to admit it adds up to the same thing.

BONES
Don't be naive, Commander -!

UHURA
Who you calling naive -?

Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.

CHEKOV
We're explorers not diplomats!

BONES
Starfleet's killed an awful lot of natural phenomena in the name of "exploration"...

SCOTTY
We follow orders...

CHEKOV
Since when has THAT been an excuse? Diplomacy must resolve these -

SCOTTY
Right - leave it to the politicians to muck it up and leave us defenseless...!

A COUGH interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon.
The Klingons conceal their amusement.

GORKON
(finally)
Well. I see we have a long way to go.

Reactions from Kirk and his officers.

Interestingly, the "Earth. Hitler. 1938," line wasn't in the original version. This isn't quite the final draft, though. Valeris is still called "Savaak," even though her introduction has already been changed to reflect that she's a new character.

 

[Plum]

^^^
Yea, that's messy.

Goes to show how talented people on a set can shake out the heart of a scene. At least, I might guess this is how the scene came out so well. I noticed the pacing in the script above is rather inverted from what we saw in the film.

 

[SmoothieX]

Wow, do they have the full scene on any of the DVD's?

The movie version is so sterile in comparison, one wonders why anyone gets mad.

 

[A beaker full of death]

SmoothieX said:
Wow, do they have the full scene on any of the DVD's?

There was no full scene; it was just take after take, line by line, until they had something they thought they could cobble together. Half the takes had someone saying "Star Trek" instead of "Starfleet."

 

[guardian]

A beaker full of death said:

SmoothieX said:
Wow, do they have the full scene on any of the DVD's?

There was no full scene; it was just take after take, line by line, until they had something they thought they could cobble together. Half the takes had someone saying "Star Trek" instead of "Starfleet."

Why not come out and make clear what you are saying?

Which I believe is--- the cast was so old and their acting so weak they couldn't even get through the scene without flubbing their lines, so no full scene exists.

Is that right??

 

[Plum]

^^^
Yea I'm not sure what you know Beaker. Take after take is how it's done, after all. The scene, in my mind, is another example of yet another excellent Trek scene.

SmoothieX said:
Wow, do they have the full scene on any of the DVD's?

The movie version is so sterile in comparison, one wonders why anyone gets mad.

They, the Klingons and the Feds, were already prejudiced against each other. The dialog demonstrated their differing views and bigotry (on both sides). This scene was about showing that. After all, comparing your dinner guests to a genocidal maniac like Hitler isn't exactly Emily Post.

 

[guardian]

^^^I've never read what he's implying, but I'm sure he'd fight to his last breath that it's true.

In any event, even if the scene were broken into many cuts because of 'bad' acting, they could have put together a more complete version.
The acting in what is in the movie is not bad.

The reason the scene was cut down was just the usual, "we have to get to the good (action) parts of the movie.

The trial scene of the movie was also butchered even more heavily and that had all 'good' actors Plummer, Shatner & Kelley & Dorn.

 

[Kolrad]

I think it's interesting that the original scene seems to have a lot more arguing among the Starfleet officers; there really isn't much more arguing between Klingons and Starfleet.

 

[HLecter MD]

I was disgusted how they made the Ent. crew as racist as an Alabama trailer park. The writers don't understand that when somebody is that racist they're incurable and will never see the errors of their ways as the crew eventually did. It would have been far more realistic to make the racism more subtle.

 

[Kolrad]

The only Enterprise crew members who seemed that racist were the two crewmen involved in the assassination plot along with Valeris.

The only instance of racism among the main characters that seemed over the top to me was Scotty's line about the chancellor's daughter.